The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[DeighAnn]

If all the ALIVE and remaining 'are ever with the Lord' then they must have put on immortality when they were 'changed'. 

Hopefully I am not going to far out on a limb to suggest that ANYONE who has taken the MARK aka the UNSAVED,  CAN'T BE AMONG THE GROUP to receive immortality. 

Wouldn't that mean that the UNSAVED must ALL DIE, to leave 'the alive and remaining' to be changed?  

Since 'the nations' are around for the Millennium,  WHEN DO THE UNSAVED RISE FOR THE MILLENNIUM?  IT WOULD SEEM THEY must rise at the beginning to be coming to the temple to worship and

To avenge 'those under the altar' wouldn't those who 'put them there' NEED TO BE PRESENT/RISEN to an incorruptible body at least?  Same for those fellowservants? 
Rev 6:9
And when He opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had held
(aka slaughtered because of the testimony they echoed)

10  And they were crying in a voice loud saying Until when O Lord holy and TRUE not do You judge AND AVENGE the blood of us from those dwelling upon the earth?

1556. ekdikeó ►
Strong's Concordance
ekdikeó: to vindicate, to avenge
Original Word: ἐκδικέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdikeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik-eh'-o)
Definition: to vindicate, to avenge
Usage: I give justice over, defend, avenge, vindicate.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1556 ekdikéō – to dispense justice, carrying a judgment completely through, i.e. with all that is appropriate to it. See 1557 (ekdikēsis).

11  And were given to them each robes white and it was said to them that they shall rest yet a time little until would be fulfilled also the fellow servants of them and the brothers of them those being about to be killed as also {had been} they
Wouldn't that require 'the church' to be present?



And wouldn't those who 'pierced' him need to be present to 'look upon Him'?  

Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

And wouldn't EVERY KNEE REQUIRE EVERYONE unsaved and all?
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Doesn't this state that ALL unsaved FLESH shall DIE when He returns? 
19:18
so that you may eat flesh of kings and flesh of commanders and flesh of mighty and flesh of horses and of those sitting on them and flesh OF ALL both free and slaves and small and great

3956. pas ►
Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

 

19:21  And the rest were killed with the sword of the {One} sitting on the horse having gone forth out of the mouth of him And all the birds were filled with the flesh of them
 

[George]

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Since 'the nations' are around for the Millennium,  WHEN DO THE UNSAVED RISE FOR THE MILLENNIUM? 

Just some Scripture ...

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 

Joh_6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 

As far as your question about who populates the world during the Millennial Kingdom, read Zechariah 14 carefully.

Zec 14:3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 

...

Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 

 

[Selah7]

So good to hear from you, @DeighAnn  

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV)

Okay, you and I have discussed this subject before, so let’s take it slowly, okay?   I’m sure we can agree that today in the world around us, we’ve got two groups of folks—those who are alive and those who have died and have passed on.  This applies to both good people and bad people—both the saved and the unsaved.  Do we agree so far?  

[Selah7]

4 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

So good to hear from you, @DeighAnn  

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV)

Okay, you and I have discussed this subject before, so let’s take it slowly, okay?   I’m sure we can agree that today in the world around us, we’ve got two groups of folks—those who are alive and those who have died and have passed on.  This applies to both good people and bad people—both the saved and the unsaved.  Do we agree so far?  

Where are those who have passed on?  

[Selah7]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring only to those who are saved (dead in Christ).  The unsaved (spiritually dead) who never had a chance to hear the Gospel will have the 1,000-year Millennium to either get it right and go into the second resurrection or not get it right and go into the second death (lake of fire).

Edited March 23, 2022 by Selah7

[Selah7]

@DeighAnn  Regarding your question about when the unsaved rise for the Millennium.  They rise at the same time everyone else does.  Remember, we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52)

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If all the ALIVE and remaining 'are ever with the Lord' then they must have put on immortality when they were 'changed'. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Correct. Those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) who are alive when He returns shall "put on immortaility" when they are "changed."

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hopefully I am not going to far out on a limb to suggest that ANYONE who has taken the MARK aka the UNSAVED,  CAN'T BE AMONG THE GROUP to receive immortality. 

No, you're correct.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Wouldn't that mean that the UNSAVED must ALL DIE, to leave 'the alive and remaining' to be changed?  

No. Here, you must remember that there will be other nations - the Gentiles of every race and nation - who will be physically alive and will be sent home, after the initial wars over Israel's Land.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Since 'the nations' are around for the Millennium,  WHEN DO THE UNSAVED RISE FOR THE MILLENNIUM?  IT WOULD SEEM THEY must rise at the beginning to be coming to the temple to worship ...

They will be present during the Millennium, but they won't need to rise from the dead because they never would have died, yet! They SHALL be present at the beginning of the Millennium to come to the Temple to worship before YHWH God.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

To avenge 'those under the altar' wouldn't those who 'put them there' NEED TO BE PRESENT/RISEN to an incorruptible body at least?  Same for those fellowservants? 
Rev 6:9
And when He opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had held
(aka slaughtered because of the testimony they echoed)

10  And they were crying in a voice loud saying Until when O Lord holy and TRUE not do You judge AND AVENGE the blood of us from those dwelling upon the earth?

1556. ekdikeó ►
Strong's Concordance
ekdikeó: to vindicate, to avenge
Original Word: ἐκδικέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdikeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik-eh'-o)
Definition: to vindicate, to avenge
Usage: I give justice over, defend, avenge, vindicate.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1556 ekdikéō – to dispense justice, carrying a judgment completely through, i.e. with all that is appropriate to it. See 1557 (ekdikēsis).

11  And were given to them each robes white and it was said to them that they shall rest yet a time little until would be fulfilled also the fellow servants of them and the brothers of them those being about to be killed as also {had been} they
Wouldn't that require 'the church' to be present?

There SHALL be a resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium and it will involve all those who belong to the Messiah! That's not just the "church" but is also the Children of Israel! THEY, TOO, belong to the Messiah! In fact, they FIRST belong to the Messiah! From such, He shall organize His Kingdom.

Didn't Yeshua` Himself say through a parable (Luke 19:11-27),

Luke 19:11-15, 26-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (Yeshua` the Messiah) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, 'Occupy (Trade) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens (the scribes and Pharisees and priests) hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
... 

26 "For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!" ?

So, the scribes and Pharisees and priests against Yeshua` in the 1st Century are not out of the woods, yet! They SHALL stand trial before Him!

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And wouldn't those who 'pierced' him need to be present to 'look upon Him'?  

Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

They SHALL be present! As I said, they, too, will participate in the Resurrection when the Lord Yeshua` haMashiyach returns and establishes His Kingdom. Ezekiel 37 is NOT "representative" of anything else! It is LITERALLY talking about Israel's Resurrection!

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

 

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And wouldn't EVERY KNEE REQUIRE EVERYONE unsaved and all?
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And so, they SHALL be present and indeed, EVERY KNEE shall bow to YHWH God and His King, Yeshua`, the Messiah! Furthermore, since it is mentioned in Romans 14:12, the JOB of a King of Israel is to be a SUPREME COURT JUDGE! The "Judgment Seat of Christ" or the "Judgment Seat of the Messiah" is not "in Heaven"; it will be RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH IN JERUSALEM when YHWH God and His Son, Yeshua` haMashiyach vaMelekh, Jesus the Messiah and the King, shall reign!

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't this state that ALL unsaved FLESH shall DIE when He returns? 
19:18
so that you may eat flesh of kings and flesh of commanders and flesh of mighty and flesh of horses and of those sitting on them and flesh OF ALL both free and slaves and small and great

3956. pas ►
Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

No, ma'am. "All" is frequently qualified in Scripture. It depends on "all of WHAT or of WHOM." These mentioned in Revelation 19:18 are talking about the warriors who come to the War for Israel ending with the Battle at Har-Megiddown. "All of the WARRIORS, great and small." And, THEY, particularly those who are in charge, will be the ones who stand accountable at the Judgment of the Sheep and Goat nations. It will be a WAR TRIBUNAL against those who participated in the War for Israel, and it will be a WAR TRIBUNAL against NATIONS, not necessarily the people within the nations.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

19:21  And the rest were killed with the sword of the {One} sitting on the horse having gone forth out of the mouth of him And all the birds were filled with the flesh of them

Yes, the "rest of the WARRIORS who participated in the war and the battles!"

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, George said:

Just some Scripture ...

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 

Joh_6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Shalom, George!

I should just like to point out that the "last day" is a very LONG day, a 1,000-year day, because the "SUN of Righteousness" shall be reigning in Jerusalem! There shall be general resurrections at the beginning and at the end of this long day - the Resurrection of life or the Resurrection of the Justified, and the Resurrection of damnation or the Resurrection of the unjust. However, remember, too, that Yeshua` said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life!" There will be individual resurrections throughout this very LONG day, as He shall be the JUDGE of all the earth! He shall not be bound by anyone's death. If they unjustly died at the hand of another, He can restore that life!

His Kingdom is said to start out small - like the grain of a mustard seed. But then, it is said to grow until it becomes a tree large enough for the birds of the air to make their nests within its branches! He is the "stone that is cut out of the mountain without hands" that "grows until it becomes a great mountain!" Its influence starts out small, like a cake of leaven within three measures of wheat (flour dough). But, its influence grows until it PERMEATES the dough causing all to rise! (Matthew 13).

9 hours ago, George said:

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 

As far as your question about who populates the world during the Millennial Kingdom, read Zechariah 14 carefully.

Zec 14:3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 

...

Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 

 

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't this state that ALL unsaved FLESH shall DIE when He returns? 
19:18
so that you may eat flesh of kings and flesh of commanders and flesh of mighty and flesh of horses and of those sitting on them and flesh OF ALL both free and slaves and small and great

3956. pas ►
Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

 

Not exactly. It's the flesh of all who died, not all will die and their flesh eaten. It's also likely the flesh of all in the sense of all walks of life or status, equally, no distinctions between the lowest and highest.

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Wouldn't that mean that the UNSAVED must ALL DIE, to leave 'the alive and remaining' to be changed?  

All the alive and remaining in Christ.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Since 'the nations' are around for the Millennium,  WHEN DO THE UNSAVED RISE FOR THE MILLENNIUM?  IT WOULD SEEM THEY must rise at the beginning to be coming to the temple to worship

If you're talking about the 2nd resurrection, this isn't it, that's after the millennium. Zech 14 says there are some left of the nations that fought against Jerusalem, they are compelled to come up and worship year on year. 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

To avenge 'those under the altar' wouldn't those who 'put them there' NEED TO BE PRESENT/RISEN to an incorruptible body at least?  Same for those fellowservants? 
Rev 6:9
And when He opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had held
(aka slaughtered because of the testimony they echoed)

10  And they were crying in a voice loud saying Until when O Lord holy and TRUE not do You judge AND AVENGE the blood of us from those dwelling upon the earth?

1556. ekdikeó ►
Strong's Concordance
ekdikeó: to vindicate, to avenge
Original Word: ἐκδικέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdikeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik-eh'-o)
Definition: to vindicate, to avenge
Usage: I give justice over, defend, avenge, vindicate.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1556 ekdikéō – to dispense justice, carrying a judgment completely through, i.e. with all that is appropriate to it. See 1557 (ekdikēsis).

Not if this is in the GT and the wrath that follows. The above isn't the millennium, it's before that.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

11  And were given to them each robes white and it was said to them that they shall rest yet a time little until would be fulfilled also the fellow servants of them and the brothers of them those being about to be killed as also {had been} they
Wouldn't that require 'the church' to be present?

Yes, in GT.