Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[Anne2]

10 hours ago, George said:

This is what I said in a different thread ...

One must be careful of how the term Israel is used.  For example, when Paul says, Israel -- brethren of my flesh, in Romans 9-11 ... this is talking about the Jewish people!  

But at the same time, Paul writes to the Galatian church ... and uses the terminology ... Israel of God!

Galatians 6:15-16  For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 

We realize that there's a grafting into Abraham's seed ... connected to the PROMISES of Abraham given to those who believe.

Galatians 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.  

In this passage in Galatians, you can see that Paul is referring to the Israel of God.  However, there is still a distinction in the flesh ... as Paul writes to the church in Ephesus,

Ephesians 2:11-12  Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—  remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 

So Paul is encouraging the Church in Ephesus ... that they have been JOINED to the PROMISES of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

Ephesians 2:13-22  But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.  And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.  For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,  built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,  in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.  In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. 

That God is working to CREATE ONE NEW MAN out of the TWO -- Jew and Gentile, which Paul would refer to as the "Israel of God."

Notice what it says in Ephesians 3 ...

Ephesians 3:4-6  When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.  This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 

Gentiles are FELLOW HEIRS ... they DIDN'T REPLACE ISRAEL ... the JOINED to the COVENANTS given to Abraham! 

The grafting in of the nations to the promises of Israel was such a revelation even the Angels look into what God is doing!

 

 We who are in Jesus the Christ are fellow heirs in the promises made to OUR FATHER ABRAHAM. Why are distinguishing this out to Israel? That seems to me to be a misplacement theology is all. We are sharing in the same promise. It is the place of BOTH Jew and Gentile, which in times past, neither Jew nor Gentile were allowed into the very house itself. Do you believe Jews have a or are a distinct priesthood, like the set apart status of the priesthood had under the law above the people? 

Ephesians says both have access to the household of the saints. Jews apart from the Sons of Arron, or being a son of Levi could not enter into the house of God itself. They were strangers there.

Israel is not the household of the saints, it is the temple ministers. from the tribe of Levi, according to the order of Aaron.

Isrealites were "strangers" 02114 zuwr (estranged) from the house of God itself.

Nu 1:51  And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:10  And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38  But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

02114 זור zuwr zoor

a primitive root; v; [BDB-266a, BDB-266b] {See TWOT on 541}

AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77

1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated 

They were Holy (saints) 02623 beyond the people in God's house.

02623 חסיד chaciyd khaw-seed’

from 02616; adj; [BDB-339b] {See TWOT on 698 @@ "698b"}

AV-saints 19, holy 3, merciful 3, godly 2, good 1, godly man 1, Holy One 1, holy one 1, ungodly + 03808 1; 32

1) faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious
1a) kind
1b) pious, godly
1c) faithful ones (subst) 

De 33:8  And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
Are you saying they maintain a higher holiness above their fellow heirs?

Edited April 3, 2022 by Anne2

[George]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Do you believe Jews have a or are a distinct priesthood, like the set apart status of the priesthood had under the law above the people? 

Nope .. I have always simply said that Gentiles are joining to the promises and covenants of Israel.  Jew and Gentile are part of the same priesthood of Melchizedek.

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Israel is not the household of the saints, it is the temple ministers. from the tribe of Levi, according to the order of Aaron.

Levi was the tribe that had no land inheritance.  

Israel is a word that can be semantically used in many ways and be careful of labelling Israel with only 1 definition.

Israel was Jacob's name ... later Israel comprised the 12 Tribes of Israel ... later it was simply the Northern Kingdom of Israel (Judah, Benjamin and Levi formed the Kingdom of Judah), this Southern Kingdom of Judah birthed the "Jewish nation" that we see in Jesus' day ... later seen in today's world.  Then you have Paul use the term "Israel of God".
 

Galatians 6:14  But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.  For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.  And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 

Be blessed! 

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, George said:

Nope .. I have always simply said that Gentiles are joining to the promises and covenants of Israel.  Jew and Gentile are part of the same priesthood of Melchizedek.

Levi was the tribe that had no land inheritance.  

Israel is a word that can be semantically used in many ways and be careful of labelling Israel with only 1 definition.

Israel was Jacob's name ... later Israel comprised the 12 Tribes of Israel ... later it was simply the Northern Kingdom of Israel (Judah, Benjamin and Levi formed the Kingdom of Judah), this Southern Kingdom of Judah birthed the "Jewish nation" that we see in Jesus' day ... later seen in today's world.  Then you have Paul use the term "Israel of God".
 

Galatians 6:14  But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.  For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.  And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 

Be blessed! 

Good George. I asked because some do teach a distinction with the priesthood within the Church(Kinzer, and some others come to mind). Concerning the Levites I was going to mention that but my post was going long so I did not. From which covenant promise do you think the inheritance came? They had no inheritance in the land with the twelve tribes, but their inheritance was the priesthood, the lord, tithes, etc. Taken instead of the firstborn, for their redemption. But was changeable apart from the oath. As Christians it is incumbent upon us to be merciful and Just. The nations concerning Israel will suffer God's wrath in accordance with how they treat Israel. In the land or among us in our own nations. That is the wrath we of the nations escape IMO. No different than the remnant in Apostolic days. Jew's were being saved from the coming wrath, and the collective nature of sin. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Anne2

[George]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:08 PM, tim_from_pa said:

So you are saying that this passage refers to Gentiles as opposed to Jacob's physical seed?  Yet, earlier you were claiming we are joined to the blessings of Israel  (that which was promised to a physical seed) and yet Gentiles who are not related are the actual ones to inherit this birthright? Is that what I am hearing here?  Or what do you mean?

To clarify, the passage refers to Jacob's physical seed (the Jewish people's right to the land) and through Jacob's physical seed came Yeshua who opened the inheritance promised to Jacob to the Gentiles who also believed.  The Gentiles have JOINED to the covenant promises of Israel through their belief in the Jewish Messiah. [Ephesians 2].  As of now, Jacob's physical seed through UNBELIEF has been broken off of their promises [though a remnant never were broken off because of their belief in the Messiah], and in the FUTURE the Lord will ONCE AGAIN pour out His Spirit [Zechariah 12:10; Ezekiel 37] to RESTORE the Jewish people spiritually so that in the FUTURE the ISRAEL of GOD will comprise both Jew and Gentile who BELIEVE in the Son of God that was offered for them.  This Israel of God in the future, will inherit the land from Egypt to the Euphrates and bring forth the Messiah's Kingdom for 1,000 years to fulfill the promises given to Abraham, Issac and Jacob.  As well as fulfill the promises given to David, and fulfill the prophecies of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Psalms, etc...

EVERY PROMISE MUST BE FULFILLED! 

[tim_from_pa]

18 hours ago, George said:

To clarify, the passage refers to Jacob's physical seed (the Jewish people's right to the land) and through Jacob's physical seed came Yeshua who opened the inheritance promised to Jacob to the Gentiles who also believed.  The Gentiles have JOINED to the covenant promises of Israel through their belief in the Jewish Messiah. [Ephesians 2].  As of now, Jacob's physical seed through UNBELIEF has been broken off of their promises [though a remnant never were broken off because of their belief in the Messiah], and in the FUTURE the Lord will ONCE AGAIN pour out His Spirit [Zechariah 12:10; Ezekiel 37] to RESTORE the Jewish people spiritually so that in the FUTURE the ISRAEL of GOD will comprise both Jew and Gentile who BELIEVE in the Son of God that was offered for them.  This Israel of God in the future, will inherit the land from Egypt to the Euphrates and bring forth the Messiah's Kingdom for 1,000 years to fulfill the promises given to Abraham, Issac and Jacob.  As well as fulfill the promises given to David, and fulfill the prophecies of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Psalms, etc...

EVERY PROMISE MUST BE FULFILLED! 

OK, we are on the same page here then.  I agree that's to the physical seed.  This is called the birthright.  While the birthright can be withheld due to disobedience, this passage requires that his seed become many nations, a great nation, and lineage of multiple Kings reigning at the same time.  Solomon was pretty good but... this promise is greater.

[Anne2]

5 minutes ago, tim_from_pa said:

OK, we are on the same page here then.  I agree that's to the physical seed.  This is called the birthright.  While the birthright can be withheld due to disobedience, this passage requires that his seed become many nations, a great nation, and lineage of multiple Kings reigning at the same time.  Solomon was pretty good but... this promise is greater.

Hasn't it already been accomplished?

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: {peculiar: or, purchased } {praises: or, virtues }

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {written: or, enrolled} 

 

[tim_from_pa]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

Hasn't it already been accomplished?

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: {peculiar: or, purchased } {praises: or, virtues }

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {written: or, enrolled} 

 

That's one nation where Peter is alluding to Exodus 19.  Christ and the church is not the fulfillment of many nations. The church is Kings and Priests (Revelation 1:6) although even that is not the fulfillment of this Genesis 35 passage since Kings had to come from his own body. And Genesis 35 (the promise of many descendants and nations) was passed on as the birthright, i.e. to those by right of birth.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, tim_from_pa said:

That's one nation where Peter is alluding to Exodus 19.  Christ and the church is not the fulfillment of many nations. The church is Kings and Priests (Revelation 1:6) although even that is not the fulfillment of this Genesis 35 passage since Kings had to come from his own body. And Genesis 35 (the promise of many descendants and nations) was passed on as the birthright, i.e. to those by right of birth.

 

Who is through Sarah.

 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 

Rom 16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

 

It is not as though the Word of God is without effect.

Rom 9:5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 

Hebrews says Isaac and Jacob are heirs with Abraham, in the same promise?

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Anne2

[WilliamL]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:52 PM, George said:

Psa 110:5  The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. 

Psa 110:6  He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth.

Rev 19:18  to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 

Rev 19:15  From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...

Rev 19:16  On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 

I'm not sure which Psalm 110 you are reading ... but mine corresponds PERFECTLY with Revelation 19!

Indeed it does.

The prophecies of Isaiah 63 and 34 are very relevant to this discussion. Note the following:

Isaiah 63:3 KJV I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Compare to Rev. 19 --

19:13 He was clothed with a robe having been stained [this verb is a perfect passive participle] in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

There is no blood-shedding in heaven, so these events are to take place on earth. 

A detailed account of these things may be found here:

19. When Does the Lord Smite Edom?

Details Latter-Day events upon earth, including the Lord’s punishment of Edom, that are little understood by the Church.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1135-when-does-the-lord-smite-edom/

 

[tim_from_pa]

Let me summarize about Israel:  Man, created in God's image was to be ruler over this earth.  instead, he fell to Satan's lie and sold himself to Satan as master to which he has to be bought back (i.e. redeemed).  The whole salvation process is about bringing mankind back to what he was supposed to become and as some insightful people noticed, Revelation is the reversal process of Genesis.  Enter Israel.  In order to set up the Kingdom of God, The Lord had to call certain people from which a nation would come to bring on God's Kingdom (and Messiah) for mankind's redemption. This Kingdom was how it was also supposed to be without the sin.  The Law was revealed as well to show the standards of righteousness for this Kingdom. Those standards are still with us today.  Israel was to become a light to the nations to bring that to people.  They failed, but only to show that while the standards are right, we cannot do it alone without God.  The ceremony of the Law was to bring us to Christ (i.e. foreshadow Christ).  It was God's plan to reveal things in this manner to bring on the new Adam by which this Kingdom can ultimately be established.

It is worthy to note how this Kingdom would come about and how it is structured:  there are at least 10 major promises to Abraham for this Kingdom involving becoming a great people, a great nation, a multitude of nations, many Kings, militarily mighty by controlling the gates of his enemies, blessings of all sorts of resources and so forth.  There are 3 tribes mentioned that have significant promises:  Levi has the priesthood.  Judah has the Kingly lineage (thus ultimately the Messiah) and Joseph has the birthright of becoming many nations and peoples.  Jesus is from Judah, of course, and the small church (Christians) all whom will rule and reign over the rest, including all of Joseph and as Paul said, Abraham would be heir of the entire world.  That's because the Kingdom of God will entail the whole world.

When Jesus returns, then the Kingdom will ultimately be realized, and it will be based, and indeed an extension of what was patterned in Israel.  The bible is a book about Israel and the Kingdom of God restoring what man lost by his fall. Israel is God's Kingdom over the world but only perfected by the forgiveness of sin, and proper ruling by Christ.

All that said, this only takes us to the prophetic feast of Tabernacles (the Millennium). There's one more feast where people will be raised, saved and/or judged:  the last Great Day (John 7:37) to usher in the new heavens and earth.  The important thing to remember is that even during the Millennium, we are still in this present earth age but under the reign of Messiah and his Church being a light to this world.  After that there is a new heaven and earth.  That's the ultimate Kingdom.