You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This was what was claimed to be the Last Trump which does not exist in the Old Testament or even in Jewish fables...I talked to a guy on a jewish discussion board and asked him if he knew of any Last Trumpet in any of their practices..he knew of nothing like that..I read a book called The Last Trumpet allegedly claiming it was common among Jews to blow what they called ''the Last Trump...' it had no evidence of any of this...the feast of trumpets had no 'last trumpet' in any of what was instructed for them to do...it was blowing of trumpets with no instructions of any kind that one was to blown first or last...

You just want to dodge the facts brother. I wouldn't be asking a Jew about anything to do with God unless he was a Christian, they are just like the rest of the world, of Satan, if they are not of Jesus.

You not knowing the Feast of Trumps ends the Summer Harvest is in you. How come you can see them all but THE ONE you do not want to see, the Rapture ends with the Fast of Trumps so Ohhh, I can't see that !! Its called tunnel vision, we see what we wan to see it seems. I know an article by an UNKNOWN AUTHOR about these 7 Feasts and how they correlate to the Church.

The Jewish Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be literally fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and Romans 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the Bride, and Leah's Children.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became spiritually adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise His name, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Jews and Gentiles, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (I Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of First-fruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been literally fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz, the Jew, was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

Boaz gave Ruth six measures of barley. A measure of barley was a day’s wages. (Revelation 6:6). I think this is a picture of mankind being paid for six millennial days’ work. The Bride, or the Church, will not have to struggle after six millennial days or six thousand years. According to Biblical chronology, it has been about six thousand years.

The six measures of barley were also part of the traditional Jewish wedding Bride price. Boaz said, “Do not go to your mother-in-law empty-handed.”

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - I Corinthians 6:20

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

“in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” - Ephesians 1:13-14

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter two, to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (I Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply. It would take a book to address every point you made, so I'm hoping you will allow me to deal with what we were discussing - whether or not the innumerable company of Revelation 7:9-17 passed through the Great Tribulation. The difficulty is not great. It all hangs on the article "THE", which the King James omits, but which every other renown translation includes. This is the dilemma.

Nothing hinges on ONE WORD (THE) brother, God tells us to study the bible Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. 

I showed you why those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT be from the 70th week and all you got as a comeback is THE, come on brother. 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Pre Raptured Church. Those who hinge everything on a mid or post raptured church can just never grasp to the full facts it seems.

You can't overcome the 5th Seal Saints and Rev. 20:4. So I will not reargue that ground which I have already won. 

Lets go onto the Seals, did you know they DO NOTHING? They are not Judgments. The Seals are Jesus PROPHESYING what is about to befall mankind when the Trumpets hit in Rev. 8. Seals 1-5 are all the Anti-Christs coming 42 months of actions against mankind. He 1.) He goes forth Conquering for 42 months, 2.) He Brings War (takes away peace) for 42 months 3.) His Wars and Decrees bring Famine 4.) His Tyrant Rule brings 42 months of Death/Sickness/Hades or the grave. 5.) He Martyrs many Saints over 42 months.

6.) In Seal #6 God's Wrath falls for 42 months, we can see THE DARKNESS via Trumpet #4, it fulfills both the 6th Seal here and Joel 2:31.

Satan  tells the Anti-Christ (he hears Dark Sentences Dan. 8:23-25) to WAIT until the Wrath of God falls (Asteroid seen in Rev. 8) before he goes forth, thus 1/3 of the world is on fire. The New World (North & South America) has exactly 1/3 of the worlds landmass and the Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of the worlds water !! So, IMHO, the USA is destroyed by this Asteroid, after the Rapture of the Church. So, he waits, then goes forth conquering amidst the chaos. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Heaven_Bound said:

A lot of wonderful information you've offered to us and Thank You for that.   I enjoyed the read.   But Nowhere in Scripture do we find anything about a Pre-Trib Rapture.   Even Paul discusses the Second Coming of the Lord, where the dead in Christ and the Living are caught up, and this fits perfectly with Yeshua's description in Matthew 24, and fit with Revelation Chapter 16.

 

You really have to [[contort Scripture]] to add, and that is what you're doing, you are ADDING your theology into Scripture that does not anywhere confirm your beliefs. 

No brother, I have been doing this for 37 yeas, the Pre Trib Rapture is very easy to see, it can be nothing else. Matt. 24:4-14 is the Church Age, everything after verse 14 is the 70th week. 

2 Thess. 2 is the DEPARTURE of the Church, not a falling away. We are Raptured at the same time as the Dead in Christ Jesus, before the 70th week, those Saints seen in the 70th week are the 5 Virgins who missed the Rapture because they were not prepared. 

We see the Church is Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10 BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals. We see the Church in Rev. 19 marring the Lamb in Heaven, then we return with Jesus and guess who is still on this earth? The Beas and all his minions whom Jesus will slay. The problem is way to many people do not understand Eschatology. Its been my calling for 37 years. God Bless.

[transmogrified]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Old Testament saints of Matthew 27:52. Notice the grammar.

50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Yes, they came out after his resurrection.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But note that although the graves were opened, the Old Testament saints only came out AFTER Jesus arose.

 yes, many of the saints which slept arose 

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But the reason for the company of saints is because God, the Lord of the harvest, decreed that His portion was a "SHEAF" of the firstfruits. So our Lord Jesus, the Individual "EAR" of Wheat maintains His preeminence BUT is part of a SHEAF.

Paul said 'Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' not 'Christ and some saints the first fruits...' 

These people did not go into heaven...they went in to Jerusalem and were seen of many....they died again just like Lazarus was resurrected in a mortal body and died again...These saints who were in the graves who came forth after Christ's resurrection belonged to God, and God had given all his saints to Jesus...Jesus said 'Of all which you have given me  I will lose nothing, but will raise him up at the last day...' 

These were resurrected, but they did not receive immortal bodies nor go to heaven. Timothy said Jesus is the only one who has immortality..he wrote this after the resurrection of these saints...He did not say Jesus only has immortality but also the saints who were resurrected after Jesus arose have immortality too. 

Paul said 'we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...' not 'I show you a mystery...some have already been changed before the last trump, and there will be some others changed before the tribulation at the last trump, and then there will be some others changed on the last day after the first last trump sounds...'

And Jesus did not say 'Of all which God has given me I will lose nothing, but I will raise some of them after my resurrection, then the rest of them at my coming on the last day.."

'They that are Christ's' are not just Old Testament saints...'they that are Christ's means those saints which belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming, which means all the saints will be resurrected at his coming, for they all belong to him.

The last day when Jesus raises the believers can not be construed to take place in intervals and still be said to happen at the last trump...the last trump is a specific point in time...it only sounds one time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord...the last trump did not sound when these saints arose after the resurrection of Jesus, and then will sound again at the pre trib rapture, and then sound again at the Second Coming...it is another gospel...it is not the gospel Paul preached...At the 7th trumpet is when the dead are judged and rewarded...not at three intervals...some after Jesus rose, some before the tribulation and the rest at the Last trumpet...It would be different if Jesus, Paul and John had said they would be raised at intervals, but but they didn't...

Who is resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th Trump?

1) Thy servants the prophets...

Pre trib note: Except new testament prophets who died after Pentecost and before the tribulation because they would have  already been resurrected before this.

2) The saints:

Pre trib note: Only Old Testament saints and tribulation saints, and the two witnesses, but not including saints from Pentecost until the tribulation...

3) Those that fear his name, both small and great:

Pre trib note: Not those that feared his name, both small and great from the time of Pentecost until the tribulation, but just those that feared his name in the Old Testament, and those that feared his name during the tribulation, and then the two witnesses that feared his name..." 

These are all adding to the text...Jesus did not make these distinctions...Paul did not make these distinctions, and John did not make these distinctions..the only reason these distinctions are made is to accommodate another resurrection before the tribulation...eliminate that and all these scriptures mean exactly what they say....

What is going on here is the same as what Jesus said to the Pharisees... He said 'Here is what you are saying...here is what the scripture says...' This is the same thing: Here is what Pre trib says...and here is what scripture says...' 

 

Jesus, John and Paul were not mistaken...they all said the same thing....none of them had an additional resurrection before the last day, before the last trump, before the 7th trump, nor was there anyone saying it would be in intervals...they all said the opposite..

Blessings to you- Gary

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, they came out after his resurrection.

 yes, many of the saints which slept arose 

Paul said 'Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' not 'Christ and some saints the first fruits...' 

These people did not go into heaven...they went in to Jerusalem and were seen of many....they died again just like Lazarus was resurrected in a mortal body and died again...These saints who were in the graves who came forth after Christ's resurrection belonged to God, and God had given all his saints to Jesus...Jesus said 'Of all which you have given me  I will lose nothing, but will raise him up at the last day...' 

These were resurrected, but they did not receive immortal bodies nor go to heaven. Timothy said Jesus is the only one who has immortality..he wrote this after the resurrection of these saints...He did not say Jesus only has immortality but also the saints who were resurrected after Jesus arose have immortality too. 

Paul said 'we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...' not 'I show you a mystery...some have already been changed before the last trump, and there will be some others changed before the tribulation at the last trump, and then there will be some others changed on the last day after the first last trump sounds...'

And Jesus did not say 'Of all which God has given me I will lose nothing, but I will raise some of them after my resurrection, then the rest of them at my coming on the last day.."

'They that are Christ's' are not just Old Testament saints...'they that are Christ's means those saints which belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming, which means all the saints will be resurrected at his coming, for they all belong to him.

The last day when Jesus raises the believers can not be construed to take place in intervals and still be said to happen at the last trump...the last trump is a specific point in time...it only sounds one time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord...the last trump did not sound when these saints arose after the resurrection of Jesus, and then will sound again at the pre trib rapture, and then sound again at the Second Coming...it is another gospel...it is not the gospel Paul preached...At the 7th trumpet is when the dead are judged and rewarded...not at three intervals...some after Jesus rose, some before the tribulation and the rest at the Last trumpet...It would be different if Jesus, Paul and John had said they would be raised at intervals, but but they didn't...

Who is resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th Trump?

1) Thy servants the prophets...

Pre trib note: Except new testament prophets who died after Pentecost and before the tribulation because they would have  already been resurrected before this.

2) The saints:

Pre trib note: Only Old Testament saints and tribulation saints, and the two witnesses, but not including saints from Pentecost until the tribulation...

3) Those that fear his name, both small and great:

Pre trib note: Not those that feared his name, both small and great from the time of Pentecost until the tribulation, but just those that feared his name in the Old Testament, and those that feared his name during the tribulation, and then the two witnesses that feared his name..." 

These are all adding to the text...Jesus did not make these distinctions...Paul did not make these distinctions, and John did not make these distinctions..the only reason these distinctions are made is to accommodate another resurrection before the tribulation...eliminate that and all these scriptures mean exactly what they say....

What is going on here is the same as what Jesus said to the Pharisees... He said 'Here is what you are saying...here is what the scripture says...' This is the same thing: Here is what Pre trib says...and here is what scripture says...' 

 

Jesus, John and Paul were not mistaken...they all said the same thing....none of them had an additional resurrection before the last day, before the last trump, before the 7th trump, nor was there anyone saying it would be in intervals...they all said the opposite..

Blessings to you- Gary

Thank you for your reply. You have answered at length about the resurrected dying and going to heaven. But this was not even mentioned in my posting. I presented a reason why some Old Testament saints came out their graves "after" Jesus. This you never addressed.

But blessings from our Lord Jesus upon you too.

[Keras]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Paul said 'Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' not 'Christ and some saints the first fruits...' 

But Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that the only dead people raised when Jesus Returns, will be the GT martyrs. 

You deny clearly stated scripture to think otherwise. 

Your whole theory of a pre-trib rapture, is wrong and can never happen.  And no one goes to heaven, Jesus said so: John 3:13      After the Millennium, God and therefore; heaven come to the earth to be with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

[transmogrified]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:34 AM, AdHoc said:

At Christ's death, two things happened. (1) The Veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom, indicating that it was God above Who tore it. It was proof the the way to the Holy of Holies was free through Christ's broken body (Heb.10:20). (2) Graves were opened by an earthquake. But note that although the graves were opened, the Old Testament saints only came out AFTER Jesus arose. This sequence is to uphold our Lord's PREEMINENCE in all things (Col.1:18).

But the reason for the company of saints is because God, the Lord of the harvest, decreed that His portion was a "SHEAF" of the firstfruits. So our Lord Jesus, the Individual "EAR" of Wheat maintains His preeminence BUT is part of a SHEAF.

Hi AdHoc...

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore any of your post as to why they came out after Jesus resurrection...but these are not in the first resurrection sequence of 'Christ the First fruits. afterward they that are Christ's at this coming..' This first resurrection is the resurrection  unto immortality...these that rose after Christ's resurrection did not raise to immortality..they were raised in mortal bodies, went in to Jerusalem and died again...just like Lazarus or Tabitha they were raised but yet died again and are now waiting the resurrection at the last day when all the saints will be raised to immortality...

Here is the sequence for the first resurrection.    "Christ the first fruits, afterward those who belong to Christ at his coming"....also stated this way 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...'

These did not fit the criteria...1) the last trumpet did not sound...2) These were not changed into immortality...3) it was not all the saints

This is not the end of the age harvest...as there is only one harvest unto immortality, those raised after Christ's resurrection are not 'the second gathering,' they are not in the gathering at all...they will be in our gathering together unto him on the last day at the 7th trump...they are waiting for the gathering yet to come...

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

But Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that the only dead people raised when Jesus Returns, will be the GT martyrs. 

 

Yes, the tribulation saints will be raised on the last day...the 12 disciples have been dead for about 2000 years and yet Jesus said they would sit on throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel during the 1000 years...

How did they get there if the were not resurrected?

8 hours ago, Keras said:

Your whole theory of a pre-trib rapture, is wrong and can never happen. 

I do not believe in a pre trib rapture.

Blessings to you 

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi AdHoc...

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore any of your post as to why they came out after Jesus resurrection...but these are not in the first resurrection sequence of 'Christ the First fruits. afterward they that are Christ's at this coming..' This first resurrection is the resurrection  unto immortality...these that rose after Christ's resurrection did not raise to immortality..they were raised in mortal bodies, went in to Jerusalem and died again...just like Lazarus or Tabitha they were raised but yet died again and are now waiting the resurrection at the last day when all the saints will be raised to immortality...

Here is the sequence for the first resurrection.    "Christ the first fruits, afterward those who belong to Christ at his coming"....also stated this way 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...'

These did not fit the criteria...1) the last trumpet did not sound...2) These were not changed into immortality...3) it was not all the saints

This is not the end of the age harvest...as there is only one harvest unto immortality, those raised after Christ's resurrection are not 'the second gathering,' they are not in the gathering at all...they will be in our gathering together unto him on the last day at the 7th trump...they are waiting for the gathering yet to come...

Blessings to you- Gary

Thank you for the reply. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ. Hebrews 9:27 is emphatic. God has ordained a man to die once. There is not a single recorded case of a man dying twice. If Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus are bodily in heaven, there is no reason why those already resurrected are not bodily there. In fact, when Christ orders His angels to gather Israel in Matthew 24:31, He includes "heaven". So also Jeremiah 49:36. Israel is scattered to the four winds of heaven, but the remainder of the verse gives the destination as "the nations".

I am aware that your belief is widely held, but it has no scriptural support. The opposite is the case. In Luke 20:27 the Sadducees proposed a problem to trick Jesus. Their example came from the Law. Thus, the man in question was an Israelite. And we know from Daniel 12:2 that "many" will be raised after the Great Tribulation. They who are raised from the dust "attain to THAT (Messianic) age" of 1,000 years. In Luke 20 :35-36 our Lord affirmed that resurrected men cannot die again.

Again, at the White Throne, all resurrected are "the rest of the dead". Not one can die again because "death is defeated". If a resurrected man  could die again, death would not be "defeated".

Thus, the plain words of Hebrews 9:27, PLUS the other proofs, PLUS no recorded case of a man dying twice, preclude any doctrine that says a man can die twice.

There is more evidence when we examine the cause of death from Romans 5, and 1st Peter 4, but it would make the posting long.

Go-well bro.

[transmogrified]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:33 AM, AdHoc said:

If Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus are bodily in heaven, there is no reason why those already resurrected are not bodily there.

This is the major error....Enoch and Elijah are not bodily in heaven...Jesus said no one has ascended up into heaven and that he is the only one who has immortality...Jesus is the first to rise and be glorified...if Enoch or Elijah were there before him, he would not be the first...Jesus said no one has ascended up into heaven hundreds of years after Enoch and Elijah. 

Elijah can be shown to still be alive on the earth after his being lifted up in the whirlwind...He wrote a letter to King Jehoram some 8 years after this reproving Jehoram of his evil deeds showing he was still on the earth. It is not said where Enoch was translated to, but according to Jesus he did not ascend up into heaven nor would he have an immortal body

Jesus could not have been said to be the first fruits if there was someone who was glorified before him.

Timothy also said Jesus was the only one who had immortality..but taking Hebrews 9:27 as anything outside of a general rule excepting supernatural intervention would put not only make the above scriptures untrue, but it would eliminate any idea of those who are alive and remaining ascending up..for it specifically says 'We shall not all sleep...' The contradiction: "We shall not all sleep...' versus 'it is appointed unto man once to die..'

One says we must all die, the other says we will not all die...This is miraculous intervention. He is depicting the natural order from the beginning compared to the supernatural...in the course of nature it would be impossible for anyone to rise from the dead..there is nothing in nature that would take dirt and assemble it back into a working body and introduce life into it..there is nothing in nature that can take our mortal bodies subject to death and transform them into immortal bodies, much less do this in a twinkle of an eye.

Saying these people who resurrected never died leads to impossible conclusions...no one  has immortality and no one has ascended up into heaven, therefore the only body they could be in is a mortal body which would mean they were still here somewhere on the earth being thousands of years old....No...they were raised back in mortal bodies...if by 'not dying' it is meant that their spirit returned to God and still alive, then there is nothing different about them than everyone else...

Dying twice is also not a normal situation...but if no one has immortality except Jesus, then they were raised in a mortal body and mortal bodies die...that is the definition of 'mortal' ...it means subject to death...

On 4/15/2022 at 3:33 AM, AdHoc said:

In Luke 20 :35-36 our Lord affirmed that resurrected men cannot die again.

Yes, indeed...as he said:

Quote

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

They were pointing to the time when the man was going to be resurrected by saying 'in the resurrection.' This is the resurrection unto immortality, so yes, when they get THAT body they will never die again...but if they don't have that body, then they are subject to death...the point is, people will not get that body until the last trumpet sounds as Paul said...we will all be changed at the last trump...no one has been changed yet. 

Blessings to you-