My Faith Is Severely Shaken (Again)

[TJGospels]

7 hours ago, ayin jade said:

If I may ask ... what do you see as the point of attending church?

Is it about connections to people? Is it about worshipping the Lord? What is it that you want from attending a church?

 

At this point? It's not clear to me. After reading Pagan Christianity, what's clear is almost all of the practices of the modern church are rooted more in paganism and secularism than the Bible. 

In so many cases the "pastors" set such a low standard they are not anywhere near worthy of being regarded as role models or as sources of wisdom, about the Bible which is supposedly their area of expertise, and certainly not in other important matters where it is safe to dismiss their views completely. 

In researching other churches, there is a staggering sameness and homogeneity which leads me to ask yet another question: why am I bothering researching other churches when they are far more similar than they are unique? It's like choosing between Burger King and McDonald's. Should I really bother, or should I avoid both?

I am wondering if I am better off hiking, meditating, praying, listening to worship music and reading and studying the Bible on my own instead of attending any church. 

At least that way I will not continue to be disappointed by dumb, goofy pastors and staff who are pushing their own left wing agenda instead of following the teachings of the Bible. 

I am also continually shocked at how meek, submissive and uninquisitive 90 to 99% of all members of a congregation are. They will not question ANYTHING.

They will believe ANYTHING. They will do ANYTHING they are asked, as long as they believe it is coming from the "governing authorities" or better yet, "church leadership."

At this point, given the lack of inquisitiveness, the lack of courage, and the shocking willingness of church members to live in fear and guilt in perpetuity without pursuing the truth for themselves, I am actually starting to become embarrassed by the thought of being associated with these "christians."

As far as offering actionable insights, I'd say my current church rates as poor. I say this because they clearly do not understand the Bible. 

As far as a future church, the prospects once again are "poor" since most every modern church is designed according to the same cookie cutter pattern as any other. It is basically a pagan temple built upon tithing extracted either by enticing the congregation with the promise of wealth and/or with the fear of sending them to "hell" if they don't. 

I am not sure what church has to offer me or what I can contribute since I am 99% certain that most any church will not want to hear about how their church is un-biblical. 

tl, dr: Churches are not based upon the teachings of the Bible and no one in a church will want to even entertain this idea. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by TJGospels

[walla299]

10 minutes ago, TJGospels said:

At this point? It's not clear to me. After reading Pagan Christianity, what's clear is almost all of the practices of the modern church are rooted more in paganism and secularism than the Bible. 

In so many cases the "pastors" set such a low standard they are not anywhere near worthy of being regarded as role models or as sources of wisdom, about the Bible which is supposedly their area of expertise, and certainly not in other important matters where it is safe to dismiss their views completely. 

First of all I wouldn't put too much stock in all these books that criticize the church. I'm talking about the Body of Christ here, not a local body of believers that has a building. Those kind of critical books have always been around and I would imagine more of them will be published in the future. The enemy loves sowing division, and this can be a part of that. I'm not saying it is, just that it can be used that way.

Quote

I am wondering if I am better off hiking, meditating, praying, listening to worship music and reading and studying the Bible on my own instead of attending any church. 

At least that way I will not continue to be disappointed by dumb, goofy pastors and staff who are pushing their own left wing agenda instead of following the teachings of the Bible. 

Not all churches are the same and you will find all of them do things a bit differently. Prayer and asking the Lord to direct you to the church where He wants you is part of finding one where you can serve Him and others. Fellowship is a 2 way street. Believers need one another. We see this in the Gospels, Acts, and the epistles of the New Testament. Life is not very fulfilling when lived in isolation. I know. I've been there too and it was not by choice.

I don't know about the kind of pastors, etc. you're referring to, but if this is what you're finding then you need to look for a different kind of church. Churches where God is changing hearts don't usually go for the latest in politics. 

God's kingdom works opposite of the world's way of doing things. Don't bother looking at the churches with the big fancy "campus" full of buildings. Look for the smaller ones in store fronts and other out of the way places. Do some volunteer time at a local homeless shelter or food bank and you can get the blessing of being a blessing to others. I guarantee you'll find some other believers and they will be able to tell you about other churches that will be worth checking out. You'll probably wind up with some new friends as well.

 

[ayin jade]

1 hour ago, TJGospels said:

At this point? It's not clear to me. After reading Pagan Christianity, what's clear is almost all of the practices of the modern church are rooted more in paganism and secularism than the Bible. 

In so many cases the "pastors" set such a low standard they are not anywhere near worthy of being regarded as role models or as sources of wisdom, about the Bible which is supposedly their area of expertise, and certainly not in other important matters where it is safe to dismiss their views completely. 

In researching other churches, there is a staggering sameness and homogeneity which leads me to ask yet another question: why am I bothering researching other churches when they are far more similar than they are unique? It's like choosing between Burger King and McDonald's. Should I really bother, or should I avoid both?

I am wondering if I am better off hiking, meditating, praying, listening to worship music and reading and studying the Bible on my own instead of attending any church. 

At least that way I will not continue to be disappointed by dumb, goofy pastors and staff who are pushing their own left wing agenda instead of following the teachings of the Bible. 

I am also continually shocked at how meek, submissive and uninquisitive 90 to 99% of all members of a congregation are. They will not question ANYTHING.

They will believe ANYTHING. They will do ANYTHING they are asked, as long as they believe it is coming from the "governing authorities" or better yet, "church leadership."

At this point, given the lack of inquisitiveness, the lack of courage, and the shocking willingness of church members to live in fear and guilt in perpetuity without pursuing the truth for themselves, I am actually starting to become embarrassed by the thought of being associated with these "christians."

As far as offering actionable insights, I'd say my current church rates as poor. I say this because they clearly do not understand the Bible. 

As far as a future church, the prospects once again are "poor" since most every modern church is designed according to the same cookie cutter pattern as any other. It is basically a pagan temple built upon tithing extracted either by enticing the congregation with the promise of wealth and/or with the fear of sending them to "hell" if they don't. 

I am not sure what church has to offer me or what I can contribute since I am 99% certain that most any church will not want to hear about how their church is un-biblical. 

Now we get to the root of your disatisfaction with the churches you have checked out. What denominations have you looked at? You dont have to mention specific churches, just the denomination or list it as an independent. Many of the mainstream denominations are fairly wrong in their beliefs. One type you mentioned is the name it claim it crowd. Thats the promise of wealth type. They are pretty lacking too. 

Studying the bible is good. Questioning is good too. Its fine to question a pastor too. In fact, get a list of questions ready to ask any pastor in any church you fine to attend, to make sure they are solid. 

As far as the book, pagan Christianity, I have not read it, but often these types of books only discourage people. Question what they have written. Compare everything, and I mean everything in that book and in churches, to scripture. The bible tells us in Acts, that its a good thing. 

Acts 17

10 And the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. They, when they arrived, went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so . 

 What matters in a church is how grounded in the bible they are. Church should be a place you worship the Lord in, and that can equip you in your walk with the Lord.

Ephesians 4

11 And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

Dont give up looking for a church. I personally have found greater joy in a Messianic congregation than in other churches. We should not go it alone. The world is full of pitfalls for Christians. 

Hebrews 10

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised),
24 and let us consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another , and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[ayin jade]

I am curious. What in that book, pagan Christianity do you find distasteful in churches?

[Still Alive]

18 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

People do suffer for their sin.

Yep. I'm of the mind that the "hell experience", that many ECT advocates are thinking about when they use the word is what people are experiencing IN THIS CURRENT WORLD AND LIFE. And it is often due to their bad decisions and perceptions of events. 

My wife lost her first husband 35 years ago, leaving her with no life insurance, a mortgage, and three children under the age of 8. But she did not suffer "hell on earth". Her faith was STRENGTHENED. And she got through her worldly "boot camp" days to become a spiritual stalwart. But without the Lord, it would have been very different.

[Still Alive]

18 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

 Singular Plural & 1st, 2nd & 3rd Person are all pretty advanced teaching. God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel.  When I can I like to look at a word in the Hebrew because the meaning is a lot more plain and clear. 

I'm in my recent reading I'm about halfway through my fourth book on the OT. In fact, one was called "Old Testament Theology for Christians". I'm currently halfway through "The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest". The first one was "Unseen Realm". That one was true to its word: My bible is a completely different book than it used to be. And not to put too fine a point on it, it's not that these books are, out of whole cloth, changing the way I think about the bible. Rather, they are answering and re-enforcing questions I was already having. And suddenly so much of it makes far more sense than it did when I was eternally stuck in "the bible 101", which IS where most churches keep everyone - even their leadership.

[JohnR7]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:16 AM, Still Alive said:

I was eternally stuck in "the bible 101", which IS where most churches keep everyone - even their leadership.

I am stuck on the first letter of the first word in the Bible. The B in beginning. This has to do with tent, tabernacle or dwelling. God's desire to dwell with His creation. When you get to the letter D that stands for door. Jesus is the door and He decides who enters into the tent. Or who does not enter in. 

[Willa]

  It is heartbreaking to watch churches break up in this way.  Many new believers are lost for eternity.

 I have attended many churches of greatly differing beliefs.  Each time I would go to the pastor and tell him what I can't agree with.  Each time they would say, "that's OK, you are still a Christian!"  So I left a liberal church to join a conservative Lutheran Church, then an Assembly of God, then a Baptist church, and finally a Calvary Chapel where they NEVER ask for money.   I stayed in each 15 to 20 years.   And each one supplied something I needed in my life both personally and doctrinally!  

 God's school of hard knocks is to put us among that hardest sinners for us to forgive and love, and to keep doing it until we fall on our faces because we know we are totally lost and without hope.  We can't love filthy sinners like He does!  Then He refills us with His Spirit and slowly teaches us to listen to His voice and to walk in the Spirit.

 It was learning to determine or to be willing to forgive the unforgivable sins of others, the way that Jesus hung on that cross and did.  To do this God had to remove my own self righteousness, which was far worse than their adulteries, etc.  Self-righteousness removed me from God's grace.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.  Gal 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Luk 18:11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.  Luk 18:12  I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Luk 18:13  And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

Luk 18:14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

God wants us to compare ourselves with the righteousness of Christ Who only did and said the things God gave him to say and do.  Then He wants us to cry out to Him for help because no man can do this.   He wants us to realize that only CHRIST IN US can live the Christian life.  

Mat 6:14  For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,  Mat 6:15  but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

1Jn 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.  1Jn 4:8  Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1Jn 4:20  If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; 

I had always pointed these verses to a hate filled person I knew; that day God pointed them at me.

[TJGospels]

Thank you so much for your kind and insightful words, Willa!

The pseudo-"church" in question (TCIQ) is in my rear view mirror now. It is not a church and the staff are not even close to being true christians. The lower-ranking staff are all in cahoots to foment a politically correct revolution once the time is ripe. The "lead" pastor is struggling in just about every way imaginable. It was becoming increasingly cringe worthy. There is ONE pastor on staff whom I respect, but he is isolated surrounded by some serious knuckleheads.

It is astonishing how quickly these phony churches and christians show their true colors once they are faced with even the slightest criticism. It's almost laughable how little effort they put into their facade. I've said this before and I'll say it again: the local churches are almost all incompetent and/or corrupt. 

TCIQ is facing long odds. Everything seems more or less serene or placid on the "surface" from a distance. However, upon even slightly closer inspection, the stress is written all over their faces.

They are scrambling as their weeknight service attendance has plummeted. They appear to be dissatisfied with their numbers for sunday services as well as they have rescheduled service times, to try to attract a larger congregation.

The local churches are in a very tough spot. The percentage of the population identifying as christian is dropping precipitously, and our local extremely liberal (yet not very bright) local population has consistently shown little interest in attending or supporting local churches. How can they increase attendance and revenue in this setting? They are scrambling for short-term quick fix solutions like free donut night or shuffling around service times. 

Despite any and all efforts, there is not much they can do to stem the tide. One possibility is to do their best to sustain membership and attendance numbers by acting with integrity and transparency but they demonstrated long ago they are either not interested or feel it's not possible (at least not without significant inconveniences which they will do anything to avoid). 
 

[Still Alive]

14 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

I am stuck on the first letter of the first word in the Bible. The B in beginning. This has to do with tent, tabernacle or dwelling. God's desire to dwell with His creation. When you get to the letter D that stands for door. Jesus is the door and He decides who enters into the tent. Or who does not enter in. 

I did a "haha" response, but I believe you are absolutely correct. I don't bring this up much, but the context I now give the entire bible is shared below. It is not what I necessarily believe. Rather, it is completely possible, and I've found no scripture that controdicts it. Just as we know far more about His creation and much of what we now hold dear regarding our savior would sound crazy to those that lived 3,000 years ago, we must understand that we all apply a flawed context to how we translate, transliterate, and interpret the old, as well as new, testaments.

1. The OT is written TO a subset of human beings on the planet at the time it was written. Specifically, Israel. It was also written "for" us that come later.

2. Israel was His chosen people and were His. And he is above all things in the physical world and above all things in the spiritual world. He's the "head elohim". But other peoples had other elohim responsible for them. Hence Psalm 82.

3. Eden and the ultimate end on Earth described in our bibles - through the end of Revelation - is where God shares direct relationship with those of us on this planet.  

4. This includes Jesus sacrifice, which expanded the "covenant" to include all of mankind on the planet. But only mankind on this planet, since that is who he lives among, speaks to, and teaches of God and His perfect love. 

5. There are probably an infinite number of planets, all of which have their own equivalent of "Eden", where the God of all creation communes with the inhabitants of each planet. And we don't know anything about them, nor do we need to. That's outside the scope of what the bible is communicating. 

I'll just add this: The bible has a starting point and an ending point regarding the passage of time. But it's like a fictional story about a person or family in a struggle. That is, in the lives of those people, much precedes the beginning, and much of life follows the end. The bible only covers a few thousand years. Millions may have gone by before it, and billions may go by after. But it is the story of the placement of man on Earth, the interactions and relationships with its human inhabitants with God, and the final outcome of His plan, which is when everything REALLY begins, yet the bible is silent on it.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Still Alive