Paul

[Salt]

Various ministries or churches have taugh different things on 'Paul's thorn in the flesh', but what does the Bible really say? Here is what I found...

Paul

[Ovedya]

Actually, it is likely that Paul's thorn in the flesh was simply trouble with his eyes.

Galatians 4:13-15 and 6:11 seem to indicate that Paul was having trouble specifically with his eyes. Check Easton's Bible Dictionary: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/Ea...gi?number=T3643

[Dad Ernie]

Actually, it is likely that Paul's thorn in the flesh was simply trouble with his eyes.

Greetings Ovedya,

I have read a number of expositors in regards to this "thorn in the flesh" and there is almost no agreement as to what that "thorn" was. Isn't it interesting that Paul does not expound upon it, yet it is included in the scriptures "for our edification". Well, in 1975, God clearly spoke to me and told me "My grace is sufficient for thee." Over the years, I have come to understand that verse because I too was given a "thorn in the flesh", and it has kept me a lot more humble than I was at the time I received God's Word.

The problem with anyone in interpreting the meaning of some scriptures is that we try to read into them something that is not there. Someone might say, God humbled me in such and such a manner, but another would come along and say that if it didn't conform to those "thorn" scriptures, then it wasn't valid, because God only humbles us by affecting our eyes. Well, I have learned that God's grace is sufficient for much more than we give Him credit for. Paul's thorn could have been a physical problem, speech, eyes, ears, or it could have been thoughts, such as looking upon women in a wanton manner, or it could be spiritual, such as depression for Paul was told of how much he would have to suffer for Christ's name and I'm sure there were times of great faith as well as great depression - it goes with the territory.

No, my problem was not with my eyes, but it was a frowned upon habit and it kept me humble everytime I judged another person, I felt that inner voice saying - Are you without sin? I shamefully have hung my head and prayed that each of us receive God's mercy and His grace.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

From previous post's of mine:

For one, the word kolaphizo can only be taken literally. It means to be struck in the face, specifically under or on the eye. It is the same word to describe boxing matches in Greece when one fighter would hit another in the face. So Paul is saying that a messenger of Satan was sent to cause a disease in the eye (this is also another application of the word). But, where do you get the idea that he finally got rid of it? Because verse 8 specifically says, "For this I sought the Lord three times to remove it from me" and then goes on in verse 9 to say that it wasn't removed. He even mentioned it to the Galatians saying that he thanked them for their kindness though his sight was not good, that they were so kind if they could have given their own eyes for him to be healed they would have.

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these suprassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness, sot hat Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in my weakness, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ~ 2 Cor. 12:7-10

These verses show us:

#1 Pauls 'thorn' caused him pain

#2 he pleaded for God to heal him

#3 God gave him grace instead of healing

#4 no sign that God was punishing Paul

#5 Paul didn't see it as punishment either

The word Paul uses for 'weakness' is the greek word 'astheneia'...which means malady, frailty, disease, sickness or weakness in the mind or body. There's no getting around it, Paul had something that he wanted physically healed, and God chose not to heal it physically.

(That's actually from Tess, who asked me what the Greek was for the passage)

skolops te sarki is Greek for "thorn in the flesh". Now sarx is only used to either refer to literal human flesh or the fallen human nature.

kolaphizo means to strike someone. The Greeks often used this word to refer to boxers or how they would strike people at the eye or below the eye for a knockout.

Now, putting these two together we can either go with your interperation meaning Satan was attacking the already fallen nature of Paul...which woul dmake no sense....or he was attacking Paul's flesh. Most people believe that the thorn in the flesh was actually an eye disease sent by Satan that God allowed Paul to endure. God did not heal him of this disease. Even when preaching to the Galatians, he still held this physical illness, but noted that the Galatians were so kind that if they could have plucked out their eyes for him they would have (Galatians 4:12-15).

So in 2 Corinthians we see a possible physical illness and in Galatians 4 we see a definate physical illness with the eyes...guess Paul didn't have enough faith.

So, that's my reply.

Let me guess, you're WOF? I only ask because, to date, it's the "God heals all the faithful" are the only people that have taught the thorn wasn't physical.

[nebula]

The problem with anyone in interpreting the meaning of some scriptures is that we try to read into them something that is not there. Someone might say, God humbled me in such and such a manner, but another would come along and say that if it didn't conform to those "thorn" scriptures, then it wasn't valid, because God only humbles us by affecting our eyes. Well, I have learned that God's grace is sufficient for much more than we give Him credit for. Paul's thorn could have been a physical problem, speech, eyes, ears, or it could have been thoughts, such as looking upon women in a wanton manner, or it could be spiritual, such as depression for Paul was told of how much he would have to suffer for Christ's name and I'm sure there were times of great faith as well as great depression - it goes with the territory.

No, my problem was not with my eyes, but it was a frowned upon habit and it kept me humble everytime I judged another person, I felt that inner voice saying - Are you without sin? I shamefully have hung my head and prayed that each of us receive God's mercy and His grace.

I agree with you here on this.

The i.d. of the "thorn" wasn't focused on because if so, this is what we would focus on. Then we wouldn't apply the lesson to our lives because we would think "My grace is sufficient" would only apply to certain problems.

Keeping the thorn more annonymous makes it more applicable to our lives and situations - whether it be physical or a bad habit or a sin we struggle to overcome or spiritual struggles or whatever. "My grace is suficient for you" in all things!

Paul

[apothanein kerdos]

The i.d. of the "thorn" wasn't focused on because if so, this is what we would focus on. Then we wouldn't apply the lesson to our lives because we would think "My grace is sufficient" would only apply to certain problems.

Keeping the thorn more annonymous makes it more applicable to our lives and situations - whether it be physical or a bad habit or a sin we struggle to overcome or spiritual struggles or whatever. "My grace is suficient for you" in all things!

But the thorn isn't annoymous.

If you turn to the Greek, it like screams at you that it's literal. It's one of the most clear cut cases in the New Testament...and also the evidence that English can sometimes leave much to be desired...this is one of those verse with inspired residue left over after the translation.

It still applies to us all, to show that in our weakness God is made strong. That is the theme, as explained by Paul. Even in our frailties (which to many under the Hellenistic paradigm showed a weakness that prohibited them from serving God) Christ supplies the grace to perform His work. In essence, Paul is saying not even physical handicaps can keep us from serving God...there is no excuse.

[Dad Ernie]

If you turn to the Greek, it like screams at you that it's literal. It's one of the most clear cut cases in the New Testament...and also the evidence that English can sometimes leave much to be desired...this is one of those verse with inspired residue left over after the translation.

It still applies to us all, to show that in our weakness God is made strong. That is the theme, as explained by Paul. Even in our frailties (which to many under the Hellenistic paradigm showed a weakness that prohibited them from serving God) Christ supplies the grace to perform His work. In essence, Paul is saying not even physical handicaps can keep us from serving God...there is no excuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Super Jew,

Well, at least I am glad you recognize that "grace" has broader application than that depicted in the text, or at least the assumption you are making. I looked at the Greek and nothing "screamed" at me, but if you will also observe:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

769 astheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

from 772; TDNT - 1:490,83; n f

AV - infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1, 24

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity

1a) of the body

1a1) its native weakness and frailty

1a2) feebleness of health or sickness

1b) of the soul

1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite

1b1a) to understand a thing

1b1b) to do things great and glorious

1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires

1b1d) to bear trials and troubles

I referred to my own infirmity which you can see is relevant in the above Greek definition. Now for added emphasis I will quote:

Romans 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Here is the Greek for vanity:

3153 mataiotes {mat-ah-yot'-ace}

from 3152; TDNT - 4:523,571; n f

AV - vanity 3; 3

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

2) perverseness, depravity

3) frailty, want of vigour

Even from the very beginning, Adam before the fall was frail, especially when compared to the angels. Jesus was made in the likeness of FRAIL man - a little lower than the angels, BUT without sin, as Adam. Jesus was made in the likeness of Adam BEFORE Adam's fall.

One might say that it was a foregone conclusion that Adam would fall because of this frailty of the FLESH. The propensity of humankind TO SIN is an infirmity with which we each live every day of our lives. It is a constant battle for us between the spirit and the flesh. And this is why I believe that "thorn" of Paul's is never identified by Him.

Now, you say eyesight, but from what you know of dimness of eyesight or even blindness, where in the scriptures, or from your own experience is it caused by a MESSENGER OF SATAN? If you were having eye problems would you blame Satan for it? Or would you consider it a normal part of being human? Frail, IOW.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

This is why I am so ardently opposed to Greek dictionaries...they don't offer a broad picture of what is meant and lay people who don't know Greek end up getting a false view of the scripture.

I looked at the Greek and nothing "screamed" at me,

Because you don't know Greek How the endings work, what ousts certain parts of a definition and what doesn't. How the same word can be used in two different sentences and mean two completely different things simply because of the ending attached to it.

769 astheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

from 772; TDNT - 1:490,83; n f

AV - infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1, 24

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity

1a) of the body

1a1) its native weakness and frailty

1a2) feebleness of health or sickness

1b) of the soul

1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite

1b1a) to understand a thing

1b1b) to do things great and glorious

1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires

1b1d) to bear trials and troubles

I referred to my own infirmity which you can see is relevant in the above Greek definition

So what if it's relavent to the definition? How does it fit in the context? The spiritual application simply doesn't fit into the context of the passage. If I say, "I love ice cream", does that mean you can look up "love" in a dictionary, come to the conclusion that I want to marry ice cream because I have a deep feeling for it, and be justified in doing so? Then why is it when we look up some Greek word in a dictionary and completely ignore the context (in Greek) we can justify our own beliefs?

Again, look to verse seven and my Greek interpretation for the context. The word and context simply dissallow for any use in a "spiritual" application of what Paul is talking about. It simply cannot be disputed that Paul is refering to a physical problem. For one, name one time in scripture that astheneia is used to refer to the spiritual. The only time it is refered to as a spiritual weakness, that I have found, is when followed with astheneian tes sarkos, more properly, "The weakness of your fallen nature". In essence, the only time we really see it translated to refer to a spiritual infirmity is when the context dictates it should be this way. 2 Corinthians 12 does not dictate that this is a spiritual infirmity.

Even from the very beginning, Adam before the fall was frail, especially when compared to the angels. Jesus was made in the likeness of FRAIL man - a little lower than the angels, BUT without sin, as Adam. Jesus was made in the likeness of Adam BEFORE Adam's fall.

One might say that it was a foregone conclusion that Adam would fall because of this frailty of the FLESH. The propensity of humankind TO SIN is an infirmity with which we each live every day of our lives. It is a constant battle for us between the spirit and the flesh. And this is why I believe that "thorn" of Paul's is never identified by Him.

This is an absolute false doctrine. To infer that man was predisposed to sin is to say that God made an imperfect creation, in essence, creation wasn't good and God lied.

[Dad Ernie]

This is an absolute false doctrine. To infer that man was predisposed to sin is to say that God made an imperfect creation, in essence, creation wasn't good and God lied.

Greetings Super Jew,

When God "looked upon all that His hands had created" and saw that "it was GOOD", does not imply "perfectness", as you imply above. It means: "Good for the purposes for which God created it." Isn't it interesting that God did not make man and say that "he" was "good", but looked over ALL HIS CREATION of the previous 6 days and said that it was "good", AGAIN, NOT PERFECT.

I hear this all the time from various preachers, and all I can do is shake my head.

So I might ask you, was Jesus created in the Likeness of Adam BEFORE or AFTER the fall? Don't you find it interesting that as Adam was "tested" and found wanting, Jesus was "tested in the desert", and won the victory! Doesn't that tell you something?

Though, I enjoy many of your posts, you certainly appear to me to be arrogant and not to allow for other concepts outside your narrow definition of what is and what ain't.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[tuco22]

I heard a sermon once a long time ago on why Adam deliberately sinned after Eve had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was because he loved her and didn't want to be without her. She was the first one to eat of the tree, and when she did so she died spiritually, but Adam was still alive spiritually. I believe Adam ate because he didn't want to be without her, and if he didn't eat, he would have been. Eve said the serpent beguiled her. I believe this is an excuse, but I also believe there is some truth to it. Up until that time, Adam and Eve had had no experience with lies and deceit. They believed everything they were told. They had had no experience with death, since death did not exist before the fall. Satan used that innocence against them to get them to disobey. Yes, they knew what they were doing was wrong, but I don't believe they fully understood the consequences until afterwards. Like us. I don't believe they were "predisposed" to sin. God doesn't create imperfection.