Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

And how do you find God?

https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/29-13.htm

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with your whole heart. 

 

This happened to me Aug 31,1998.

And I testify this verse is very true. 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

But this Ezekiel 37 is not the same type of resurrection.  They are not brought up out of their graves to spirit but to flesh.  Look it could happen straight after the resurrection, I don't know.  As soon as that resurrection happens, it's a new dawn...a new era.

 Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

  Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

 

Hello Sister- It was stated that the time in which the resurrection of Israel into mortal bodies was not known, but that it would be after the 7th Trumpet sounds as shown below:

 

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The above quote states 'there is something wonderful coming afterwards during the millennium...' and that this will be the 2nd resurrection.

Let me re-phrase that.  After the 1st resurrection of the saints, at the 7th trump, we start entering into the millennium.  This is when Ezekiel 37 happens. When exactly, I don't know what day.

 

Isaiah 66:8 and Isaiah 66:9 were given as references.

Here is Is. 66:8

 

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Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Here is Is. 66:9

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Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Here is what was said before Is. 66:7

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Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

So lets kind of take from 66:7 and walk through to verse 8. The first part we need to look at where it says that before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 

What is this talking about and who is this man child? The man child is Jesus and the woman that brought him forth was Israel. Here it talks about the woman bringing forth the man child in Rev. 12:4-5:

 

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"....and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

The dragon was working through Herod to destroy all the male children 2 years old and younger in an attempt to kill Jesus:

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Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

But what is meant by before she travailed she brought forth; and before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child? It is showing the child Jesus was brought forth before the time of great tribulation where Israel  WILL be in travail to bring forth. During the great tribulation is when God will bring all nations against them and pour out his wrath on them to bring them forth as gold.  This is called the time of Jacob's trouble, as it states in Jer. 30:7:

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Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Here is scripture where he brings all nations against them:

Zech. 14:2

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For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It does say God will then go forth and fight against these nations and will deliver Israel, but this purifying goes on before the time of deliverance as shown below: This is the time of Jacob's trouble:

Ez. 22:19-

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Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.

Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

 

So God gathers all nations against Jerusalem, but then when they are about to get crushed he comes and rescues them as stated here:

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Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Out of this travail comes forth the 144000 who are converted and are then grafted back into the vine.

So let's look at the next verse in 66:8

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Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

So the first part about 'who hath heard of such a thing, and who has seen such things, is referring back to Israel bringing forth Jesus before she travailed. But then the next part is referring to two things:

1) A nation being brought forth in a day, or a nation being born at once..

2) Zion bringing forth her children

So at the time of deliverance God will once again make Jerusalem one nation under God as it states later in Ez. 37:22

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And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

 

So the nation now emerges and we also have the purified 144000 who are brought forth from the time of their trouble and travail. But remember, the bringing forth of the Israel's children and the emerging of the nation all came about through trouble and travail, not a resurrection of anyone to mortal bodies. 

So let's look at the last verse that was referenced:

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Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

God is saying he is the one who brings Israel the point of birth. Of course this birth is not a resurrection, but a bringing forth of Israel's children through travail and trouble. God brings the nations against her to bring her to this point of birth. God is saying 'Shall I do all this and then not have it happen? Shall I bring them to this point and then shut the womb? Of course not.

God will fulfill what he said he would do with Israel...the nations will come against them, and they will be delivered...but keep in mind, this is not a resurrection event, but a deliverance event. There will be a resurrection for the Old Testament saints, but these events will happen to those who are alive at the Second Coming. 

 

Blessings to you and good to talk with you- Gary 

[Sister]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So lets kind of take from 66:7 and walk through to verse 8. The first part we need to look at where it says that before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 

What is this talking about and who is this man child? The man child is Jesus and the woman that brought him forth was Israel. Here it talks about the woman bringing forth the man child in Rev. 12:4-5:

 

Yes the man child is Jesus as spoken in Rev 12:

 

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What is this talking about and who is this man child? The man child is Jesus and the woman that brought him forth was Israel.

The woman who brought him forth was not Israel, but Zion.  Zion is not Israel.  Zion is God's woman - his doctrine, his city  - The kingdom of God on earth, Holy Jerusalem, the invisible city where there is truth, peace, love and salvation.

Jesus was 'born again' out of God's woman Zion.  When he was resurrected.  Born the second time. We shall be born of her also in the 1st resurrection of the saints.

Israel were once of Zion when they were following the commandments of God, but when they rejected Jesus, they said let the curse be on us and on our children's children.  So they don't go into that 1st resurrection, which is why God has a plan b for them - during the millennium.

 

[Sister]

 

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Out of this travail comes forth the 144000 who are converted and are then grafted back into the vine.

Disagreed there.  The 144,000 have come to the end of their journey, not the beginning.  They follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth.  The same lamb that was offered up for a sacrifice- Jesus.  Israel did not follow Jesus.  They rejected him.

The 144,000 are the 'firstfruits' of the resurrection of the saints.  They are only small in number and are 'sealed' because they are worthy of the Lamb.  These are the vessels of gold and silver who worship in spirit and in truth.  They will not be touched by the plagues.  The angels with the plagues will pass over them because they have been loyal to Christ.  They are given the highest honour amongst all servants of Christ besides the apostles.

 

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

[Sister]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:46 AM, transmogrified said:

So the first part about 'who hath heard of such a thing, and who has seen such things, is referring back to Israel bringing forth Jesus before she travailed. But then the next part is referring to two things:

1) A nation being brought forth in a day, or a nation being born at once..

2) Zion bringing forth her children

So at the time of deliverance God will once again make Jerusalem one nation under God as it states later in Ez. 37:22

Hi Gary

I see the first part differently.  It's not speaking of the past, but of the future.  It's a prophecy. The focus here is on Zion.

Please let me explain to you who Zion is;

Zion is God's woman.  She is spoken of in so many places in the OT.  She is poetically shown as God's wife.  Depicted as a loyal woman, devoted to her husband.  Her job is to raise the children for her husband and teach them to be holy.  In reality she is God's doctrine, his teachings, his truth, his holy City.  So just as Eve came out of Adam, God's woman comes out of him.  God's doctrine comes out of him, and his doctrine glorifies him because it is truth.

Don't forget, this is all poetic.  We find it hard to understand the spiritual, so he uses a physical example to demonstrate how important this woman is to him.

Zion is from above.  She is heavenly.  Her teachings come from heaven, and all on the earth who hear God dwell in her. Dwell in his doctrine, not some other doctrine.

Israel were called to dwell in Zion also, the city of truth, and receive God's protection whilst they were under his woman, but after time, they exchanged God's woman for another mother who was not God's wife because they strayed from his teachings.  So they went their own way.

Jesus came out of Zion also.  He was born out of God's doctrine, his woman.

 John 7:16   Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jesus kept the righteousness of his Father's doctrine.  He stayed true to his mother.  The whole light of the Father and of his woman (his doctrine) is shinning on Jesus.  We know Jesus is of the Father because of the doctrine he preaches.  The sheep know his voice because of what he speaks, that unique doctrine, like no other.

Jesus came to give us the light of that kingdom...the kingdom of Zion so that we can become her children also.  At the moment, whilst we are learning the true doctrine of God, we are figuratively in Zion's womb.  After the great tribulation,... her labour pains, she will give birth to all her children at once in the resurrection.

Jesus was the first 'born' of this woman when he came back into the world the second time. His resurrection.  All who will be born of Zion are born out of that doctrine that converted them,...the doctrine of truth, and the doctrine that gives life.  They shall be born spirit this time because each and every one of them have had their hearts converted by being washed in the blood of the Lamb and for receiving that doctrine.

So when Zion gives birth, it's specifically speaking of the resurrection.  Not the remnants of Israel, not the dead being brought back to life, but the 1st resurrection of the saints.  That unique event that involves not only him, but his followers also.

So does this make sense now?

Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

These of the resurrection is that nation ISRAEL.  The true Israel of God.  A new Israel.  Not the old one.  Made up of the ones who followed God's doctrine....all the way, and that doctrine had to include Christ. 

In the resurrection, this nation will be born at once. In one day, all her children shall come forth.  This is not speaking about the remnants of Israel.  Nothing to do with it, but concerning those of the resurrection.

 

Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

I think the meaning of the above is this;

God is speaking to Zion -  Shall I bring you all this way, into labour, then stop your children from coming out?  Am I putting you through all this for nothing?  In other words, don't give up hope, your children are coming.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sister
added 'but his followers also'

[Heleadethme]

27 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Gary

I see the first part differently.  It's not speaking of the past, but of the future.  It's a prophecy. The focus here is on Zion.

Please let me explain to you who Zion is;

Zion is God's woman.  She is spoken of in so many places in the OT.  She is poetically shown as God's wife.  Depicted as a loyal woman, devoted to her husband.  Her job is to raise the children for her husband and teach them to be holy.  In reality she is God's doctrine, his teachings, his truth, his holy City.  So just as Eve came out of Adam, God's woman comes out of him.  God's doctrine comes out of him, and his doctrine glorifies him because it is truth.

Don't forget, this is all poetic.  We find it hard to understand the spiritual, so he uses a physical example to demonstrate how important this woman is to him.

Zion is from above.  She is heavenly.  Her teachings come from heaven, and all on the earth who hear God dwell in her. Dwell in his doctrine, not some other doctrine.

Israel were called to dwell in Zion also, the city of truth, and receive God's protection whilst they were under his woman, but after time, they exchanged God's woman for another mother who was not God's wife because they strayed from his teachings.  So they went their own way.

Jesus came out of Zion also.  He was born out of God's doctrine, his woman.

 John 7:16   Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jesus kept the righteousness of his Father's doctrine.  He stayed true to his mother.  The whole light of the Father and of his woman (his doctrine) is shinning on Jesus.  We know Jesus is of the Father because of the doctrine he preaches.  The sheep know his voice because of what he speaks, that unique doctrine, like no other.

Jesus came to give us the light of that kingdom...the kingdom of Zion so that we can become her children also.  At the moment, whilst we are learning the true doctrine of God, we are figuratively in Zion's womb.  After the great tribulation,... her labour pains, she will give birth to all her children at once in the resurrection.

Jesus was the first 'born' of this woman when he came back into the world the second time. His resurrection.  All who will be born of Zion are born out of that doctrine that converted them,...the doctrine of truth, and the doctrine that gives life.  They shall be born spirit this time because each and every one of them have had their hearts converted by being washed in the blood of the Lamb and for receiving that doctrine.

So when Zion gives birth, it's specifically speaking of the resurrection.  Not the remnants of Israel, not the dead being brought back to life, but the 1st resurrection of the saints.  That unique event that involves only him.

So does this make sense now?

Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

These of the resurrection is that nation ISRAEL.  The true Israel of God.  A new Israel.  Not the old one.  Made up of the ones who followed God's doctrine....all the way, and that doctrine had to include Christ. 

In the resurrection, this nation will be born at once. In one day, all her children shall come forth.  This is not speaking about the remnants of Israel.  Nothing to do with it, but concerning those of the resurrection.

 

Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

I think the meaning of the above is this;

God is speaking to Zion -  Shall I bring you all this way, into labour, then stop your children from coming out?  Am I putting you through all this for nothing?  In other words, don't give up hope, your children are coming.

 

 

Nicely said IMO, Sister.  All creation is groaning and waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. 

But I don't think we can dismiss how these OT prophecies were fulfilled already on one level concerning earthly Jerusalem/Israel...earthly Zion.  She gave birth before her labour pains came upon her (Is. 66:7)  in 70 AD, giving birth to the Son and His church body before being judged....and the early believers following Jesus' prophetic instruction about fleeing Jerusalem, came out of her and were spared the destruction/judgment to go all over the world bringing the gospel. 

And now have been wondering whether we're also looking ahead to the same  pattern of prophecy being fulfilled a second time involving the church this time, when the true faithful believers are spared the judgment of the compromised harlot church when the beast (earthly kingdom) turns on her.  Principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile"....?  And since Israel serves as an ensample and warning to the church.  If this is true, it's important to understand and acknowledge the first fulfillment regarding Israel if it is to effectively serve as a warning to the church.....kind of foundational for how it will be fulfilled concerning the church.  Hosea 2 = Revelation 17 .... Adulterous wife in bed with the world and its kingdoms, until the world turns against her.

(Adulterous wife is what Jesus spoke against:  serving two masters....and it was Israel's sin of "halting between two opinions" when Elijah was calling Israel to repent of trying to serve both God and Baal at the same time.  That is the lukewarm state and why the Lord would rather we even be completely 'cold' rather than being spiritually adulterous.  Friendship with the world is enmity with God.  This is so deceptive a snare and widespread in the western church now.  We all need to examine ourselves truly, and I certainly include myself.)

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

Israel were once of Zion when they were following the commandments of God, but when they rejected Jesus, they said let the curse be on us and on our children's children. 

Yes their house was left to them desolate, but there was a believing remnant of Israel who went on and did follow God...as Paul said 'SOME' of the branches were broken off...' so there were branches that did remain in the vine, which was Jesus.

When I say Jesus came out of Israel, or out of Zion, he came forth from the seed of Abraham according to the flesh...his lineage...as Paul said:

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Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

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Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

We could go into what was meant by Jesus being of the seed of David, but what Jesus said when he identified who he was encapsulates what we are dealing with:

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I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

So he was before David and he was also the offspring of David making him the 'God / Man'

But Zion is the true church of God, consisting of both believing Jew and Gentile...the unbelieving Jews were removed from Zion, but Zion remained the 'Heavenly Jerusalem,' as Paul said in Galatians

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But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The city is depicted coming down from heaven as bride adorned for her husband...so we see the bride, the woman, the Mt. Zion, the people of God, coming down from heaven...

She consists of both Old and New Testament believers, as it states it had twelve gates which had the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and it also had twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles of the lamb.

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And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

What this means is there no city coming down from heaven having only new testament saints...the city is made up of both new and old testament saints.

So when Zechariah said 'The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.' he was not saying some of the saints would come with him but there would be other saints that would not be coming with him.

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And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

When Paul said 'at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints,' he did not mean he would be coming with part of his saints, but there were other saints that would not be coming with him.'

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To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The word 'saints' means 'holy' or 'set apart'. Paul said if the root is holy, so are the branches..

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For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

So it would be unscriptural to say the natural branches in the Old Testament who remained faithful to God were not saints, or, in other words, were not holy, which would also mean if they were holy they would not then need to be given another chance to learn of God's ways in order that they can be made holy...No. There were already holy because they were abiding in the vine, in the same sense you and are holy because we are abiding in the vine...we are not going to come back with Jesus so we can learn to be holy or to learn his ways...at the Second Coming he is not coming to educate us on how to be holy..he is coming to reward us for being holy.

In order to come back with Jesus at the Second Coming, you would be in glorified bodies...Revelation shows the bride coming down from heaven, but it does not just have saints from the New Testament era, it has both the 12 Tribes and also the 12 Apostles...this is not a building made up of wood and bricks, it consists of people...the city of God is made up of his people, it is the congregation of the saints. What John saw coming down out of heaven was the General Assembly, the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven and the spirits of just men made perfect as stated below: 

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To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Moses acknowledged the people that followed him out of Egypt had their names in the book of life as stated here:

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And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

Here again God states he would blot out the names from the book of life of those who had sinned against him:

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And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:

The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

 

It was acknowledged their names were in the book of life and God said whoever sins against me I will blot out his name...but the names of those who did not sin are still written in the book of life...hence Paul said 'Some' of the branches were broken off...those who were not broken off because of unbelief is the true seed of Abraham like he said 'If you are Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heir of the promise.'

The branches that were not broken off remained in the vine...the vine is Jesus...Jesus said I am the true vine and ye are the branches...everyone in me who does not bear fruit he taketh away...The unbelieving of Israel who did not bear fruit were taken away, but those who continued to believe remained IN CHRIST. 

So one thing we want to get at here is the phrase 'the dead in Christ' shall rise first.' It is often stated that this only pertains to New Testament saints and the old Testament saints were not in Christ, but this is not what Paul or Jesus said. 

So we have people in the Old Testament who have their names in the book of life and we also have New Testament saints whose names are in the book of life:

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And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life.

So the general assembly, or the church of the firstborn consists of all his saints who are written in heaven, whether from the Old Testament era or the new. That would mean the names of Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, Samuel, David, Job, Daniel and all the prophets have their names in the same book of life as Peter, James and John. 

All the saints, both old and new testament, who are coming down from heaven with Jesus at the Second Coming are not coming down to get another chance or so that they can learn of God's ways...no. These are the kings and priests who will rule with Christ for the 1000 years. Those who alive at the time of Christ's return were converted at the Second Coming will be still in mortal bodies but those that come down from heaven will rule over them.

The Church of the firstborn is the same as the Body of Christ, as Paul said, there is only one body...When we, as Gentiles, were saved, we were grafted into the vine that Israel was already in. There was only one vine, but there were the natural branches and then we were grafted in along with them, and this is what Paul said 

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That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So what happens when we get saved? It states we are now fellow citizens with the saints as stated here:

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Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 What household of God? We are no more strangers and foreigners from what? From the household of God...at the time we were grafted in we were made partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree...the same root and fatness that Israel was partakers of before we were grafted in. And when he said we are partakers of the root and fatness of the Olive tree, it is meaning we are now partakes, along with believing Israel, of the root of the Olive tree, which of course is Jesus beings he is the Root and Offspring of David.

And remember, we are not talking about unbelieving Israel, we are talking about those who remained faithful in the Old Testament whose names are still in the book of Life...these are our brothers and sisters in Christ...as Jesus said 'whoever does the will of my father, the same is my mother, my brother, my sister. The saints and prophets listed in Hebrews are not all that exist...as he said the time would fail him to say who they all are. But when he said 'all the saints will be coming with Jesus, he is meaning all the church of the firstborn, all of the General Assembly, all whose names are in the book of life, this is the heavenly Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

So if the faithful of both the Old and New Testament saints are coming down from heaven with Christ at the Second coming, all we have left in both Old and New Testament would be the unfaithful, meaning the wicked dead who would be in the resurrection unto damnation..the faithful of the old testament are not resurrected into mortal bodies to then learn about God's ways, No. The faithful are coming back with Christ in glorified bodies to rule with Christ on the earth...they will the priests and kings, not those who are coming up to Jerusalem to learn God's ways.

 

 Blessings to you- Gary

[Sister]

13 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Nicely said IMO, Sister.  All creation is groaning and waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. 

Thanks.  I was interrupted so many times when explaining Zion, I am surprised if what I said makes any sense to anyone!

 

13 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

 

But I don't think we can dismiss how these OT prophecies were fulfilled already on one level concerning earthly Jerusalem/Israel...earthly Zion.  She gave birth before her labour pains came upon her (Is. 66:7)  in 70 AD, giving birth to the Son and His church body before being judged....and the early believers following Jesus' prophetic instruction about fleeing Jerusalem, came out of her and were spared the destruction/judgment to go all over the world bringing the gospel. 

Hi Heleadethme.

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, it was before Zion's labour pains came to her.  Jesus was born flesh and had to mature, preach the NT, build up his fame, and the news had to spread of who he was and why he was sent.  Once the Jews started getting stirred up, I'd say Zion was only going through the Braxton Hicks!  But when Jesus' ministry was finished, and he was captured, entering into his great tribulation, you could say Zion started going into labour.  On the morning that Jesus was resurrected, Zion had finally delivered her child.
Jesus is the only one to date that has been born of Zion.  He is the firstborn of the dead.  To be truly born of Zion, one has to be in the resurrection, and that hasn't come yet.  Yes, the church was born, but that is not the same type of thing I am explaining here. 
 

 

Quote

 

Principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile"....?  And since Israel serves as an ensample and warning to the church.  If this is true, it's important to understand and acknowledge the first fulfillment regarding Israel if it is to effectively serve as a warning to the church.....kind of foundational for how it will be fulfilled concerning the church.  Hosea 2 = Revelation 17 .... Adulterous wife in bed with the world and its kingdoms, until the world turns against her.

(Adulterous wife is what Jesus spoke against:  serving two masters....and it was Israel's sin of "halting between two opinions" when Elijah was calling Israel to repent of trying to serve both God and Baal at the same time.  That is the lukewarm state and why the Lord would rather we even be completely 'cold' rather than being spiritually adulterous.  Friendship with the world is enmity with God.  This is so deceptive a snare and widespread in the western church now.  We all need to examine ourselves truly, and I certainly include myself.)

 

Israel most assuredly serves as an example to the church today.  They witnessed God's power through Moses, and deliverance of their enemies.  They were also given God's instructions and laws to follow showing the difference between Good and evil practices, had God's laws recorded for them, had it taught to them down through their generations, were shown God's wrath on those that disobeyed, and after all that, still managed to be beguiled by the serpent, into doing those things they were instructed not to do.  The church is no different today, having the New Testament which contains the new laws, not as harsh, but repeating the same mistakes by not obeying God.  It all comes down to the nature of the flesh, and the flesh wanting to fulfill it's lusts, whatever it desires.  Man has been the same since the beginning, and the devil has always been there to entice us.

Look, I don't see 'the church' as standing right today before the Lord God, or else the falling away wouldn't be here.  My church is Christ, and the apostles he appointed over us to teach, and can't forget the prophets of old who God used to show us all the things to come.  That's my church.  And without Christ who gives the HS to understand, to comfort, and to show us all the things that are coming, feeding us not only the milk, but much of the hidden things, I would not understand one single bit of all this.

But we all like to think we've got the HS don't we?  So whatever we sow in this field, let it be a testament to us whether it be the spirit of truth or the spirit of error that is in us.  And let us know when to walk away, if the soil we are planting in is not fertile.

  1 Corinthians 4:5   Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

 

[Sister]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes their house was left to them desolate, but there was a believing remnant of Israel who went on and did follow God...as Paul said 'SOME' of the branches were broken off...' so there were branches that did remain in the vine, which was Jesus.

When I say Jesus came out of Israel, or out of Zion, he came forth from the seed of Abraham according to the flesh...his lineage...as Paul said:

Hi Gary

The believing remnant who did follow God through Christ was only a drop in the ocean. 

The scriptures attest to this over and over.

John 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Any Jew that believed on Christ will be in the first resurrection of the saints.  They are not considered remnants.

[Sister]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When I say Jesus came out of Israel, or out of Zion, he came forth from the seed of Abraham according to the flesh...his lineage...as Paul said:

Yes, I am not disputing that.  That's his physical lineage.

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But Zion is the true church of God, consisting of both believing Jew and Gentile...the unbelieving Jews were removed from Zion, but Zion remained the 'Heavenly Jerusalem,' as Paul said in Galatians

Quote

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Yes!

And who ever is in Zion must have the Father and the Son.  It's a new commandment.  No one can come to the Father any other way, except it's through Jesus.  No one.  Not even those who were under the law and kept it well can by-pass Jesus.  To go through Jesus they have to acknowledge him, and let him shepherd them into the kingdom.  It's a process.

 2 John 1:9   Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

 John 6:40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

The remnants of the past who lived before Jesus are not cast out of the kingdom.....nor are they being punished by not being in the resurrection. They are given a great opportunity where they won't fail because they will be brought back in a time where only truth is preached. One truth.  They will be introduced to the Lord and will have to go through whatever he instructs.  Christ will be preparing them for the 2nd resurrection by teaching them everything we have learned, ...and in the end, they are not lost, but still saved.  And the 1000 years is that point of time, carefully planned out for Christ to reveal himself to them.  It's going to be a happy time for them.