The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[not an echo]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:03 PM, AdHoc said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Accidently posted before complete...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I hope you take it up again. It is a momentous affair for it puts strain on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory. It needs to be dealt with.

Hello AdHoc,

I still don't know what happened the other day when this new thread just up and started before I finished my opening post.  I never had that to happen before, so it kinda threw me.  Anyway, I just finished my second post (6 posts back) and wanted to make everyone aware of it.  In it I give "A LAST DAY'S NARRATIVE" of my position(s), which I hope will be in some way helpful, whether agreed with in whole or in part.

I have skim read your (and Revelation Man's) posts, but not yet studied them.  I know that there are some things we don't see the same, but if our goal includes coming to even a better personal understanding, our discussions should be fruitful to that end and edifying.  I have some work (really a lot!) that I need to do in some of my other threads, so I probably won't be back to this thread for a little while, but I won't be forgetting it.

For the cause of Christ's Kingdom---not an echo

[Keras]

Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalise, allegorise, spiritualise or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.

Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realise their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyratian and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.

James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

  On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9  It is those people, the holy ones of God,  who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.

 

Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.

Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for the soon to happen end times.  Jeremiah 23:14

2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!

This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

Ref: REB, NIV, KJV verses abridged.                                                     

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. I think it is time for the interested reader to judge. I thank you for the exchange of ideas.

There's nothing to judge, either Jesus told untruths or no one from the 70th week can be seen in Heaven. 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17. 

People jumble the timing all up on these events. If people sat down and put the book of Revelation in its proper Chronological Order, they would find it much easier to understand these end time events. Lets say we were talking about the history of the USA and were trying to discuss the Civil War, WW2, the Watergate Scandal, the Continental Congress, the 13 Colonies etc. etc. if we did not understand the order they all came in we would really be up against it as per diagnosing the events in full.

Verse 31 is not the Rapture, its the 2nd Coming, the Rapture is Pre Trib, it can be seen vaguely in Matt. 24:36-51, but it was not really an issue meant for Israel, you see Israel as a nation will only repent after the Rapture, a few Jews will IN PART repent during the 2000 some odd year Church Age, but not Israel as a nation, until the 70th week. So, Jesus mentions it only vaguely, because it will affect a few Jewish peoples like Paul, Peter, Mary, todays Messianic Christians etc. The Jews who repent and flee Judea at the 1335-1290 period, avoid the Beasts 1260 day rule, then Jesus shows up to usher in the Kingdom Age on David's throne.

So, while I agree, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Raptured Church (if that is what you are saying) I do not agree its seen in Matt. 24:31, that is the Rev. 19 Second Coming, the Rev. 14 Second Coming, and the Rev. 16:19 Second Coming, all one and the same time period. (Rev. 14:14 is a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture, even in Rev. 14.)

I think the above may just be semantics as per our thinking, but to me the ORDER is very important. So I point out these things in order to stress their relevance, TIMING is key to all of God's End Tie Events.

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

The purpose of this thread will be to examine these questions, to consider the merits of a another interpretation, and to hopefully help towards reconciling some differences of opinion on what the truth is of what John saw.

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

Correct, and the original Greek says out of GREAT TRIBULATION, not THE Great Tribulation. The Church Age is great tribulation, it is not said it is the Greatest Ever Troubles ever seen. They confer that onto it by adding in THE in error. But even if THE was there the MEGA can be pointing to the length, where I get better results than others is I do not get stuck on SEMANTICS per se, or traditional views, I make ALL PASSAGES FIT, or else I do not move on. People have to ignore the 5th Seal words of Jesus and the Rev. 20:4 verse in order to make those seen in the  Rev. 7:9-17 Multitude be 70th week Saints. They are not, nor can they be. 

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

Whilst I agree overall on the Church being in Heaven, not coming from the 70th week, the whole THE (article) argument they make is not relevant because of other verses that make those arguments become null & void. The 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 defeats any argument they have, thus the whole THE argument is a lost cause for them because, Jesus can not lie.

As per the above points, I am not sure where you are going here, but I think I may see an inference to the Seals being opened over the course of the 2000 some odd year Church Age. The Seals are only opened in the PRESENCE of the Raptured Church which we see in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10. Thus it goes down like this.

1.) Rapture is seen in Rev. 4:1 and we see the Raptured Church have THE PROMISES the Church who OVERCAME were promised, they sit at God's THRONE (Rev. 3:21) they have on WHITE ROBES (Rev. 3:5) and they have on Crowns of Gold (Rev. 2:10). We also see them as THE GREAT MULTITUDE in Rev. 5:9-10.

2.) Jesus then Opens the Seals DURING the 70th week, not before. He however indeed MUST open the Seals before the Middle of the week because these 7 Seals LET LOOSE the Judgments that are Written via the coming Seven (7) Trumpet Judgments. Only when the 7th Seal is opened can Judgment FALL on Mankind, that is why it is over in Revelation chapter 8, with the Trumpet Judgments.

And I agree, it can indeed be opened on the very last day or day 1260, heck all 7 "COULD" in theory be opened on that day minutes apart, BUT the painted picture tells us different. Rev. 6 starts the Opening of the 7 Seals. THEN we get a picture of the 144,000 (The Jews Fleeing Judea at the 1290 Event , so the Seals have to start being opened BEFORE the 1290 event, because those 3-5 million Jews ("144,000 is a code") are seen fleeing Judea AND we get a flash sighting of the Gentile Church (with a few Messianic Jews......John was there, https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png)in verses 9-17. 

Then in Rev. 8 the 7th Seal is opened, JUDGMENT FALLS on mankind. 

So, I don't see any Seals being opened during the Church Age at all. But we can see all of these timings if we just look for all the clues. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Revelation Man

[abcdef]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17.  Moreover, when it comes to questions over the sequence of last day's events, it is not difficult to see what one might conclude as a result of it being said of this great multitude that "These are they which came out of great tribulation" (vs. 14).  But, there is much disagreement over the "great multitude" that John here sees and the "great tribulation" that is here spoken of.  Borrowing a little from the questions one of the elder's asked John in verse 13, "What is this 'great multitude' that John here sees, and what is this 'great tribulation' here spoken of?"  A popular reasoning is that the great tribulation here spoken of is in reference to the Seven Year Tribulation Period, or Daniel's 70th Week.  And, if so, this would seem to indicate (at least on the surface) that the great multitude---if this be the Church---will go through this period.  Hence, some support for the post-trib rapture position.  On the other hand, many who hold to the common pre-trib rapture position put forth that this great multitude is not a reference to the Church at all, but to those who will be saved during the aforementioned seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.  And, there are other common understandings.  The purpose of this thread will be to examine these questions, to consider the merits of a another interpretation, and to hopefully help towards reconciling some differences of opinion on what the truth is of what John saw.

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble."  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

Digging deeper, the words "great tribulation" are translated from the Greek words megas  and thlipsis  respectively.  Almost as often, thlipsis  is translated "trouble" or "affliction."  Paul used the word thlipsis  in II Corinthians 1:8 to describe what he and Timothy went through in Asia, saying also, "we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life."  Stephen used the words, megas thlipsis, translated "great affliction",  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff ).  These same words are also used in a warning given to the church in Thyatira (Rev. 2:22).  The point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week, or that time so many refer to as "The Great Tribulation."  Thus, it is clear scripturally that great tribulation doesn't necessarily mean Daniel's 70th Week.  For more on this, consider my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!

The position of the interpretation I put forth concerning our present focus is similar to the preceding narrative.  With the Church being raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, the day this seal is opened could begin something like the following, using the reader (if saved) and a lost spouse as an example:

On a Monday morning at about 1:28 a.m. CST (remember, this is just an example!), Christ, "The Lamb",  opens the 6th Seal and leaves the portals of glory to make a sign appearance and for the gathering of the Church.  Concurrent with this, you are startled awake by a great earthquake.  Next thing you know, WHEW!  UP YOU GO!, RIGHT THROUGH YOUR BEDROOM CEILING AS IF IT ISN'T EVEN THERE!, AND WHEW!!!  "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"  you are one in a great multitude that has just been caught up by the angels "to meet the Lord in the air."  You are in the number of those who have just been raptured, or gathered by the angels.  Startled awake at the same time you were, but missing your departure, your spouse is absolutely perplexed and fear struck.  Everything in the house is rattling, as if everything is coming apart at the seams.  Your spouse looks out the window and beholds that the moon looks red as blood.  Meanwhile, on the other side of the earth, the sun looks black as sackcloth made of hair.  Suddenly, what looks like a falling star streaks through the sky, and then another one, and another one, and then, and then---the sky does something really weird, as if it is a giant scroll rolling together, infolding itself.

Now stay with me.  After you are safely with Christ, a lot more will happen that same minute, hour, and day, much the same as a lot more happened that September day after the first occupants of the North Tower made it safely away.  Keeping within the time perimeters that Scripture affords, the day the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs, things could progress through the sounding of the 4th Trumpet before that day is done.  Don't dismiss this possibility too quickly.  There is no time frame given during this time that prevents such an understanding.  When this is understood, and everything after the rapture is considered to be associated with the great tribulation, it can truthfully be said that you have "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense of having escaped it.  From your spouse's perspective, you will have just escaped the great tribulation that he or she has been "left" (Matt. 24:40-41) to face.  With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped?  This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14.  My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that.  This particular passage is no different, except it has the added difficulty of the definite article "the" to reconcile.  Because of this, it could be said that there are at least four ways to interpret the passage in question---a right and a wrong way without regard for the definite article and a right and a wrong way with regard for the definite article.  So, what does one do?  One must look to and rely upon the rest of the body of the scriptures and seek for an understanding that will result in perfect harmony.  This is what I have here done.  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

This thread is one of many that I have started that relates to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have put forth.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title, where I give 36 propositions relating to this interpretation and keep a running list of the threads I have started that relate to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

The 144000 are Israel from the first resurrection when Jesus resurrected in 33 AD. Jacob, Moses, David, John the Baptist, for a few.

The multitude is the saved gentiles from the first resurrection in 33 AD. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, etc..

These souls are seen with Jesus and John at the writing of the Revelation in the 85-96 AD ish time period.

These souls are not the "church"/Pentecost gospel kingdom, but are from the time before the Pentecost kindom began in 33 AD.

-----

A time of trouble began when the fourth beast of Dan.7 came into power over Israel in 63 BC, the Roman Empire and Caesar worship. Jesus, John the Baptist, the apostles, all lived during the time of the mark of the beast nation of Caesar and Rome.

Another time of trouble was when the attack of Jerusalem began and the destruction of the 70 AD temple was accomplished.

Another time of trouble was when Israel was scattered among the gentile nations for 1900 tears.

The time of the scattering trouble was ended when Jerusalem was restored to the control of the people of Israel in 1967.

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[abcdef]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened. 

The seventh seal and the scroll were opened in front of John in 90 AD ish.

The content of the scroll is known and has been known since the writing of the Revelation.

It is the story of the 2 witnesses. 

---

The 6th seal is the day of the Lord against Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD ish.

The 6th seal and the seventh seal had both been broken by the time John wrote.

The first four trumpets were already blowing by then also.

--

[Diaste]

Not sure how I missed this one.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

 

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

It's neither 7 years nor 3.5 years. It's a time immediately following the A of D truncated by the return of Jesus to mete out long awaited wrath, prior to the end of the last 7 years. This glaring mistake by nearly everyone has thrown long shadows across the truth of the end of the age, the final 7 years, GT and the return of Jesus.

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

The mistake here is that this particular GT only occurs after the A of D. As Jesus said, "

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

Not only is this GT after the A of D it is also a never before and never again. It will outstrip the horrors of the Inquisition where thousands of believers in Jesus Christ were tortured and murdered, enslaved, imprisoned, sold and humiliated. The GT will surpass the Islamic conquests from 700-1400 AD; a time where estimates of upwards of 275 million were also killed, enslaved and/or imprisoned; many millions of which were Christians. 

One could say the Islamic conquest was GT. But then came the Inquisition in the 12th century, which didn't end until the 19th century. If you weren't Catholic you could be humiliated, imprisoned, tortured or executed. One could say the Islamic conquests that targeted infidels[any non Muslim] was the GT. But there was no A of D as no Temple existed from 700-1400 AD for there to be an A of D.

So even if these dark times could be likened to GT there was no A of D to signal the GT's beginning, and there must be one per Jesus words,

"when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation...at that time there will be great tribulation"

GT is not 2000 years long.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble."  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

To expand on the truths above what kind of GT should the Church escape? The Church didn't escape the Inquisition. That was pretty terrible. What about the 700 years of Islamic conquest? The Church was right in the middle of that. In fact if any time in the ancient past was deemed worthy for the Church to avoid it would have been 700 years of persecution where anyone who was not of the Islamic faith was executed, enslaved or taxed. But there was no rapture then. No A of D either. An A of D must occur immediately prior to the ensuing GT.

So unless there is an A of D there is no GT as described by Jesus at the Olivet Discourse.

So why didn't the Church escape what arguably was the very worst time in the last 2000 years for religious believers not of the Muslim/Islamic faith? 

We are so often focused through ethnocentrism and egocentrism that we in the white, western church seem to forget there is a whole world out there peopled with sincere, faithful, Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ. And it's a world where many of them died for their faith in the Savior and no rapture was there to save them. We just turn a blind eye to that because, hey, it's not us.

What do we say to the millions of followers of Jesus Christ who were tortured, killed, enslaved, had families destroyed, went to prison and died slow deaths? Where was their escape? It doesn't matter really. It won't keep pews shined, congregants enthralled at the latest fictional masterpiece, nor the local church organization flush with coin. 

It simply must be the rapture is only for mostly white American and European believers and we'll just ignore the rest.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

In no way is this factual. No GT can occur before the A of D. Jesus said so.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

The argument GT began in the first century comes from these words of Jesus at the Olivet Discourse. But the GT Jesus tells us about only comes after the A of D. Any proposition GT can occur in the context of the end of the age before the A of D is rendered nonsensical by Jesus own words. 

Since the one and only A of D I know of throughout the ancient world to this day took place in 167 AD there is no GT in effect in 2022, nor in the past 2000 years.

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

When did the A of D happen? No A of D, no GT. 

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

 

Now stay with me.  After you are safely with Christ, a lot more will happen that same minute, hour, and day, much the same as a lot more happened that September day after the first occupants of the North Tower made it safely away.  Keeping within the time perimeters that Scripture affords, the day the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs, things could progress through the sounding of the 4th Trumpet before that day is done.  Don't dismiss this possibility too quickly.  There is no time frame given during this time that prevents such an understanding.  When this is understood, and everything after the rapture is considered to be associated with the great tribulation, it can truthfully be said that you have "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense of having escaped it.  From your spouse's perspective, you will have just escaped the great tribulation that he or she has been "left" (Matt. 24:40-41) to face.

Wrong sense. It's 'out from within' not, 'never was there'.

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped? 

If you did the due diligence you'd know. The above reference is to a personal flight, not harpazo.

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

 

This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14. 

Do you mean like the following example of more than one way to interpret?

The Woman speaks the truth below,

The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ”

Satan has a 'more than one way to interpret' idea.

4“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I know...shocking, isn't it?

 

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that. 

How interesting!

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

 

This particular passage is no different, except it has the added difficulty of the definite article "the" to reconcile.  Because of this, it could be said that there are at least four ways to interpret the passage in question---a right and a wrong way without regard for the definite article and a right and a wrong way with regard for the definite article.  So, what does one do?  One must look to and rely upon the rest of the body of the scriptures and seek for an understanding that will result in perfect harmony.  This is what I have here done.

Other than missing the fact the GT only begins AFTER the A of D, sure.

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

 

  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

A false interpretation. But sure, an interpretation. Like the one in Gen 3:4

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

Sooo....the seals are opened, the book is read...but the book remains unopened? Is this some metaphysical thing like the sound of one hand clapping?

On 6/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, not an echo said:

This thread is one of many that I have started that relates to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have put forth.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title, where I give 36 propositions relating to this interpretation and keep a running list of the threads I have started that relate to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

[not an echo]

On 6/8/2022 at 7:15 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17. 

People jumble the timing all up on these events. If people sat down and put the book of Revelation in its proper Chronological Order, they would find it much easier to understand these end time events. Lets say we were talking about the history of the USA and were trying to discuss the Civil War, WW2, the Watergate Scandal, the Continental Congress, the 13 Colonies etc. etc. if we did not understand the order they all came in we would really be up against it as per diagnosing the events in full.

Verse 31 is not the Rapture, its the 2nd Coming, the Rapture is Pre Trib, it can be seen vaguely in Matt. 24:36-51, but it was not really an issue meant for Israel, you see Israel as a nation will only repent after the Rapture, a few Jews will IN PART repent during the 2000 some odd year Church Age, but not Israel as a nation, until the 70th week. So, Jesus mentions it only vaguely, because it will affect a few Jewish peoples like Paul, Peter, Mary, todays Messianic Christians etc. The Jews who repent and flee Judea at the 1335-1290 period, avoid the Beasts 1260 day rule, then Jesus shows up to usher in the Kingdom Age on David's throne.

So, while I agree, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Raptured Church (if that is what you are saying) I do nit agree its seen in Matt. 24:31, that is the Rev. 19 Second Coming, the Rev. 14 Second Coming, and the Rev. 16:19 Second Coming, all one and the same time period.

I think the above may just be semantics as per our thinking, but to me the ORDER is very important. So I point out thee things in order to stress their relevance, TIMING is key to all of God's End Tie Events.

Hello Revelation Man,

Concerning your reply as a whole, do you believe (as I do) that what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 concerns the time of the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal?  Said another way, do you see Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 as being like prophetic puzzle pieces that fit with the prophetic puzzle pieces of the 6th Seal?  My position concerning the rapture is pre-Daniel's 70th Week as well---just not in accord with the common understanding.

On 6/8/2022 at 7:15 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

As per the above points, I am not sure where you are going here, but I think I may see an inference to the Seals being opened over the course of the 2000 some odd year Church Age. The Seals are only opened in the PRESENCE of the Raptured Church which we see in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10. Thus it goes down like this.

Consider again the opening three verses of The Revelation...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

2 Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

On the basis of the way The Revelation opens, which is foundational, Christians, even in John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for at least some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  What are your thoughts concerning what was "at hand" to begin to take place?

On 6/8/2022 at 7:15 PM, Revelation Man said:

1.) Rapture is seen in Rev. 4:1 and we see the Raptured Church have THE PROMISES the Church who OVERCAME were promised, they sit at God's THRONE (Rev. 3:21) they have on WHITE ROBES (Rev. 3:5) and they have on Crowns of Gold (Rev. 2:10). We also see them as THE GREAT MULTITUDE inn Rev. 5:9-10.

When John was given his invite to "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:10), with everything else that he saw, it should not be surprising to find that he also saw all those who had gone on before him---from Adam to whoever was the last to enter the Portals of Glory just before he got his invite.  I'm taking it that you see the 24 elders as representing the Church---something that I know has long been put forth by the scholars holding to the common pre-trib view.  Also, I certainly agree with you that the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9 is the Church---something that has long been denied by the scholars holding to the common pre-trib view.  For now, how are you coming to your latter conclusion (which we share), with the evidence we have that John's seeing of this "great multitude" connects hard with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal?

On 6/8/2022 at 7:15 PM, Revelation Man said:

2.) Jesus then Opens the Seals DURING the 70th week, not before. He however indeed MUST open the Seals before the Middle of the week because these 7 Seals LET LOOSE the Judgments that are Written via the coming Seven (7) Trumpet Judgments. Only when the 7th Seal is opened can Judgment FALL on Mankind, that is why it is over in Revelation chapter 8, with the Trumpet Judgments.

And I agree, it can indeed be opened on the very last day or day 1260, heck all 7 "COULD" in theory be opened on that day minutes apart, BUT the painted picture tells us different. Rev. 6 starts the Opening of the 7 Seals. THEN we get a picture of the 144,000 (The Jews Fleeing Judea at the 1290 Event , so the Seals have to start being opened BEFORE the 1290 event, because those 3-5 million Jews (144,000) are seen fleeing Judea AND we get a flash sighting of the Gentile Church (with a few Messianic Jews......John was there, https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png)in verses 9-17. 

Then in Rev. 8 the 7th Seal is opened, JUDGMENT FALLS on mankind. 

So, I don't see any Seals being opened during the Church Age at all. But we can see these timings id we just look for all the clues. 

Scripturally, where do you get that the seals are opened "DURING the 70th week, not before"?  According to The Revelation, the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun are not seen until Revelation 11:1-3, during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  Just to clarify my position, it is the first 3-1/2 years that Revelation 11:3-14 concern.  This leaves the last 3-1/2 years, which 11:15-19:21 concern and happen during the period of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 12:6;  12:14;  13:5).

[not an echo]

On 6/9/2022 at 1:50 PM, abcdef said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17.  Moreover, when it comes to questions over the sequence of last day's events, it is not difficult to see what one might conclude as a result of it being said of this great multitude that "These are they which came out of great tribulation" (vs. 14).  But, there is much disagreement over the "great multitude" that John here sees and the "great tribulation" that is here spoken of.  Borrowing a little from the questions one of the elder's asked John in verse 13, "What is this 'great multitude' that John here sees, and what is this 'great tribulation' here spoken of?"  A popular reasoning is that the great tribulation here spoken of is in reference to the Seven Year Tribulation Period, or Daniel's 70th Week.  And, if so, this would seem to indicate (at least on the surface) that the great multitude---if this be the Church---will go through this period.  Hence, some support for the post-trib rapture position.  On the other hand, many who hold to the common pre-trib rapture position put forth that this great multitude is not a reference to the Church at all, but to those who will be saved during the aforementioned seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.  And, there are other common understandings.  The purpose of this thread will be to examine these questions, to consider the merits of a another interpretation, and to hopefully help towards reconciling some differences of opinion on what the truth is of what John saw.

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble."  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

Digging deeper, the words "great tribulation" are translated from the Greek words megas  and thlipsis  respectively.  Almost as often, thlipsis  is translated "trouble" or "affliction."  Paul used the word thlipsis  in II Corinthians 1:8 to describe what he and Timothy went through in Asia, saying also, "we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life."  Stephen used the words, megas thlipsis, translated "great affliction",  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff ).  These same words are also used in a warning given to the church in Thyatira (Rev. 2:22).  The point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week, or that time so many refer to as "The Great Tribulation."  Thus, it is clear scripturally that great tribulation doesn't necessarily mean Daniel's 70th Week.  For more on this, consider my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!

The position of the interpretation I put forth concerning our present focus is similar to the preceding narrative.  With the Church being raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, the day this seal is opened could begin something like the following, using the reader (if saved) and a lost spouse as an example:

On a Monday morning at about 1:28 a.m. CST (remember, this is just an example!), Christ, "The Lamb",  opens the 6th Seal and leaves the portals of glory to make a sign appearance and for the gathering of the Church.  Concurrent with this, you are startled awake by a great earthquake.  Next thing you know, WHEW!  UP YOU GO!, RIGHT THROUGH YOUR BEDROOM CEILING AS IF IT ISN'T EVEN THERE!, AND WHEW!!!  "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"  you are one in a great multitude that has just been caught up by the angels "to meet the Lord in the air."  You are in the number of those who have just been raptured, or gathered by the angels.  Startled awake at the same time you were, but missing your departure, your spouse is absolutely perplexed and fear struck.  Everything in the house is rattling, as if everything is coming apart at the seams.  Your spouse looks out the window and beholds that the moon looks red as blood.  Meanwhile, on the other side of the earth, the sun looks black as sackcloth made of hair.  Suddenly, what looks like a falling star streaks through the sky, and then another one, and another one, and then, and then---the sky does something really weird, as if it is a giant scroll rolling together, infolding itself.

Now stay with me.  After you are safely with Christ, a lot more will happen that same minute, hour, and day, much the same as a lot more happened that September day after the first occupants of the North Tower made it safely away.  Keeping within the time perimeters that Scripture affords, the day the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs, things could progress through the sounding of the 4th Trumpet before that day is done.  Don't dismiss this possibility too quickly.  There is no time frame given during this time that prevents such an understanding.  When this is understood, and everything after the rapture is considered to be associated with the great tribulation, it can truthfully be said that you have "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense of having escaped it.  From your spouse's perspective, you will have just escaped the great tribulation that he or she has been "left" (Matt. 24:40-41) to face.  With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped?  This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14.  My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that.  This particular passage is no different, except it has the added difficulty of the definite article "the" to reconcile.  Because of this, it could be said that there are at least four ways to interpret the passage in question---a right and a wrong way without regard for the definite article and a right and a wrong way with regard for the definite article.  So, what does one do?  One must look to and rely upon the rest of the body of the scriptures and seek for an understanding that will result in perfect harmony.  This is what I have here done.  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

This thread is one of many that I have started that relates to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have put forth.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title, where I give 36 propositions relating to this interpretation and keep a running list of the threads I have started that relate to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

The 144000 are Israel from the first resurrection when Jesus resurrected in 33 AD. Jacob, Moses, David, John the Baptist, for a few.

The multitude is the saved gentiles from the first resurrection in 33 AD. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, etc..

These souls are seen with Jesus and John at the writing of the Revelation in the 85-96 AD ish time period.

Hello abcdef,

When we first see "The 144,000" (Rev. 7:1-8) and "The multitude" (Rev. 7:9-17), this is in the time John is told will be "hereafter" (Rev. 1:19;  4:1)---in the time frame of the opening of the 6th Seal.  How do you reconcile what you are saying with this?

[not an echo]

On 6/9/2022 at 1:59 PM, abcdef said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened. 

The seventh seal and the scroll were opened in front of John in 90 AD ish.

The content of the scroll is known and has been known since the writing of the Revelation.

It is the story of the 2 witnesses. 

---

The 6th seal is the day of the Lord against Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD ish.

The 6th seal and the seventh seal had both been broken by the time John wrote.

The first four trumpets were already blowing by then also.

Similar to my question to you in the preceding post, how do you reconcile what you are saying with this that John is told in Revelation 4...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in Heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.