The Correct Chronology of Revelation Chapters 6 and 7

[tatwo]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I apologize for missing your attempts.  Please, go on.  Don't let the politics of this religious forum get in the way of what I pray will be an education that can't be bought.

Apology and challenge gladly accepted…however no offence was ever in view DA…as for the “politics of this religious forum” well said btw…the annoyance that is the “spirit of religion” is really nothing more than the juxtaposition that qualifies as the “enmity” between the “seed of the serpent” and “Seed of the woman.”

We are not required to stay on “Worthy Christian Forums”…there are other means of interaction available if we were to ever have that thought…though…I see nothing out of the typical norm in regards to the behavior of the Pharisee’s here on WCF. They always search the scriptures…then come away with a desire to kill Christ…as set forth by God in the early pages of Genesis.

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So, lets look at it as if they have been 'deceived' and not evil nor intentionally stubborn and pray for truth to be found. 

Ok...to me it is an issue of disposition...scripturally speaking...Yahshua characterized and confronted the religious of His day...those who searched the scriptures but never came to Him for His life...as evil...their attitude is..."I all ready know all that I need to know from the scriptures"...if you disagree...even if you are Christ in the flesh...you need to die...that spirit is here in full view...they are a beggarly people...whose house is on fire...and it is in "sackcloth" that I call them to repentance...at this time...they're house is left to them desolate.

If perhaps you and I say something here that changes that for any them...I will thank the Lord Yahshua for His awesome power...and celebrate with them...Until then I see those who are deceived "and attacking Christ" as evil.

Thank you for the admonition...

Tatwo

[tatwo]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I see the creatures listed as also the 'kings' of their 'group's as in Lion - King of the Jungle aka wild animals, calf of domestic, man of all, and eagle of birds.

Well I must say…I never looked at it like that…I have a “more detailed”…if you will…picture of the “Four Living Creatures” than what you have stated here…it would seem…perhaps I can get to that at some point.

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If I hear you correctly the command to COME wasn't given to John but to the 'SENDING' of the horse as in come forth, is that correct?

Well…good question…John “was” called by Christ from the throne…through a “door” into heaven…he recognizes that he is now in a place where he can actually see the throne of God (in other words…what was once invisible due to it being Spirit is now visible to him.)…the throne of God is the center of eternity…now is a good time to read the rest of Revelation 4 & 5 and ask for a “Holy Spirit breathed” vision or understanding of just exactly what this brother was seeing…its awesome!

Now picking up in Revelation 6… John watched as the Lamb broke open the first of the seven seals.

Immediately after that he heard one of the four living creatures call out with a powerful voice of revelation sounding like thunder, saying, “Come forth!”

The “voice of thunder” is often attributed to God speaking…since we know that John is near to…or perhaps upon…the throne of God…when “one” of the four living creatures…who is in the center of…and around the throne also…calling out with a powerful voice

It is no stretch to think that Christ is speaking with authority…via this creature...it would seem to reveal that perhaps John was among these “living creatures.” They must be very close in proximity to each other given their location in regards to the throne of God.

What happens next is the appearance of a white horse. Its rider had a bow and was given a crown of victory. He rode out as a conqueror ready to conquer.

We do no disservice to the “written word” to consider that this white horse is dispatched from the throne of God…by the one of the four living creatures…speaking with the voice of Christ Himself…ONLY Christ can speak with the voice of God.

So yes…you heard me correctly DeighAnn.

This is why the understanding of exactly who these "four living creatures"...that speak with the voice of God...are...they are acting in the capacity of the executive function of the throne of God...no less.

How does this apply to "us" you may be asking? Well the full understanding of the "Lion, Ox or calf, face of a man, and eagle" will help us along that journey...shall we?

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

DeighAnn

The problem with understanding the book of Revelation for many, is that they take it without context. All of the important symbols of the book of Revelation...which is a prophetic book and as such it is written in symbols referencing types and shadows...every one of the symbols of the book of Revelation have been previously referenced in other prophetic works throughout the Scriptures…and one of them is the four living creatures.

You will remember, they are right in the center and around the throne. They encircle the throne where the Lamb has been presented and where the One who holds the scroll, the Eternal God, is seated...they are right "next" to Him.

What does that mean? It means they are the closest in the reflection of the glory and authority of the throne: the four living creatures...the face like the lion, like the eagle, like the ox, like the man.

Tatwo...:)

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

DeighAnn

The problem with understanding the book of Revelation for many, is that they take it without context. All of the important symbols of the book of Revelation...which is a prophetic book and as such it is written in symbols referencing types and shadows...every one of the symbols of the book of Revelation have been previously referenced in other prophetic works throughout the Scriptures…and one of them is the four living creatures.

You will remember, they are right in the center and around the throne. They encircle the throne where the Lamb has been presented and where the One who holds the scroll, the Eternal God, is seated...they are right "next" to Him.

What does that mean? It means they are the closest in the reflection of the glory and authority of the throne: the four living creatures...the face like the lion, like the eagle, like the ox, like the man.

Tatwo...:)

Maybe I miss understood the first post.   

What I know of the living creatures. 
They are the same seen in Ezekiel.  
Also, they are set forth in the encampments of Israel in Numbers
North Dan Eagle
East Judah Lion
South Reuben Man
West Ephraim Ox

But Ezekiel tells us lots more
10As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.  
18As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

21When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

22And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

23And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

24And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

25And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

 

Numbers 

1And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

2Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.

3And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.

4And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.

5And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.

6And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.

7Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.

8And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.

9All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.

10On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.

11And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.

12And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.

13And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.

14Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.

15And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.

16All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.

17Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.

18On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.

19And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.

20And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.

21And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.

22Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.

23And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.

24All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.

25The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.

26And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.

27And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.

28And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.

29Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.

30And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.

31All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.

32These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

33But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.

34And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.

Mark 13 and Rev 6
together

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


 

7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.


THE BOOK WAS UNSEALED AND GODS CHILDREN ARE SEALED BY KNOWING AND USING THE INFOMATION WE ARE GIVEN IN THEM SO AS NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.  


Much more than that I don't know.   Have you gotten my attention and shared what you wanted to share with me or am I missing something still?  

As for the other thing - I just try and file it under
 
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV 

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, tatwo said:

Well…good question…John “was” called by Christ from the throne

I guess my question was

when the 'living creature' said COME

was it to JOHN to come and 'look and see'

or was to the HORSES 'to go forth' into the world....

Sorry, I really am quite 'thick' and sometimes just need you to be blunt.  IOW, I'm not good at guessing, I need it straightforward.  

[kenny2212]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I guess my question was

when the 'living creature' said COME

was it to JOHN to come and 'look and see'

or was to the HORSES 'to go forth' into the world....

Sorry, I really am quite 'thick' and sometimes just need you to be blunt.  IOW, I'm not good at guessing, I need it straightforward.  

I guess the "Come" was to John because the horses could not come until the seals were opened. In other words the horses come "automatically" as the seals are opened. Also, if the "Comes" were to the horses, then they could be told to come without having to open the seals. And of course we know from Scripture that didn't happen. Although in some translations (like in the NIV) the text just says "Come" (which could be misconstrued as directed to the horses). In the NKJV though it says "Come and See" (which is definitely directed to John).

Now I hold that the horses are not physical, flesh and blood horses.

Revelation 6:7-8 (NKJV) - 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Definitely Death and Hades won't be riding on physical, flesh and blood horses.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

I guess the "Come" was to John because the horses could not come until the seals were opened. In other words the horses come "automatically" as the seals are opened. Also, if the "Comes" were to the horses, then they could be told to come without having to open the seals. And of course we know from Scripture that didn't happen. Although in some translations (like in the NIV) the text just says "Come" (which could be misconstrued as directed to the horses). In the NKJV though it says "Come and See" (which is definitely directed to John).

Now I hold that the horses are not physical, flesh and blood horses.

Revelation 6:7-8 (NKJV) - 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Definitely Death and Hades won't be riding on physical, flesh and blood horses.

Agreed.  That is why I showed the connection between Revelation and 'the seals being opened' and the answers Jesus gave (Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13) when asked what would be happening and what would be the signs of the end times.  


Mark 13 and Rev 6
together

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.



THINGS that we MUST KNOW or have SEALED (and I saw the number of them that were sealed....) into our hearts and minds to be KEPT SAFE through the hour of temptation, just another way in which we are DELIVERED from the evil to come.  

 

[tatwo]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Much more than that I don't know.   Have you gotten my attention and shared what you wanted to share with me or am I missing something still? 

Well...there is definitely an absolute connection to Ezekiel...and perhaps Numbers as you have suggested.

My point...is...when John was called into heaven...his vantage point gave him the ability to see "everything" in the heavens...as though he was at the "center" of it all...on the throne in other words.

He...John...was among the 4 living creatures...who speak with the voice of God...it is from that vantage point that the 4 living creatures "call forth" the 4 horses and horsemen.

Agree or not...do you understand my perspective?

Do you know who the 4 living creatures are?

Tatwo...:)

 

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Well...there is definitely an absolute connection to Ezekiel...and perhaps Numbers as you have suggested.

My point...is...when John was called into heaven...his vantage point gave him the ability to see "everything" in the heavens...as though he was at the "center" of it all...on the throne in other words.

He...John...was among the 4 living creatures...who speak with the voice of God...it is from that vantage point that the 4 living creatures "call forth" the 4 horses and horsemen.

Agree or not...do you understand my perspective?

Do you know who the 4 living creatures are?

Tatwo...:)

 

Yes, I do see your perspective.  From right there at the throne of God.  I see no reason not to understand it from that perspective.  Is there something more to that?
I thank you for sharing,  but have I missed some Scripture on who the 4 living beings and who they are that you would like to share?  What do you mean do you by do I know who they are?   Do you?  if so, who do you see them as being?

[tatwo]

39 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, I do see your perspective.  From right there at the throne of God.  I see no reason not to understand it from that perspective.  Is there something more to that?

Well that's a start...understanding that when John is called into heaven by Christ that he John is seated on the throne of God in Christ. Additionally understanding that the 4 living creatures are in the same place...is helpful as we move forward.

I would say that it is clear that in Johns depiction of the 4 living creatures they are seen in heaven...in the spirit realm...as spirit.

I did appreciate your connection of these...to those of Ezekiel's vision...they appear to be the same creatures...except in Ezekiel they are on earth.

So these creatures in Ezekiel and John are the same creatures...and they can operate in both the heavenly realm "spirit" and on earth in the "physical" realm.

Are you following?

Tatwo...:)