A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I'll put the case very briefly. The text is below for reference.

You have just stated that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a prime example of a a fairy tale in the Bible. I would like to accord God, Who sometimes hides things, as a God Who wants to reveal things to His friends. He sometimes uses obscure language, and he sometimes uses parables. But 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 is neither obscure nor a parable. The Thessalonians, according to Acts 17, only had Paul teach them for three weekends. Their knowledge was not complete and they labored over some questions.

One of these questions arose from Paul's teachings on the rapture. It was; "If Paul taught that LIVING saints would be caught away to the air, they sorrowed for those saints who had died because they would miss the rapture?" A secondary question arose from this. If Enoch and the Psalmist predicted that the saints would be with Jesus when He came, how could they get from Hades and the grave to the place where our Lord came from - the sky?

Paul answers as follows:
(i) There was no reason to sorrow (v.13)
(ii) All the saints will be with Jesus when He comes (v.14)
(iii) How? Are they not dead an buried and their naked souls in Hades?
(iv) In this way. Those who are alive will NOT PREVENT the dead saints. "Prevent" means "do an action before another".
(v) The Lord will come to the clouds. The Greek word is "Parousia" which means "PRESENT"
(vi) On stopping in the clouds, He will shout and cause a Trumpet to blow. At this time the dead under the earth WILL RISE to the surface of the earth. There they meet the LIVING.
(vii) Then TOGETHER they will be caught away (lit. Gk.) to the air and in the clouds
(viii) This enables ALL to be with the Lord on that day and so the Thessalonians should be comforted (V.18)

The language is simple and unambiguous. There is a Lord DESCENDING Who gives a divinely powered signal for the dead in Christ to RISE. These RISEN will meet the LIVING and TOGETHER the will be transported to the presence of Christ in the clouds. Now, all that remains is to

(i) establish WHY the Church, those who have died and those who are living at Christ's coming, will be transported to the clouds

(ii) establish WHEN this will happen

Number (i) answers number (ii). The rest of the context of Paul's first letter, that is, Chapter 5, warns of TRAVAIL for men (5:3). What is the Christian to do in the face of this threat? "HOPE for SALVATION" (5:8). On what basis shall the Christian have this HOPE? On the basis that Christ is able to save a man from God's wrath and that Christians have not been appointed to this outpouring of God's wrath. What are we SAVED from by our faith in Jesus? Why - God's wrath and the Lake of Fire. Is Christ's death made only for this? NO! It is able to save to the uttermost!

But WHEN will this occur, we ask? When are men saved? When they are in great danger. What is the great danger? The Travail! When will the travail come? Aaaah! We now have a display of God's wisdom. The escape of the Christians from TRAVAIL is when men cry "SAFETY!" That is, this removal from earth as an escape will come as a SURPRISE. It will come when even the Christian is not aware. Why? Because God knew that men would grow weary with waiting. Like Peter, who had to wait for Jesus, says in John 21:3, "I go fishing!" It is innate in men to give up their quests when things delay themselves. So John, an old man already, says that he is in the "Kingdom and Patience" of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:9), and Jesus promises escape from the TRAVAIL in Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

The Rapture is an ESCAPE. Logically it will be before the onset of TRAVAIL. But it is a REWARD to those whose PATIENCE is tested and who don't fall away. In the context of this TRAVAIL, Luke 21:19 says; "in PATIENCE possess your souls"! Hebrews 12 tells us "run your race with PATIENCE" Don't be like the "faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24:45, who, when his Master DELAYED, turned to evil (v.48).

Summary:
- There is a rapture
- The dead saints will RISE to the surface of the earth
- The Living will not prevent them for TOGETHER they are caught away
- The living will have no advantage over the dead
- The rapture is an escape because Christ is Savior
- The rapture will be a surprise, but occur just before the TRAVAIL
- The rapture is God's way of moving the saints into the air so that those normally earth-bound can descend with the Lord from the air (Enoch)

 

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Not one word you gave posted shows a pre-trib rapture in scripture, because it doesn't exist 

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

That is not logical - saying 12 tribes (of Israel) then saying we are not Jew ...

Scripture clearly teaches there is no ethnic distinction in the church

There is neither Jew nor Greek

Edited June 27, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

God the Father ....`may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive UNTIL the TIMES OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)  

The scripture presented references the future "Second Coming" not a pre-trib rapture as claimed 

[Marilyn C]

35 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Scripture clearly teaches there is no ethnuc distinction in the church

There is neither Jew nor Greek

So how can we be the 12 tribes of Israel?

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

The scripture presented references the future "Second Coming" not a pre-trib rapture as claimed 

No, the first restoration is the visible enthronement of the Lord Jesus Christ, on His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) with His Body in the highest realm. (Rev. 4)

From there all the judgments will be executed. (Rev. 8 ff) 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`Who are these arrayed in white robes,and where did they come from?.....These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION,...` (Rev. 7: 13 & 14)

`The earth is the LORD`s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

`Ask of me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession.` (Ps. 2: 8)

John also wrote about great revelation in Rev. 2: 

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Was God going to keep her alive for 2000 years (supposing she did not repent) so she could be cast into the FUTURE great tribulation?

Or could it be that God can create "great tribulation" any time He wants to?

The main point is, John does not begin the 70th week until chapter 1 when the 7th seal is opened and does not arrive at the midpoint until chapter 11. Jesus said the days of great tribulation HE was speaking of would not come until AFTER the abomination. 

Therefore, John was writing of a DIFFERENT great tribulation.

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Do you see this? This answer tells us NOTHING about how this great crowd got from earth to heaven. What it does tell us is how each single member of this great crowd joined the crowd sometime before they were caught up: each one washed their robes by being BORN AGAIN. That is how we all get washed: in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore the GT that these came out of was their combined life on earth as a sinner before they were born again. Since their are probably billions of them, I think God can call their combined tribulation "great."

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

So how can we be the 12 tribes of Israel?

Because scripture clearly teaches children of the "Flesh" Jews or ethnic Israel, they aren't God's children

The Church, children of the promise is the Israel of God, simple and clear

As James 1:1 teaches, to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, "The Church"

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.Jews

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Edited June 27, 2022 by truth7t7

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I can't post scripture in support of a pre-trib rapture,  because it doesn't exist in scripture

Dispensationalism takes the second coming seen in scripture, and claims it's a pre-trib rapture

But you just posted that the Rapture was at the 2nd Coming.  I would like to see Scripture to verify your position..  There is none to support your view.  Some try to tickle other peoples ears with views that are just not there in Scripture.  Post Trib is one of many such positions. Please enlighten us.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[truth7t7]

8 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

But you just posted that the Rapture was at the 2nd Coming.  I would like to see Scripture to verify your position..  There is none to support your view.  Some try to tickle other peoples ears with views that are just not there in Scripture.  Post Trib is one of many such positions. Please enlighten us.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The "Catching Up" or "Rapture" Takes Place On "The Last Day" As Seen Below

 

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

 

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

 

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

 

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

 

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

 

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

 

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

 

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited June 27, 2022 by truth7t7

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John also wrote about great revelation in Rev. 2: 

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Was God going to keep her alive for 2000 years (supposing she did not repent) so she could be cast into the FUTURE great tribulation?

Or could it be that God can create "great tribulation" any time He wants to?

The main point is, John does not begin the 70th week until chapter 1 when the 7th seal is opened and does not arrive at the midpoint until chapter 11. Jesus said the days of great tribulation HE was speaking of would not come until AFTER the abomination. 

Therefore, John was writing of a DIFFERENT great tribulation.

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Do you see this? This answer tells us NOTHING about how this great crowd got from earth to heaven. What it does tell us is how each single member of this great crowd joined the crowd sometime before they were caught up: each one washed their robes by being BORN AGAIN. That is how we all get washed: in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore the GT that these came out of was their combined life on earth as a sinner before they were born again. Since their are probably billions of them, I think God can call their combined tribulation "great."

Hi iamlamad,

yes that scripture needs explanation. Thanks for highlighting it. 

Now we know that those 7 churches of Rev. 2 & 3 were in Asia Minor in the first century. However the conditions of them were not. like - one group was being martyred, another doing well, and another God was going to vomit them out. 

So the conditions are what the Body of Christ has gone through over the centuries. The early church were all attacked by the Romans and many martyred. And this condition has gone on ever since. Then the group that had the doctrine of the Nicolaitans came next, (RCC - separation of clergy and laity). This still goes on today. 

Thus the Lord says to that group with that condition that they will go into the great tribulation. Since those people are around today then the Lord is referring to the great tribulation.

 

As to the Great multitude coming out of the great tribulation, it tells us that they will not `hunger any more, nor thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat.` (Rev. 7: 16) This indicates that they died of the consequences of the trumpet & bowl judgments over a period of time.