Old Dogs New Tricks

[JohnD]

Today a popular Pastor said on TV that there are 5 raptures in the Bible which he defined as taking out.

• Enoch
• Elijah
• Jesus
• The two witnesses (Revelation 11)
• The rapture of the Church (pre-trib)

He also said these were raptured directly to Heaven.

I have utmost respect for this man of God, but was frankly surprised his denominational education outweighed what is generally being more in touch with the leading of the Holy Spirit than this.

1. Enoch and Elijah went to Abraham's Bosom not heaven  (John 3:13)
2. Jesus' ascension to Heaven was as the only human to do so (and that post resurrection)
3. The two witnesses are resurrected and taken to Heaven
4. The rapture of the Church is not pre-trib

The Pastor also made an oblique reference to a delay in going to Heaven in death and that rapture is the only direct path. 2 Corinthians 5:8 says we go directly to Heaven in death as a Christian.

I have attempted to contact this man personally privately but he is entrenched behind layers of diversion addresses and screeners now. Years ago we exchanged letters through snail mail. He was 

quite diligent in reading and answering his own mail in those days. But with the growth of his ministry comes the inability to keep up such a daunting task and have time for anything else. So I am 

NOT criticizing the man!!!

I am leaving his name out of it for just that reason.

[JohnD]

The traditional pre / mid / post TRIB rapture doctrines all hang on the flawed understanding about the 70th Week of Daniel.

While it is a seven year period, it is not one seven year tribulation but two three and a half year tribulations.

The scripture divides the seven years in two this way:

Daniel 7:25 (AV)
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 12:7 (AV)
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:14 (AV)
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

time = 1 year

times = 2 years

half a time = 6 months

Also in this manner:

Revelation 11:2 (AV)
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 (AV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

forty two months = 3 1/2 years

And:

Revelation 11:3 (AV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:6 (AV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1260 days = 3 1/2 years (with a 360 day prophetic year) ← Sir Robert Anderson was knighted for discovering how this 360 day year marked to the day when Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on the donkey's foal. 

According to scripture the 70th Week appears like this:

1290 days from the end of time temple sacrifice will again be abated. Count backwards from the end to day 1230 of the 2520 day 70th Week of Daniel.

Day 1335 (counting forward from the beginning) is the day of the rapture of the Church.

This is not and cannot be date setting since no one knows what actual dates these will fall on... and no one will know when the 70th Week actually began

until the temple sacrifice is stopped.

Christians who refuse to bow before the beast or accept his mark (which could simply be the Star of David ← actually the Seal of Solomon) will be killed. 

Their (our) ability to earn a living, pay rent, buy food, seek medical help, etc. will be stripped away without the mark of the beast.

So Christians who can even survive to the 1335th day will be extremely few in number and even more extremely deep in hiding.

Venturing an opinion here: the devil will already assume Christians have been eradicated on day 1230 when he pulls the plug on Jewish Temple sacrifice.

For now, the Church is steeped in the traditions of man (which is not a good things according to Mark 7:13 / Mark 7:7) and the pre mid post trib rapture is one of them.

Ironically, once you get the 70th week of Daniel correctly the result is the one rapture takes place:

PRE Great Tribulation (last 1/2 of the 70th Week)

MID 70th Week (which is not traditional mid trib which presumes a single 7 year tribulation)

POST Believer's Tribulation (time of the patience of the Saints Revelation 12:17 - 13:18). 

[JohnD]

Jesus gave us a peek behind the veil of death in Luke 16:19-31 as to where people go in death:

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Bear in mind this is before the cross.

Since the day Jesus died on the cross (Luke 23:43), Abraham's bosom has been empty (Ephesians 4:8-10).

He took the former inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom to heaven while He and they were all

disembodied spirits. Jesus rose bodily from the grave three days later to present Himself before the Father

as the resurrected God-man. ← which is why He said He had yet to ascend to the Father.. in that form John 20:17).

Now notice what happens to Christians in death forever after:

2 Corinthians 5:1–8 (AV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Understand, our bodies are not some shell to be discarded:

Romans 8:23 (AV)
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 goes into detail about our actual bodies being perfected in the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 explains how our disembodied spirits will return from Heaven to be reunited with our raised / perfected bodies when Jesus returns (Jude 14).

Point being, we go directly to Heaven (as disembodied spirits) where the Lord Jesus is in our death. 

Jesus is the only resurrected man to date. He is the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5-6).

These are the last days (1 John 2:18) / the First Resurrection.

The general resurrection will come in the end when all are raised to life eternal or judgment. But before the end:

Philippians 2:5–11 (AV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 

[JohnD]

As to the dispositions of Enoch and Elijah...

were they bodily taken / gathered / raptured...?
 

2 Corinthians 12:1–4 (AV)
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)  such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This apparently was Paul's personal experience which he tried to be humble about. And it took place post-cross of Christ thus in Heaven.

The point I am driving at here is the distinction between being in the body or out of the body is not so obvious as you might think.

Even the descriptions of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is very physical sounding:

• pain receptors
• thirst
• comfort
• sight (even over vast distances)
• speech
• hearing
• finger
• tongue

Paul said he couldn't even tell if he was in the body or not at the time.

Since it is appointed for man once to die the  the judgment... it is safe to say Enoch and Elijah may very well have been taken from their physical bodies to the part of Sheol eventually named Abraham's Bosom. 

Note:

Moses and Elijah appeared beside Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. While they appeared to be in physical form, they were disembodied spirits who the disciples recognized at once. How is that possible? That they recognized men they never laid eyes upon? I will not say it was beyond God's ability to preserve Enoch and Elijah in physical bodies in Abraham's Bosom... but it seems less likely given this evidence.

Also Jesus is the first born from the dead. Those previously bodily raised had to die again.

Jesus is the only human (albeit God-man) to ascend bodily to Heaven (John 3:13).

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by JohnD

[The_Patriot21]

The funny thing about end times debates is they rarely seem to accomplish anything other then to further divide the church. That's it. Everyone has their take on the end times...and they're so sure of it they're ready to battle to the death to prove their view over the others.

And there's so many views...the three big ones are pre millennial, post millennial, allmillenial, there's even variants within the 3 major ones, pre mil has pre trib, mid trib, and post trib.

All these different views...and everyone has their key verses and passages they like to bring forth, and then they duke it out until the insults start flying.

And it's all pointless. Completely. See the prophecies are not written in a specific black and white format...on purpose. They use a lot of symbology and the like. Theres obviously a lot of different ways to interpret these scriptures...and you know what, the only absolute way to prove ANY of these theories are for them to actually happen.

So we can't imperically prove one theory over the other why do we continue to divide ourselves over this? I'm not saying debates and discussions on the matter shouldn't happen, but at the end of the day we need to remember 2 things. First, they're not salvation dependent. And second we need to remember that all these theories do have one thing in common, the most important thing in fact, that Jesus is coming back for us. 

That is the most important thing. How He does it in the long run isnt all that important, at least not important enough to divide Christ's church.

Anyway, I'm not pointing fingers. I see no division in this thread whatsoever. Im just adding my two cents in the hope it doesn't turn into another warzone that ends up getting locked or deleted.