servant4christ Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 88 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 40 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/05/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Sower said: Walter said; "You stated: " I understand many hold this opinion, " Uh yeah like "Christians", "servant4christ"?" Yes, he did say that. He also went on to say "Well, quite frankly, they ain't christians" (Walter's emphasis, not mine) as I showed you earlier. They being people that do not believe personhood begins at conception. Do what you will with that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,265 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Sower said: You may want to consider there are many parents, my wife and I included, are looking forward to the day we get to meet our miss carried child. We've been there too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant4christ Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 88 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 40 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/05/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said: There one goes with emotional arguments again. Pointing out that you don't (and cannot) identify with a woman in that situation is a fact, not an emotional argument. 1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said: Feelings, emotions, don't dictate right and wrong. God does. And according to God murder, which is what abortion is, is wrong. It is killing an innocent life. You are presenting your opinion as fact, but that does not make it so. As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, emergency contraception is commonly used after rape. There are those that feel that this is also abortion, but I disagree. I don't know how safe this would be for the 9 and 10 year old girls mentioned earlier, but I suspect it would be much safer than being forced to carry a baby to term - which is exactly what some people want to see happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 17, 2022 56 minutes ago, servant4christ said: Pointing out that you don't (and cannot) identify with a woman in that situation is a fact, not an emotional argument. You are presenting your opinion as fact, but that does not make it so. As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, emergency contraception is commonly used after rape. There are those that feel that this is also abortion, but I disagree. I don't know how safe this would be for the 9 and 10 year old girls mentioned earlier, but I suspect it would be much safer than being forced to carry a baby to term - which is exactly what some people want to see happen. Yes...I presented that Im not a woman and can't fully understand what they're going through is indeed a fact. I presented it as such, I did not pretend otherwise. What I said was, using that to justify abortion is an emotional argument. Which it is. Ok, she's going through trauma. That's a fact. No I don't understand it, that's also a fact. But that doesn't make abortion right. Saying she can murder someone just because she can't handle the emotional trauma is an emotional argument, and not one based upon fact but rather your opinion based upon emotions. See, my "opinion" as you so call it about abortion, isn't based upon trauma, my personal experience or really, anything in my life. It's based upon what God says, in His holy book, which is very adamant and clear that murder, is wrong, and is very clear that life is sacred, not something to be tossed at a whim. While your feelings towards abortion is based entirely upon what you feel, and upon what women who have been raped feel, mine is based upon actual Biblical fact, not my own personal feelings, which is 100% what your opinion is based upon. I can say that with certainty, because had you been basing your opinion upon Biblical fact, we would not be having this conversation. You make the accusation that I am presenting my opinion as fact. Well, your accusation is accurate, I am presenting it as fact, because it IS fact. 100% true, impirical, fact based upon outside evidence -being God's holy, inspired word, the Bible. And if that's a crime, then I'm guilty. I make absolutely no apologies for defending God's holy word and the lives of the unborn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant4christ Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 88 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 40 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/05/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said: While your feelings towards abortion is based entirely upon what you feel, and upon what women who have been raped feel, mine is based upon actual Biblical fact, not my own personal feelings, which is 100% what your opinion is based upon. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not supporting abortion, I am supporting nuanced conversation regarding abortion. I mentioned it earlier in this thread and you probably missed it, but it is my belief that since we do not know when personhood begins, it is reasonable and logical to try to reduce abortions as much as possible. I also believe that there are better ways to reduce abortion that to legislate its prohibition. Paid family leave would be a very good place to start. The United States is completely archaic in this regard. 7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said: You make the accusation that I am presenting my opinion as fact. Well, your accusation is accurate, I am presenting it as fact, because it IS fact. 100% true, impirical, fact based upon outside evidence -being God's holy, inspired word, the Bible. It is very interesting that you claim you are basing your opinion on scripture, yet you do not provide any scripture supporting your opinion. What is factual is that the Bible does not clearly state that personhood begins at conception. 7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said: And if that's a crime, then I'm guilty. I make absolutely no apologies for defending God's holy word and the lives of the unborn. If you do not approve of emotional arguments, you should probably not use them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure of eighty Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 242 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 1,562 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 877 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) On 7/15/2022 at 10:40 AM, servant4christ said: There has been a rather publicized case here in the US of a 10 year-old girl that became pregnant after being raped. There is no reasonable argument that a 10 year-old girl should be forced to have a baby. This is one of the reasons why an outright ban on abortion is not a good idea. I agree. Im against abortion but no 10yr old at that age should be carrying a child to term. At this point alot of people seem to want to win an argument then look at the big picture. Sometimes abortions are needed. On 7/15/2022 at 10:31 AM, Deborah_ said: For most women, to become pregnant as a result of rape is a continuation of the assault. Having dealt with many rape victims through my career, I can assure you that most of them fear pregnancy more than they fear catching sexually transmitted infections. This is why even strict anti-abortion laws usually make an exception for rape. Now I would agree that the baby in such a case is innocent and deserves a chance to live - but few women can cope psychologically with carrying such a pregnancy to term (even if the baby is then adopted). It's hard even for Christians, it's almost impossible for unbelievers. Thankfully the advent of emergency contraception has made pregnancy after rape much rarer. Agreed. On 7/15/2022 at 1:56 PM, Jayne said: But were there mothers 9 years old? There was a 9 year old in Argentina several years ago who was raped by a family member and became pregnant. The reason that it made world-wide news was that her mother didn't want her 9 year old to carry the baby full term and their church, a Catholic church was forbidding the abortion. They were forbidding the mother and the doctor. I could not come to terms with an answer for myself. I hate abortion, but I also hate the thought of a 9 year old ballooning in size to carry a full term baby and her tiny body going through birth. I have trouble with the idea of Christians "forcing" woman and little female children carry a child of a rapist. If they can do it, I believe they should. But what if they can't? I have trouble with that too. Like i said its more of people wanting to win am argument. A lot of people don't want to put in the work to actually make a difference. They'll say well theres plenty of charities and pregnancy crisis centers but its still not enough. I truly feel if you believe the life of unborn children and children period is valuable you'll put your money where your mouth is. Its not enough to say well someone else is doing it-- no you do something to because with the influx of children coming alot of help will be needed. Thats why when a coworker told me about her possibly being pregnant I told her I have clothes, diapers, a carrier..anything she needs bc Its hard. It takes help..it takes a village not lazy feel good one liners. It takes actual help. That part many arent willing to do. 14 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said: Last I checked the baby didn't cause the rape so why should the baby be punished for it? If someone were to say murder my wife would it be ok to just go murder someone else's wife? It's the same logic...punishing the innocent for the crimes of someone else is in no way just, loving, nor Christlike. No they didn't but I understand not wanting to be traumatized further. What if the victim was your wife? Would you be okay raising and loving a child that isnt yours but conceived in this manner? Im not for abortion i just feel some situations may require it. Edited July 17, 2022 by Figure of eighty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray12614 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 665 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 749 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 17 hours ago, Sower said: Potential inconvenience to unwilling host. My children have caused me innumerable inconviences, yet at no time have I contemplated killing them. 2 wrongs do not make it right. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant4christ Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 88 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 40 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/05/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 26 minutes ago, Figure of eighty said: Im not for abortion i just feel some situations may require it. This is what I believe, too. Additionally, I believe there are better ways to reduce abortion than punitive legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,094 Content Per Day: 9.72 Reputation: 13,585 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2022 16 hours ago, servant4christ said: Your sarcastic response suggests otherwise. I don't offend easily, but I do not respond meekly to poor behavior. Since you have at least offered a half-apology, I will answer your question. I stand by my original statement that we do not know - it is even impossible to know - exactly when personhood begins. My opinion is that since we do not (and cannot) know, it is better in a vast majority of circumstances to avoid abortion altogether. However, earlier posts in this thread have mentioned abortions provided to 9 and 10 year old girls. Another post also mentioned emergency contraception. I believe there are certainly situations in which an abortion is appropriate. Having said that, I believe there are better ways to reduce abortions in the US than to make them illegal in some states. Supporting mothers with paid family leave would be a good start. There are many other things that would be helpful, too. Personhood began before you were created. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted July 17, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, servant4christ said: Please don't misunderstand me. I am not supporting abortion, I am supporting nuanced conversation regarding abortion. I mentioned it earlier in this thread and you probably missed it, but it is my belief that since we do not know when personhood begins, it is reasonable and logical to try to reduce abortions as much as possible. I also believe that there are better ways to reduce abortion that to legislate its prohibition. Paid family leave would be a very good place to start. The United States is completely archaic in this regard. It is very interesting that you claim you are basing your opinion on scripture, yet you do not provide any scripture supporting your opinion. What is factual is that the Bible does not clearly state that personhood begins at conception. If you do not approve of emotional arguments, you should probably not use them. Because scripture has already been brought up several times in this post. I find repeating an argument that has already been ignored to be a waste of time. In fact I tend to find debates with those who refuse to listen a waste of time. For example, your accusation that I'm using emotional arguments here. I clearly am not using them. Anyone without an ax to grind can see that. Yet, you throw the accusation out, at least twice now. That clearly tells me you don't have any ground to stand on and you know it. So don't be offended if I ignore you from here on out, as I don't have time to debate someone who has nothing to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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