Hobie_ Posted August 17, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) On 8/15/2022 at 8:52 AM, R. Hartono said: Paul warned gentiles church in Colossians about some Jews who tried to force them to follow sabbath and other Jews festivals and clean food. Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. Im not banning any people to follow sabbath, its just about history. That was the ceremonial laws, need to study your Bible on this. Take a look starting at verse 14, Col 2:14-16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:" This verse is referring to the ceremonial law or Mosaic Law and this is evident by the inclusion of the "new moon" phrase as well as reference to the meat and drink offerings that would take place (compare to Leviticus 23:37). There are two sets of laws in play here, two types of sabbaths; one was described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isn't a single "ordinance" in the 10 Commandments. Now its clear that God made the Sabbath at Creation and even reminded the children of Israel in the wilderness even before the 10 Commandments were given to them on the stone tablets.... Exodus 16 22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Edited August 18, 2022 by Hobie_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 771 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,937 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 5 hours ago, Hobie_ said: That was the ceremonial laws, need to study your Bible on this. Take a look starting at verse 14, Col 2:14-16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:" This verse is referring to the ceremonial law or Mosaic Law and this is evident by the inclusion of the "new moon" phrase as well as reference to the meat and drink offerings that would take place (compare to Leviticus 23:37). There are two sets of laws in play here, two types of sabbaths; one was described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isn't a single "ordinance" in the 10 Commandments. Now its clear that God made the Sabbath at Creation and even reminded the children of Israel in the wilderness even before the 10 Commandments were given to them on the stone tablets.... Exodus 16 22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. There was no Holy Spirit downpour for ancient Hebrew in the desert that bite fowls with their teeth but you dig the old grave of Torah. Nobody is banning you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2022 Mybe actually STUDY Leviticus.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2022 (edited) On 8/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, Hobie_ said: Yet this denies what was written with Gods own finger claiming they follow a "spirit" which cannot be of God... Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Hebrews 4 teaches us how to enter the sabbath rest of God. It's by faith now, the new way of the spirit....not the old way of the letter. Even God's works before He rested from them were only called "good", not "perfect". It's "good" to keep Shabbat, if that is your conscience, but that's not what the Lord is really after....He's aiming higher...for the 'perfection' that only comes by the Spirit, not by the elements of the world such as foods, days, months. Notice the Israelites could not enter the sabbath rest (promised land) because of a lack of the faith needed to enter it. Edited August 18, 2022 by Heleadethme 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Heleadethme said: Hebrews 4 teaches us how to enter the sabbath rest of God. It's by faith now, the new way of the spirit....not the old way of the letter. Even God's works before He rested from them were only called "good", not "perfect". It's "good" to keep Shabbat, if that is your conscience, but that's not what the Lord is really after....He's aiming higher...for the 'perfection' that only comes by the Spirit, not by the elements of the world such as foods, days, months. Notice the Israelites could not enter the sabbath rest (promised land) because of a lack of the faith needed to enter it. Then I can steal, murder, take others wives on the sly, and worship idols and its all ok because the letter doesnt matter, just 'faith'.....Need to study Gods Word for His truth not mans ideas. as its clear.. James 2:20-26 King James Version 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyB Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Hobie_ said: Then I can steal, murder, take others wives on the sly, and worship idols and its all ok because the letter doesnt matter, just 'faith'.....Need to study Gods Word for His truth not mans ideas. as its clear.. James 2:20-26 King James Version 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If you have received the Holy Spirit then you have no desire to steal, murder, take others wives on the sly, and worship idols, or do any other evil deeds. The OT law is external; the laws are written to be obeyed (even though, because of sin's power, that can't be done). Christians have been spiritually reborn and we have the Holy Spirit to be our guide. If you actually have the desire to steal, take others' wives on the sly, worship idols, or do any other evil deeds, then I question your salvation. This applies to all sin! If you have the desire to sin then you are not being led by God's Spirit but by your sinful nature. Good deeds are the result of being led by the Holy Spirit; they are not required. If you think that "works" are a requirement then you are back under the OT law. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted August 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2022 9 hours ago, Hobie_ said: Then I can steal, murder, take others wives on the sly, and worship idols and its all ok because the letter doesnt matter, just 'faith'.....Need to study Gods Word for His truth not mans ideas. as its clear.. James 2:20-26 King James Version 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. The point is a changed heart. If you've received a new heart/spirit you will have ceased from your own works (sin - disobedience to God's commands) and obeyed the Sabbath command by entering it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted August 25, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2022 On 8/18/2022 at 2:00 PM, JimmyB said: If you have received the Holy Spirit then you have no desire to steal, murder, take others wives on the sly, and worship idols, or do any other evil deeds. The OT law is external; the laws are written to be obeyed (even though, because of sin's power, that can't be done). Christians have been spiritually reborn and we have the Holy Spirit to be our guide. If you actually have the desire to steal, take others' wives on the sly, worship idols, or do any other evil deeds, then I question your salvation. This applies to all sin! If you have the desire to sin then you are not being led by God's Spirit but by your sinful nature. Good deeds are the result of being led by the Holy Spirit; they are not required. If you think that "works" are a requirement then you are back under the OT law. If the 'spirit' turns you away from what Christ says, then it is not the 'Holy Spirit' but another. lets see what Christ says... Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. I think a Christian would hold on to and believe what Christ says and the scripture clearly shows, rather than a 'spirit' that teaches against it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted August 25, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2022 On 8/18/2022 at 7:48 PM, Heleadethme said: The point is a changed heart. If you've received a new heart/spirit you will have ceased from your own works (sin - disobedience to God's commands) and obeyed the Sabbath command by entering it. Yes, and guess what it hinges on, even in the new covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-33 “31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. This text contains the basic elements of both covenants and also helps in understanding them. The old covenant has the time, "I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt". It has the covenant partners, "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" It has the covenant objective, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. It has the covenant conditions, "my law" Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10: “8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" Using the same passage which is repeated, the same elements are found for the New Testament. These promises are a divine provision covering not only a transformation of man but also God's participation in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyB Posted August 25, 2022 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Hobie_ said: If the 'spirit' turns you away from what Christ says, then it is not the 'Holy Spirit' but another. lets see what Christ says... Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. I think a Christian would hold on to and believe what Christ says and the scripture clearly shows, rather than a 'spirit' that teaches against it... I have no idea why you're focusing on the commandments, when the Bible clearly says that Christians are to be led by the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit given to us by Christ. Here is some Scripture for you to read and meditate upon... Romans 8:1-11, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. For the outlook[of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousnes1 Moreover if the Spirit of the one[who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you." Nothing could be plainer than what Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome concerning living by the Holy Spirit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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