Jesus' Sacrificial Death

[TempestTossed]

fenwar, I thought it was sort of the backbone of Christianity that Jesus was sacrificed in order to pay the debt for the sin of humanity, and the debt is otherwise paid for by an eternal punishment in Hell. This is shown in Romans 3:22-26:

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

[yomotalking]

I have a bone to pick with this central Christian doctrine that Jesus paid the debt for the sins of everyone when he was crucified by the Romans.  Maybe it is really just symbolic, or maybe God is powerful enough that He made it all make sense somehow.  But, to me, it is sign that the whole religion is just a religion, nothing more.  Please let me explain.

According to the Gospels, Jesus died a horrible death.  I went to a Christian school where I was given a doctor's study about how torturous this sort of death was.  So Jesus went through that, he died, and then his soul went to either heaven or hell, or he just hung out in the grave for three days.  Then he came back to life, just as he was before, only with wounds in his hands and side.

Now I can't really see the difference between this and your normal Roman crucifixion followed by a three day sleep.  However, this is supposed to be God's ultimate sacrifice.  Sure, it may be a great sacrifice.  I would feel bad too if I sent my kid to a hyper-abusive daycare center for a day followed by a three-day stint in a hospital bed.  But it seems to me that there are greater sacrificies being made by human beings all over the planet.  I don't know if you have seen that photo of the bony little African girl scrounging for food in the groung while a vulture waits for her to collapse in a bundle, but that is the sort of life that would count as a much bigger sacrifice in my opinion.

Here is another angle to it: for every human being who doesn't accept this method of payment for their life of sin, they are sent to Hell.  I don't know what sort of Hell this is.  Maybe there are literal fires, or maybe Hell is just a lonely miserable place, but here is how Jesus describes it in Luke 16:22-24:

...the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Be this metaphorical or literal, this is supposed to go on for an everlasting time, or at least "age-during."  Jesus' torment lasted a day.  It could have lasted a million years, but it wouldn't really compare to an infinite time.

I have heard some Christians say that the death and torment of God himself counts for more than the death and torment of mere humans.  Is this the explanation you take?  It seems to be a cop-out more than anything.  God seems to be anything convenient for explaining things that are otherwise hard to explain.  I have my own explanation.

I think the crucifixion of Jesus was not really intended by either Jesus or God.  I suspect that Jesus was a mere mortal who was the leader of his own religious sect.  His teachings angered the sanhedrin, and they had him crucified.  Such an execution was embarassing to Christians, but they soon adopted a doctrine that Jesus thwarted the executioners and miraculously came back to life, and they even cleverly tied it together with prophecy in Isaiah. 

And I think my explanation makes more sense than the doctrine that God made the ultimate sacrifice that lasted three days.  I really see no reason that Jesus couldn't have died forever.  That would count as a greater sacrifice on par with the sacrifices that happen on Earth every day.  Or how about Jesus goes to Hell for eternity, just like everyone who doesn't accept his gift?  That would certainly leave me impressed.  It would make God look like less of a hypocrite.  I was told in church that Jesus came back to life because he conquered death, and at the same time God made some sort of huge sacrifice.  But you shouldn't have it both ways.  It just doesn't make sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The great sacrice doesn't lie within the torture but that it was GOD'S only SON.Would you let your only child die for millions?The point is that JESUS didnt have to die for you and me but HE chose death because it was HIS FATHER'S will.HE chose to die because of HIS love for fallen man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN!!!

Tempest tossed,

Are you here to learn or to sneer at the answers in response to your questions?

I suggest you go back and read the TOS and the SOF of this message board.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17.

e

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes, when people argue with me reasonably, I learn something, I admit I was wrong, and I change my mind.

[TempestTossed]

Where did you get the idea from, that Christ's resurrection nullifies the sacrifice.  Sorry, I don't understand what you are getting at.

e

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me make an analogy. Have you ever played a computer game that was a first person shooter, like Quake? In Quake, if you get killed, you "respawn" a few seconds later with full health and a fresh supply of ammunition. Suppose I had that sort of power. Someone throws a live grenade at you, I dive on that grenade to save you, and I get blown to pieces. But that's OK, because I respawn smelling like a rose. Then I tell you, "Hey buddy, I sacrificed my life to save yours, so you owe me BIG!" That is sort of what I often hear from Christians. "Christ died for YOU!" And I am supposed to be extremely grateful. Do you see now what I am getting at?

[Ovedya]

Tempest,

Which is easier, laying down your life for a friend or laying down your life for a sworn enemy? In other words, if your death insured that one or the other, only one or the other, would live, which would you pick?

[TempestTossed]

Tempest,

Which is easier, laying down your life for a friend or laying down your life for a sworn enemy?  In other words, if your death insured that one or the other, only one or the other, would live, which would you pick?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd pick the friend.

[Ovedya]

Tempest,

Which is easier, laying down your life for a friend or laying down your life for a sworn enemy?

[TempestTossed]

Most of us would.  That's almost a no-brainer, right?

Now, let's just say that you had died equally for both your friend and your sword enemy.  Which of these do you suppose would appreciate your sacrifice more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is hard for me to say. I have a personality that makes it hard for me to predict the emotional responses in my friends and enemies. But I know you are expecting me to say, "my enemies," so I'll just give you that answer and keep playing along so we can get to the point. My enemies.

[Ovedya]

Most of us would.

[EricH]

I have a bone to pick with this central Christian doctrine that Jesus paid the debt for the sins of everyone when he was crucified by the Romans.  Maybe it is really just symbolic, or maybe God is powerful enough that He made it all make sense somehow.  But, to me, it is sign that the whole religion is just a religion, nothing more.  Please let me explain.

According to the Gospels, Jesus died a horrible death.  I went to a Christian school where I was given a doctor's study about how torturous this sort of death was.  So Jesus went through that, he died, and then his soul went to either heaven or hell, or he just hung out in the grave for three days.  Then he came back to life, just as he was before, only with wounds in his hands and side.

Now I can't really see the difference between this and your normal Roman crucifixion followed by a three day sleep.  However, this is supposed to be God's ultimate sacrifice.  Sure, it may be a great sacrifice.  I would feel bad too if I sent my kid to a hyper-abusive daycare center for a day followed by a three-day stint in a hospital bed.  But it seems to me that there are greater sacrificies being made by human beings all over the planet.  I don't know if you have seen that photo of the bony little African girl scrounging for food in the groung while a vulture waits for her to collapse in a bundle, but that is the sort of life that would count as a much bigger sacrifice in my opinion.

Here is another angle to it: for every human being who doesn't accept this method of payment for their life of sin, they are sent to Hell.  I don't know what sort of Hell this is.  Maybe there are literal fires, or maybe Hell is just a lonely miserable place, but here is how Jesus describes it in Luke 16:22-24:

...the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Be this metaphorical or literal, this is supposed to go on for an everlasting time, or at least "age-during."  Jesus' torment lasted a day.  It could have lasted a million years, but it wouldn't really compare to an infinite time.

I have heard some Christians say that the death and torment of God himself counts for more than the death and torment of mere humans.  Is this the explanation you take?  It seems to be a cop-out more than anything.  God seems to be anything convenient for explaining things that are otherwise hard to explain.  I have my own explanation.

I think the crucifixion of Jesus was not really intended by either Jesus or God.  I suspect that Jesus was a mere mortal who was the leader of his own religious sect.  His teachings angered the sanhedrin, and they had him crucified.  Such an execution was embarassing to Christians, but they soon adopted a doctrine that Jesus thwarted the executioners and miraculously came back to life, and they even cleverly tied it together with prophecy in Isaiah. 

And I think my explanation makes more sense than the doctrine that God made the ultimate sacrifice that lasted three days.  I really see no reason that Jesus couldn't have died forever.  That would count as a greater sacrifice on par with the sacrifices that happen on Earth every day.  Or how about Jesus goes to Hell for eternity, just like everyone who doesn't accept his gift?  That would certainly leave me impressed.  It would make God look like less of a hypocrite.  I was told in church that Jesus came back to life because he conquered death, and at the same time God made some sort of huge sacrifice.  But you shouldn't have it both ways.  It just doesn't make sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are some additional facts regardgin Jesus' death to ponder:

1. Jesus was God. It was not that He was a lesser deity, He was God in the flesh.

2. Jesus suffering was not necessarily related to the amount of time He spent in the tomb. His suffering was related to the fact that He (Jesus) who knew no sin, became sin. In other words, even though Jesus never sinned and was perfect, God the Father placed all the punishment for all of the sins ever commited on His shoulders. For that moment the perfect fellowship God the Father and God the Son knew from all eternity was broken. God the Father literally turned His back on God the Son.

3. Jesus action was necessary because God is a Holy God. His sence of justice demands that sinful actions be dealt with in a just manner. Since all humans are sinful, there is no way that they can do anything tro satisfy God's justice. That is because everthing they would try, would fall short. Jesus was Holy (because He was God). His death satisfied God's holiness and justice (which none of us could do)

[TempestTossed]

OK, Ovedya, here is that passage in Romans 5:

5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

So here is the problem: Jesus' death lasted only three days. I have to keep pointing out this problem, and I don't know why. Are Christians so wound up in their doctrine that they are blind to this problem, as if it makes complete sense? I'll put myself in Jesus' place. There I am, getting the everloving snot kicked out of me, getting ripped to shreds, humiliated, and finally dying, like the way Mel Gibson showed it. Three days later, I get up, stretch, visit my chums, and then elevate myself to heaven, where I enjoy an angelic massage, an orchestral symphony, and a fine bottle of Pinot Noir, for eternity. I "died" for my sworn enemies. With a condition. Their lives are saved from everlasting punishment only if they become my willing followers, devoted completely to my will. Shoot, I wish I could be in Jesus' position. If I could give my enemies that sort of choice--I don't know about you--I would temporarily kill myself in a heartbeat.

Edited September 27, 2005 by TempestTossed