Witnessing to Jewish people

[JohnD]

21 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Aaaaand of course this is cherry picked. When you read the entire narrative, which is what you're supposed to do, Hashem is addressing the Levites. I thought Jesus was from Judah? Is he a Levite now?

G-d is talking about some of the laws regarding the Levites and their priestly obligations and privileges'. He is also dictating what the consequences are for a false prophet. He also explains how he will set up a prophet to speak to them since many were afraid to look at G-d or hear his voice. How this applies to Jesus or the messiah in general I have no clue.

Your second post... I have no clue what you're getting at whatsoever.

Moses was the Old Covenant bearer. 

No prophet has risen like Moses until Yeshua.

Yeshua is the New Covenant bearer.

The reference was not just to the Levites. The entire passage includes quotes from what the entire body of Israel stated in Shemot 20:16

15 A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him.		טונָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵֽאַחֶ֨יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֵלָ֖יו תִּשְׁמָעֽוּן:
16 According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."		טזכְּכֹ֨ל אֲשֶׁר־שָׁאַ֜לְתָּ מֵעִ֨ם יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙ בְּחֹרֵ֔ב בְּי֥וֹם הַקָּהָ֖ל לֵאמֹ֑ר לֹ֣א אֹסֵ֗ף לִשְׁמֹ֨עַ֙ אֶת־קוֹל֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהָ֔י וְאֶת־הָאֵ֨שׁ הַגְּדֹלָ֥ה הַזֹּ֛את לֹֽא־אֶרְאֶ֥ה ע֖וֹד וְלֹ֥א אָמֽוּת:
17 And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.		יזוַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֵלָ֑י הֵיטִ֖יבוּ אֲשֶׁ֥ר דִּבֵּֽרוּ:
18 I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.		יחנָבִ֨יא אָקִ֥ים לָהֶ֛ם מִקֶּ֥רֶב אֲחֵיהֶ֖ם כָּמ֑וֹךָ וְנָֽתַתִּ֤י דְבָרַי֙ בְּפִ֔יו וְדִבֶּ֣ר אֲלֵיהֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר אֲצַוֶּֽנּוּ:
19 And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.		יטוְהָיָ֗ה הָאִישׁ֙ אֲשֶׁ֤ר לֹֽא־יִשְׁמַע֙ אֶל־דְּבָרַ֔י אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְדַבֵּ֖ר בִּשְׁמִ֑י אָֽנֹכִ֖י אֶדְר֥שׁ מֵֽעִמּֽוֹ:

 

[JohnD]

Shemot 20:

15 And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.   טווְכָל־הָעָם֩ רֹאִ֨ים אֶת־הַקּוֹלֹ֜ת וְאֶת־הַלַּפִּידִ֗ם וְאֵת֙ ק֣וֹל הַשֹּׁפָ֔ר וְאֶת־הָהָ֖ר עָשֵׁ֑ן וַיַּ֤רְא הָעָם֙ וַיָּנֻ֔עוּ וַיַּֽעַמְד֖וּ מֵֽרָחֹֽק: 16 They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."   טזוַיֹּֽאמְרוּ֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה דַּבֶּר־אַתָּ֥ה עִמָּ֖נוּ וְנִשְׁמָ֑עָה וְאַל־יְדַבֵּ֥ר עִמָּ֛נוּ אֱלֹהִ֖ים פֶּן־נָמֽוּת:

[Jedi4Yahweh]

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Almah, which is in the "prophecy" means a young woman. Saying "it could mean she is a virgin" is meaningless. Almah does not in any way describe her status as a virgin.

Therefore YHVH himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. - Isa 7:14 

I don't see how a young woman conceiving a child can be a sign from God.  Young women have children all the time.  We must conclude this is referring to a virgin giving birth.

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

A sin means to violate G-d's laws. Sin is not some magical substance stuck in our genes. Hashem says we are each responsible for our own sins.

Agreed, even the NT states this.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. - 1Jo 3:4 KJV

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

End of story. The idea we are born automatically guilty violates Hashem's own words. Jew's have never had a concept of original sin and it cannot be found in the Tanakh. We also do not believe in hell, and even if we did the idea one would go to hell simply for being born or for even the most trivial sin is against G-d's own decree.

There are various views on origins of sin in Christianity as well, but most will say iniquity in mankind was passed down from Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden.  No reason to disregard that sin originated with mankind though Adam and Eve.   Even King David said he was born with Sin which was passed down though his Mother.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. - Psa 51:5 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jedi4Yahweh]

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I also posted verses above that confirm this. Show me in the Tanakh where it says "new additions to come" or showing an expiry date. 

You people quote a verse that explicitly explains what it means be "new covenant". Hashem said "I will inscribe it (the law) upon their hearts". What is the law? The Torah.

I agreed Torah is eternal and will never be abolished.   The NT is not a addition to the Torah in same way the Prophets of the Tanakh were not additions to the Torah.  The Prophets proclaimed the Torah not adding or take taking away.  In the same way NT is not adding to the Torah but explaining the Torah.  Even Yeshua said that he came not to abolish the Law and Prophets but to do what was prophesied about him.   Yeshua said that he came not teaching a new doctrine but the teachings (Torah) of the Father.  The Torah teaches anyone that adds or takes away from the Torah is cursed and a false prophet according Deut 12:32 and 13. 

[DeighAnn]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:46 PM, Slibhin said:

Implying that I am willfully defiant or stupid does not endear me whatsoever or incline me to give much weight to the person talking to me.

I don't personally care if Jesus fulfills Christian's idea of Messianic prophecy. Judaism is very clear on what the requirements for one to be the messiah are, and they have not changed to my knowledge one iota in 2000+ years.

- The Messiah must be Jewish, obviously.

- The Messiah must be from the tribe of Judah and a descendent of David. Since Jesus allegedly had no father he could not inherit a tribe. Jewish law is very clear you inherit your tribe via your birth father. Even if you are adopted one second after you are born, you still keep your natural birth fathers tribe.

- The Messiah must reunite the Jewish people and restore the tribes. The Jewish people were not even scattered at the time Jesus lived, ergo he did not do this.

- The Messiah must rebuild the temple. The temple was still standing when Jesus lived.

- The Messiah must establish world peace and bring knowledge of G-d to the world. Jesus did not do this.

Judaism has no concept of a second coming, virgin birth or original sin. A virgin birth has never been a part of Jewish Messianic prophecy and is not even in the Tanakh, Isaiah 7:14 is a mistranslation of "young girl".

Jesus dying for our sins also goes against G-d's own decree that human sacrifice is an abomination to him. Hashem also says we are each responsible for our own sins and cannot assume someone else's.

Ezekiel 18:20 in the Tanakh:

The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

You will never ever ever ever convince me or any faithful Jew that G-d has changed or altered his covenant. Hashem has said, repeatedly, that he always keeps his word and his covenants are binding and eternal. To claim he has changed or altered a single letter of the Torah is a violation of his very nature and would make him into a liar. Unacceptable. Nowhere in the Tanakh does it say his covenant has an expiration date, nor does it ever say "Stay tuned for future additions".

If you can reconcile this then I'm listening. If your answer is to insult me or imply we're all stupid/blind/willfully defiant/don't know our own beliefs then save your breath, I have no ears for that.

I don't understand what kind of 'a sign'  a normal birth OR naming a child Immanuel would be

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT FOLLOWS after

Ask for yourself a sign from YHVH your God either in the depth ask it or in the height above

Doesn't that seem to be an intentional 'dimming' of the Spirit of Truth written therein when reading PRECEPT ON PRECEPT PRECEPT ON PRECEPT...here??


Who is it you believe this is referring to?  

Ps 2
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

 

I hope I am not being rude, I really know like nothing about how the Jewish religion works except what I know from my Bible


And if you already answered this, no need to do it again,  I understand I am several pages behind

[DeighAnn]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:24 AM, Slibhin said:

No, you have not. I gave you numerous chances to make your case and you instead just kept repeating your insistence that it means what you want it to mean. Asserting something repeatedly, no matter how forcibly does not an argument make.

I have made it clear to you I will never accept that Hashem has changed his covenant or altered the Torah by a single letter.

I Chronicles - Chapter 16:14 - 17

14 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout the earth are His judgments. 

15 Remember His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations.

16 [The covenant] which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. 

17 And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

 

Psalms - Chapter 105: 1 - 10

1 Give thanks to the Lord, call out in His name; make His deeds known among the peoples.

2 Sing to Him, play music to Him, speak of all His wonders. 

3 Boast of His holy name; may the heart of those who seek the Lord rejoice.

4 Search for the Lord and His might; seek His presence constantly.

5 Remember His wonders, which He performed, His miracles and the judgments of His mouth.

6 The seed of Abraham His servant, the children of Jacob, His chosen ones.

7 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout all the earth are His judgments.

8 He remembered His covenant forever, the word He had commanded to the thousandth generation,

9 Which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac,

10 And He set it up to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

 

Ezekiel 16:60 - 63

For so said the Lord G-d: I have done with you as you did, that you despised an oath to violate a covenant. 

60 But I shall remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I shall establish for you an everlasting covenant. 

61 And you will remember your ways, and you will be humiliated when you take your sisters, [joining] those greater than you to those smaller than you, and I shall give them to you for daughters, but not from your covenant.

62 And I shall establish My covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord.

63 In order that you remember and be ashamed, and you will no longer have an excuse by reason of your humiliation, when I forgive you for all that you have done," says the Lord G-d.

 

Malachi 3:6

For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.

 

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?

 

Isaiah 40:8

8 The grass shall dry out, the blossom shall wilt, but the word of our God shall last forever.

 

1 Kings 56

56 "Blessed (be) the Lord, Who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He spoke; there has not failed one word of all his good word, that He spoke through Moses His servant.

 

When you claim G-d has altered/changed or gone back on his word you are calling Hashem a liar, and I won't tolerate it. Even if I was convinced Jesus was the Messiah, I still would not accept G-d has gone back on or changed his covenant.

I don't care about your pet theology that you are clearly consumed with. Your cherry picked out of context verses that you are trying to brute force into meaning something they don't do not move me in any way. Make a better case or stop repeating yourself.

 

How are you separating the UNCONDITIONAL Covenants from the CONDITIONAL one?  

TRUE. The Abrahamic Covenant is UNCONDITIONAL.  - father of MANY NATIONS, (not one or two)  exceedingly fruitful, kings shall come of thee.  NEVER GOING TO CHANGE

Kingdom of Israel established forever.  Throne and House of David forever.  NEVER GONNA CHANGE

BUT THE NATIONAL covenant was IF they kept HIS LAWS.   WHAT was in the NATIONAL COVENANT that was CONDITIONAL that could be changed? ALOT as it covered all aspects of a National  Gov and personal laws the temple, priests, blood sacrifice etc.  LOTS of changes.  

SINCE the PEOPLE didn't keep their side, then GOD COULD change it and HE DID, He brought in a better one.  THAT is all in the OLD TEST as well.  

BUT none of that matters because the HOUSE OF JUDAH has been blinded while the lost sheep of Israel are to be found.  Since the House of Judah has never forgotten who they are, they are NOT the lost sheep.  The house of Judah did not ABSORB the House of Israel and if CHRISTIANS would go to THE SCHOOLMASTER they could know all of this too.

The House of Judah brought forth the Messiah whether they like it or not, but the law STILL can not have a jot or tittle pass from it so another reason THEY MUST STAY exactly as they are.  God has a plan.  GOD separated the two nations and until they are made one BY GOD, we need to let it go. 

So, since there isn't a WORD anyone can say that will open the eyes of one who is blinded BY GOD, why don't we quit trying and just ACCEPT THEM AS BROTHERS, working in a different field.   THE law must be carried on and the blindness until all the gentiles have been gathered.  Only then will those who were blinded be GRAFTED BACK IN and EVEN MORE GLORIOUS than before.  The House of Judah probably HATES  the House of Israel because instead of doing THEIR JOB they keep coming at those who are being persecuted BECAUSE OF THEM already  so adding insult to injury. I would be rather angry too.  THEY can't teach us what THEY CAN'T SEE

SO we need to LEARN ourselves about ourselves cause when we do, then everything quits GOING ROUND IN UNPRODUCTIVE CIRCLES.   

I suggest NEVER having this conversation because until GOD DEEMS the time is up, it is a waste of air.  

At least, that is my 2 cents...


 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

55 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

1. Isaiah was addressing the king and was telling him a sign that G-d would protect Israel from a coming attack by Syria. Would good would a prophecy be if it came true hundreds of years after the king was dead?

God spoke to King Ahaz about the northern Kingdom of Israel and Syria alliance would not conquer the Kingdom of Judea.  This is obviously a messianic prophecy because this virgin was going to have child called Immanuel meaning "Elohim is with us" born in the Kingdom of Judea.  No where do we find that this came true in Ahaz's lifetime.  This is God's way telling King Ahaz to stop worrying and doubting God, the Kingdom of Judea is going to succeed and the Messiah born of virgin will come from your Kingdom.

There will always be a descendant of David sitting on the throne here in Jerusalem. Kings and their officials will always ride in and out among the people of Judah in chariots and on horses, and this city will remain forever. - Jer 17:25 

Did the above prophecy fail?

55 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

In this Psalm David is upset about his past conduct, for example his adultery with Bathsheba. Human beings are born imperfect and with the ability to choose to good or evil. In the original Hebrew "in sin" can also mean "with sin" i.e. the ability to commit a sinful act. This does not mean we're somehow just born guilty, we all have a choice. G-d has said very clearly children do not bear the inequities of the parent. Hashem is just, original sin is not.

Why were they born imperfect?  Did God create man imperfect? 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Starise]

6 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I will listen to those fluent in ancient Hebrew when it comes to translations, not forum posters.

IOW only Rabbis.

Should we extend the same amount of trust to you? After all you are only a 'forum poster'. If none of us knows anything beyond those fluent in ancient Hebrew we might as well leave everything up to Hebrew scholars ( sarcasm intended). 

Let's throw thousands of hours of work by hundreds of scholars who worked very hard for a very long time to assure we had modern translations that reflect accurately the meanings.

Am I to assume all Rabbis are going to present to me only the unabridged truth, when we know for a fact several of them have added to and taken away from the originals? Much like the Catholic pope, some of them think they have the authority to 'interpret' and even change words to their liking. 

Maybe you are unaware, that we now have bible software. You might be thinking  In the case of Logos, you get something like 1500 books along with all the original languages and the meanings of their words. Liars can also be fluent in ancient Hebrew.

YOU probably don't know ancient Hebrew, so how could you possibly know what you are being told is correct?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

10 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I will add as a personal note that for a person who claims to be "Jewish", (I do not consider Messianic Christians to be Jewish), you sure use Hashem's name quite frivolously. I find this pretty offensive from someone who claims Jewish kinship. People wonder why we don't accept Messianic "Jews"... aside from the incompatible theology you guys know nothing (or don't care) about our ways whatsoever.

Why do you always result to personal attacks and calling others not Jewish and "you guys know nothing", "we don't accept messianic Jews"?  Why can't you just keep this civil about scripture instead of making personal attacks? 

Also, show me where we are not to use God's name?  This is nothing more than Rabbinic tradition and found no were in Scripture.  In fact the Tanakh use God's literal name over 5000 times in the Tanakh.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Dave-regenerated]

It is a virtually pointless attempt to convince a Jew that their traditions of Talmud, including Kabbalah, have no bearing on the Bible or as Christians call it, The Old Testament.  They are brainwashed from childhood to mix Talmud with Bible.  Unless they separate them, their conditioning will not allow them to open their mind.

 

Sad but true.