The Great White Throne Judgement

[truth7t7]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

No brother. Here is the text of 1st Co 15:20–26

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Verse 25 starts with "FOR", thus coming to a conclusion of what is said before and continuing the the thought. The sequence is then

1. Christ the Firsfruits, then
2. those who are His "at His coming" (the church and Israel)
3. this we know to be about 2,000 years
4. THEN HE MUST REIGN till he has put all enemies down
5. this we know from Revelation 20 is 1,000 years. Magog is an ENEMY
6. but the great slaughter of Hamon-gog produces many more DEAD
7. but death is then conquered by Hades giving up her dead

Your claims are false, when Jesus returns the resurrection takes place, mortal becomes immortal, death is swallowed up in victory (The End)

Scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns "Then Cometh The End"

You falsely believe and teach a Millennium on this earth takes place after the second coming, in complete disregard of the scripture before your eyes below, simple, clear, easy to understand

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[AdHoc]

26 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Your claims are false, when Jesus returns the resurrection takes place, mortal becomes immortal, death is swallowed up in victory (The End)

Scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns "Then Cometh The End"

You falsely believe and teach a Millennium on this earth takes place after the second coming, in complete disregard of the scripture before your eyes below, simple, clear, easy to understand

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You are unable to counter my argument. All you can do is cut the grammar in half. In 1st Corinthians 15 you can see that verse 52 is mid-sentence. If you had added the other half of the sentence the difference is enormous. Here it is;

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed,

"WE" is in OPPOSITION to the rest of the dead. It indicates that what happens in these verses is ONLY for Christians. The way you teach it is that ALL MEN WILL BE CHANGED into bodies fit for the Kingdom. That implies that you teach that all men are born again for this too is a qualification for the KINGDOM (Jn.3:3).

C'mon bro. Simply say that you will consider this new information. Even the great Paul had to rethink things.

[truth7t7]

57 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You are unable to counter my argument. All you can do is cut the grammar in half. In 1st Corinthians 15 you can see that verse 52 is mid-sentence. If you had added the other half of the sentence the difference is enormous. Here it is;

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed,

"WE" is in OPPOSITION to the rest of the dead. It indicates that what happens in these verses is ONLY for Christians. The way you teach it is that ALL MEN WILL BE CHANGED into bodies fit for the Kingdom. That implies that you teach that all men are born again for this too is a qualification for the KINGDOM (Jn.3:3).

C'mon bro. Simply say that you will consider this new information. Even the great Paul had to rethink things.

Scripture below is self explanatory, do you really believe you have me convinced, big smiles!

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place, mortal becomes immortal, death is swallowed up in victory (The End)

Scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns "Then Cometh The End"

You falsely believe and teach a Millennium on this earth takes place after the second coming, in complete disregard of the scripture before your eyes below, simple, clear, easy to understand

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Greetings to you too. First I must say that you have gone to a lot of trouble to answer me and I appreciate this. Thank you. Second, I'm very sorry that you have not read other postings of mine on the resurrection because we don't differ much at all. I'll answer your two main objections quickly as we almost agree.

Shalom, AdHoc.

Thank you for your cordial greeting. It's not often I find someone with such a gentleman's approach to discussion. I believe you are right. We don't differ that much.

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus is the Firstfruits (singular) from the dead. He is this for two reasons. (i) He is the source of resurrection life (1st Cor.15:45), and (ii) He must have preeminence in ALL things (Col.1:18). But because man has more problems than just God's right to the first and best of the harvest, Exodus and Leviticus show us FURTHER aspects of Christ meeting the father's needs and meeting OUR needs. Thus, our Lord ALSO the Lamb of Egypt, ALSO the Sin-Offering, ALSO the Meal Offering. And God, Lord of the Harvest, whether it be seed of the woman, cow, lamb or wheat lays His rightful claim to even a tenth of the harvest.

In this position as Lord of the harvest, God has instituted and regulated His portion of the WAVE OFFERING. And the law of the Wave Offering of the harvest (Lev.23) is a "SHEAF". An "EAR" does not completely satisfy God (vs.10-11). The reason may lie in that our Lord Jesus is fruit from the dead AND He, as the "life-giving-Spirit", is the cause of fruit from the dead. Be that as it may, the "Sheaf" is called "firstfruits" (v.10). I was attempting to explain why these Old Testament saints were raised just "AFTER" Christ. That our Lord Jesus is THE Firstruits (singular) from the dead was never disputed. But I am ALSO correct in calling the "SHEAF" firstfruits. I'm sure you will agree.

Actually, I do not totally agree. Yeeshuwa`s resurrection was UNIQUE - ONE OF A KIND! There were no others so resurrected. It's hard to have a "sheaf," if there is only ONE Person so resurrected!

I don't believe that those resurrected AT HIS DEATH were resurrected in immortal, incorruptible bodies like our Savior has. If they were, then they PRECEDED our Savior by three days! Furthermore, we know very little of their fates! They were raised to life at His death, not at His resurrection. I believe it was the life-giving power emanating from His body as He gave up his breath, the same power that caused the earth to quake and tore the rocks and the veil in the Temple, the same "virtue" that went out of Him when the woman with an issue of blood touched the tsit-tsit (tassle) of His talit (prayer shawl)!

All that we can read about them was recorded for us in Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

That is ALL we know about them! Anything more, is speculation. Therefore, we need to glean as much information out of these few verses as we can.

Mark gave us a different view, but unfortunately, he did NOT have as much information:

Mark 15:37-39 (KJV)

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said,

"Truly this man was the Son of God!"

Neither did Luke:

Luke 23:45-49 (KJV)

45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit":

and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying,

"Certainly this was a righteous man!"

48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

Finally, John wrote from a different perspective altogether:

John 19:30-37 (KJV)

 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,

"It is finished!":

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,

"A bone of him shall not be broken."

37 And again another scripture saith,

"They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Here are the facts as they are presented to us:

AT HIS DEATH:

Jesus yielded up the ghost. 
the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
the earth did quake
the rocks rent
the graves were opened
many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE

AFTER HIS RESURRECTION (three days later):

(many bodies of the saints which slept) came out of the graves
(many bodies of the saints which slept) went into the holy city
(many bodies of the saints which slept) appeared unto many

Because they arose at His death, the account of these saints is found HERE in Matthew 27, associated with His death.

Then, the text of Matthew 27 goes back to the events immediately following His death, beginning with the reaction of the Roman centurion and his companions to the earthquake.

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Also, the sequence was never disputed. Scripture says the Old Testament saints were raised AFTER Jesus simply because our Lord Jesus must have the Preeminence in ALL things.

And yet, we still are not seeing the above Scripture in the same way, because some insist on making this about the others who were raised to life at His death, as though they could be part of the "sheaf!"

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Next, the journey of the Lord from the right hand of the Father to earth is not disputed. My intention was not to give all the details of our Lord's activity in saving Jerusalem, fighting Armageddon and why He will fight in Bozrah. The task I thought lay before me is the misconception of many Christians that because scripture talks of our Lord coming as a Thief and in the Clouds, AND it speaks of Him bursting forth from the clouds, that our Lord makes TWO JOURNEYS. I was showing that one records His "presence" (Parousia) in the clouds where He meets His raptured Church and judges them, and the other, His "Apokalypsis" where He is revealed "to those who pierced Him" - BUT that they are the same journey.

I can appreciate that, and I agree; it was only ONE and the SAME journey, and that INCLUDES what others surmise as a "pretribulational rapture." My "contention" was simply to show that, since He arrives in Jerusalem with a "vesture dipped in blood," then He had already BEEN in the Middle East taking care of Bozrah etc. first, because He said, in the controversy with Bozrah that He would stain all His clothes with their blood, almost as though to say, "Oh, well. That's the LEAST of my concerns!"

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Summarized, it is as follows;
-  Jesus spends the Church age "above all heavens" at the right hand of the Majesty on high" - that is, in His Fathers Throne

Now, here's where it gets "tricky": See, He and His Father could physically "sit on one throne," because God is a Spirit; but who is actually reigning? 

Christians down through two millennia have done a POOR job keeping the Persons of God the Father and the Son of God (notice that I did NOT say "God the Son") separate, mainly by the theology forced upon all the churches (the "Church") through the old Roman Catholic Church (RCC) leaders. Even the Protestants, though protesting against the beliefs of the RCC, have trouble separating Their roles since they came out of the RCC. Even Baptists, who claim they were never part of the RCC to come out of it, are still "caught in the undertow" of this traditional teaching!

There once were those who did NOT believe in the "Trinity" or in the "Three Persons in one Godhead" belief. They were quickly and DECIDEDLY "snuffed" for their beliefs, by the very persons who made all of the churches cow-tow to THEIR OWN belief-system. Their writings were burned, and the RCC did its best to snuff out their memory. Through confessions, councils (particularly the Council of Nicaea), catechisms, and the resulting Nicene Creed or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, they did their best to force all into one mold, calling anything other than what they taught, "heresy." (Yes, if I had lived back then in 325 A.D., I too would have been branded a "heretic.") Even the word "incarnation" is incorrect! Why? Because the Son of God was NOT "put in a body of flesh"; the Scriptures say "the Word was MADE flesh" (John 1:14). Even the word "soul" has been abused and twisted! The "soul" is not something other than "body" and "spirit!" It is the COMBINATION of "body" and "spirit" (breath)! The "soul" doesn't LEAVE the body, when one dies; the "soul" - an "air-breathing creature" - ceases to be a "soul" when one dies! Why? Because he ceases to breathe air!

I don't worry too much about it, because it has little value in how we should live and work in our lives. HOWEVER, there are some things that can't be well-explained by the "Trinity" belief-system. First and foremost, are the many explanations and examples used to describe how three Persons could be considered "ONE God." NONE of these examples and explanations are ADMITTEDLY adequate, like the "three parts of an egg" example. Those who use such metaphors and examples will ADMIT that they fall short of describing the "Trinity."

I've learned, though, that it is IMPORTANT to know the difference between God the Father and the Son of God. It is seen best in Isaiah 53:
 

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace wasupon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

In this passage of Scripture, God the Father is identified as "the LORD" (in all caps, "YHWH"), and the Son of God is identified as "the arm of the LORD" ("zrowa` YHWH").

Verse 10 is the reason for the separation: The LORD bruised "the arm of the LORD," and He was pleased to do so! HE (the LORD) hath put Him ("the arm of the LORD") to grief! Now, the life ("soul") of "the arm of the LORD" can be made "an offering for sin!" This is the ONLY TIME in human history where the two Persons were at odds!

He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of His (the arm's of the LORD) life (soul), and shall be SATISFIED! He (the arm of the LORD) shall bear their (the justified ones') iniquities!

Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 that this is how God justifies an individual, how the Great Exchange occurs!

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).

The Messiah became our sin; so, we can become His righteousness, or rather, the righteousness of God within the Messiah. THAT'S the "Great Exchange!" It's not a "fair exchange," but it is a JUST exchange! Now, God can DECLARE us "righteous," in SPITE of our sin, just as He DECLARED His own Son "sin" in spite of His own righteousness within His Son while He hung on the cross! This was how He could become a propitiation for us! He became our Sacrifice as the Lamb of God! And, through this Great Exchange, we are JUSTIFIED BY GOD!

 

Now, here is another reason for keeping God, the Father, separate from the Son of God: The UNIQUE REIGN of the Son! He does not and has not reigned over the entire UNIVERSE (as Yeeshuwa`, the Messiah of God and the Son of God), as some claim. His will be an EARTHLY ministry! He will reign over the EARTH! This is something that some here on this forum haven't learned, yet.

If the Son and the Father (and the Holy Spirit) were both reigning from "Heaven," then at least one of them would be superfluous! If Yeeshuwa` needed the training, I suppose I could agree, but I STRONGLY BELIEVE He doesn't need any training!

Why did Yeeshuwa` have to be born as a man? Everyone is quick to answer, He needed to be "tempted in all points as we are" (Hebrews 4:15), and He became "a mediator between God and men" (1 Timothy 2:5), but I believe it is MUCH MORE than that! He is also the "wiser than Solomon" (Matthew 12:42; Luke 11:31), and will be the One who "shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end!" (Luke 1:33).

HE was the "Seed" of whom was said to David, "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (literally, "if He is twisted into iniquity"), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever." (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

It wasn't Solomon who was the fulfillment of this Covenant to David, because Solomon was made king while David was still alive to thwart the ambitions of Adonjah (1 Kings 1:5-10, 41-53), and NOTHING takes God by surprise!

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

-  Jesus gets the command to settle things on earth. He descends to a lower heaven and there receives His OWN throne (Rev.4)

Revelation 4 doesn't support this fabrication. It's inventive, but it's not supported in the Greek text at all.

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

-  Jesus opens the seals from this position and then starts His journey downward.
-  Jesus stops in the clouds (the lower atmosphere) and receives His Church "as a Thief". They are judged by Him. But as He is on a journey, the throne is not a fixed "thonos", but a Bema - a traveling throne.

It's interesting, but that's NOT what the word "beema" means!

968 beema (bema)  βῆμα, ατος, τό (bay'-ma). From the base of basis; a step, i.e. Foot-breath; by implication, a rostrum, i.e. A tribunal:
-- judgment-seat, set (foot) on, throne.

939 basis βάσις, εως, ἡ (bas'-ece). From bainoo (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:
-- foot.

And, a "rostrum" is defined as ...

ros·trum| ˈrästrəm |

noun (plural rostra | ˈrôstrə, ˈrästrə | or rostrums) 

1 a raised platform on which a person stands to make a public speech, receive an award or medal, play music, or conduct an orchestra: speaker after speaker stepped up to the rostrum | the winner's rostrum | the composer moved from keyboard to rostrum.

And, a "tribunal" is defined as ...

tri·bu·nal| trīˈbyo͞onəl, trəˈbyo͞onəl | 

noun 

a court of justice: an international war crimes tribunal. 

• a seat or bench for a judge or judges. 

ORIGIN late Middle English (denoting a seat for judges): from Old French, or from Latin tribunal ‘raised platform provided for magistrate's seats’, from tribunus (see tribune1). tribunal (sense 1 of the noun) dates from the early 20th century.

 

It's a raised dais with steps leading up to the platform where the throne or seat is placed!

Now, why does it have to be "His Church?" This sounds like you're accomodating the pre-tribulational rapture theory. And, why are they judged IN THE AIR?! How do "steps" work for that interpretation?

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

-  Jesus then leaves the clouds over Mount Olives and is "revealed" (openly in glory) to Israel. They mourn.

Okay, this requires a little more thought:

First, He doesn't go to Jerusalem FIRST! According to Zechariah 12, He first goes to all the towns and cities of Yhudah first, and THEN He goes to Jerusalem!

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel," saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall herniate themselves), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

4 "In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel (messenger) of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem!"

And, they MOURN because, being raised to life from the dead, they are the great (however many times repeated) grandfathers and grandmothers of the Messiah! They mourn because they see that He was pierced - killed - on the cross by their own great ... grandchildren, the Jews in Jerusalem! They MOURN for the 2,000 years that were WASTED as their own great ... grandchildren continued to deny and reject the Messiah (the Anointed) of the LORD! How ridiculous! How absurd! How ludicrous for them to suffer needlessly all those many years!

We're also taught through Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah) that He attacks Edowm FIRST and dips all His clothes in the blood of His enemies, beginning with Botsrah ("Bozrah")!

By the time He gets to Israel, His clothes are already blood-soaked!

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

-  Jesus proceeds to Jerusalem, Armageddon, etc etc to settle scores.

Yes.

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

-  Jesus commands His angels to collect the "elect" who were scattered to the four winds - Israel.

This is out of order: His messengers collect His elect - His chosen ones - back when you have Him "receiving His Church!" He has them collect them, including those saints (holy ones) who met together in churches, BEFORE He begins to settle the score!

He will do MUCH of His judgment during the Millennium when He begins to reign from Jerusalem, and that will include awarding His elect for their service!

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks once again for your effort. We don't differ much in our understanding. Maybe a point here or there - and maybe its just semantics.

It's a relative matter; we certainly don't differ as much as I do with others, but there are still some points of order that are still in need of agreement. Still, thank you for a very clear presentation of what you believe will be the steps of His Coming. I've enjoyed our banter!

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He will do MUCH of His judgment during the Millennium when He begins to reign from Jerusalem, and that will include awarding His elect for their service!

Will your jesus in Jerusalem be "Chief Funeral Director", for the mortals dying around him in this 1,000 year time span, big smiles! 

Edited November 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, AdHoc.

Thank you for your cordial greeting. It's not often I find someone with such a gentleman's approach to discussion. I believe you are right. We don't differ that much.

Actually, I do not totally agree. Yeeshuwa`s resurrection was UNIQUE - ONE OF A KIND! There were no others so resurrected. It's hard to have a "sheaf," if there is only ONE Person so resurrected!

I don't believe that those resurrected AT HIS DEATH were resurrected in immortal, incorruptible bodies like our Savior has. If they were, then they PRECEDED our Savior by three days! Furthermore, we know very little of their fates! They were raised to life at His death, not at His resurrection. I believe it was the life-giving power emanating from His body as He gave up his breath, the same power that caused the earth to quake and tore the rocks and the veil in the Temple, the same "virtue" that went out of Him when the woman with an issue of blood touched the tsit-tsit (tassle) of His talit (prayer shawl)!

All that we can read about them was recorded for us in Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

That is ALL we know about them! Anything more, is speculation. Therefore, we need to glean as much information out of these few verses as we can.

Mark gave us a different view, but unfortunately, he did NOT have as much information:

Mark 15:37-39 (KJV)

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said,

"Truly this man was the Son of God!"

Neither did Luke:

Luke 23:45-49 (KJV)

45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit":

and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying,

"Certainly this was a righteous man!"

48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

Finally, John wrote from a different perspective altogether:

John 19:30-37 (KJV)

 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,

"It is finished!":

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,

"A bone of him shall not be broken."

37 And again another scripture saith,

"They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Here are the facts as they are presented to us:

AT HIS DEATH:

Jesus yielded up the ghost. 
the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
the earth did quake
the rocks rent
the graves were opened
many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE

AFTER HIS RESURRECTION (three days later):

(many bodies of the saints which slept) came out of the graves
(many bodies of the saints which slept) went into the holy city
(many bodies of the saints which slept) appeared unto many

Because they arose at His death, the account of these saints is found HERE in Matthew 27, associated with His death.

Then, the text of Matthew 27 goes back to the events immediately following His death, beginning with the reaction of the Roman centurion and his companions to the earthquake.

And yet, we still are not seeing the above Scripture in the same way, because some insist on making this about the others who were raised to life at His death, as though they could be part of the "sheaf!"

I can appreciate that, and I agree; it was only ONE and the SAME journey, and that INCLUDES what others surmise as a "pretribulational rapture." My "contention" was simply to show that, since He arrives in Jerusalem with a "vesture dipped in blood," then He had already BEEN in the Middle East taking care of Bozrah etc. first, because He said, in the controversy with Bozrah that He would stain all His clothes with their blood, almost as though to say, "Oh, well. That's the LEAST of my concerns!"

Now, here's where it gets "tricky": See, He and His Father could physically "sit on one throne," because God is a Spirit; but who is actually reigning? 

Christians down through two millennia have done a POOR job keeping the Persons of God the Father and the Son of God (notice that I did NOT say "God the Son") separate, mainly by the theology forced upon all the churches (the "Church") through the old Roman Catholic Church (RCC) leaders. Even the Protestants, though protesting against the beliefs of the RCC, have trouble separating Their roles since they came out of the RCC. Even Baptists, who claim they were never part of the RCC to come out of it, are still "caught in the undertow" of this traditional teaching!

There once were those who did NOT believe in the "Trinity" or in the "Three Persons in one Godhead" belief. They were quickly and DECIDEDLY "snuffed" for their beliefs, by the very persons who made all of the churches cow-tow to THEIR OWN belief-system. Their writings were burned, and the RCC did its best to snuff out their memory. Through confessions, councils (particularly the Council of Nicaea), catechisms, and the resulting Nicene Creed or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, they did their best to force all into one mold, calling anything other than what they taught, "heresy." (Yes, if I had lived back then in 325 A.D., I too would have been branded a "heretic.") Even the word "incarnation" is incorrect! Why? Because the Son of God was NOT "put in a body of flesh"; the Scriptures say "the Word was MADE flesh" (John 1:14). Even the word "soul" has been abused and twisted! The "soul" is not something other than "body" and "spirit!" It is the COMBINATION of "body" and "spirit" (breath)! The "soul" doesn't LEAVE the body, when one dies; the "soul" - an "air-breathing creature" - ceases to be a "soul" when one dies! Why? Because he ceases to breathe air!

I don't worry too much about it, because it has little value in how we should live and work in our lives. HOWEVER, there are some things that can't be well-explained by the "Trinity" belief-system. First and foremost, are the many explanations and examples used to describe how three Persons could be considered "ONE God." NONE of these examples and explanations are ADMITTEDLY adequate, like the "three parts of an egg" example. Those who use such metaphors and examples will ADMIT that they fall short of describing the "Trinity."

I've learned, though, that it is IMPORTANT to know the difference between God the Father and the Son of God. It is seen best in Isaiah 53:
 

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace wasupon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

In this passage of Scripture, God the Father is identified as "the LORD" (in all caps, "YHWH"), and the Son of God is identified as "the arm of the LORD" ("zrowa` YHWH").

Verse 10 is the reason for the separation: The LORD bruised "the arm of the LORD," and He was pleased to do so! HE (the LORD) hath put Him ("the arm of the LORD") to grief! Now, the life ("soul") of "the arm of the LORD" can be made "an offering for sin!" This is the ONLY TIME in human history where the two Persons were at odds!

He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of His (the arm's of the LORD) life (soul), and shall be SATISFIED! He (the arm of the LORD) shall bear their (the justified ones') iniquities!

Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 that this is how God justifies an individual, how the Great Exchange occurs!

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).

The Messiah became our sin; so, we can become His righteousness, or rather, the righteousness of God within the Messiah. THAT'S the "Great Exchange!" It's not a "fair exchange," but it is a JUST exchange! Now, God can DECLARE us "righteous," in SPITE of our sin, just as He DECLARED His own Son "sin" in spite of His own righteousness within His Son while He hung on the cross! This was how He could become a propitiation for us! He became our Sacrifice as the Lamb of God! And, through this Great Exchange, we are JUSTIFIED BY GOD!

 

Now, here is another reason for keeping God, the Father, separate from the Son of God: The UNIQUE REIGN of the Son! He does not and has not reigned over the entire UNIVERSE (as Yeeshuwa`, the Messiah of God and the Son of God), as some claim. His will be an EARTHLY ministry! He will reign over the EARTH! This is something that some here on this forum haven't learned, yet.

If the Son and the Father (and the Holy Spirit) were both reigning from "Heaven," then at least one of them would be superfluous! If Yeeshuwa` needed the training, I suppose I could agree, but I STRONGLY BELIEVE He doesn't need any training!

Why did Yeeshuwa` have to be born as a man? Everyone is quick to answer, He needed to be "tempted in all points as we are" (Hebrews 4:15), and He became "a mediator between God and men" (1 Timothy 2:5), but I believe it is MUCH MORE than that! He is also the "wiser than Solomon" (Matthew 12:42; Luke 11:31), and will be the One who "shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end!" (Luke 1:33).

HE was the "Seed" of whom was said to David, "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (literally, "if He is twisted into iniquity"), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever." (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

It wasn't Solomon who was the fulfillment of this Covenant to David, because Solomon was made king while David was still alive to thwart the ambitions of Adonjah (1 Kings 1:5-10, 41-53), and NOTHING takes God by surprise!

Revelation 4 doesn't support this fabrication. It's inventive, but it's not supported in the Greek text at all.

It's interesting, but that's NOT what the word "beema" means!

968 beema (bema)  βῆμα, ατος, τό (bay'-ma). From the base of basis; a step, i.e. Foot-breath; by implication, a rostrum, i.e. A tribunal:
-- judgment-seat, set (foot) on, throne.

939 basis βάσις, εως, ἡ (bas'-ece). From bainoo (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:
-- foot.

And, a "rostrum" is defined as ...

ros·trum| ˈrästrəm |

noun (plural rostra | ˈrôstrə, ˈrästrə | or rostrums) 

1 a raised platform on which a person stands to make a public speech, receive an award or medal, play music, or conduct an orchestra: speaker after speaker stepped up to the rostrum | the winner's rostrum | the composer moved from keyboard to rostrum.

And, a "tribunal" is defined as ...

tri·bu·nal| trīˈbyo͞onəl, trəˈbyo͞onəl | 

noun 

a court of justice: an international war crimes tribunal. 

• a seat or bench for a judge or judges. 

ORIGIN late Middle English (denoting a seat for judges): from Old French, or from Latin tribunal ‘raised platform provided for magistrate's seats’, from tribunus (see tribune1). tribunal (sense 1 of the noun) dates from the early 20th century.

 

It's a raised dais with steps leading up to the platform where the throne or seat is placed!

Now, why does it have to be "His Church?" This sounds like you're accomodating the pre-tribulational rapture theory. And, why are they judged IN THE AIR?! How do "steps" work for that interpretation?

Okay, this requires a little more thought:

First, He doesn't go to Jerusalem FIRST! According to Zechariah 12, He first goes to all the towns and cities of Yhudah first, and THEN He goes to Jerusalem!

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel," saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall herniate themselves), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

4 "In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel (messenger) of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem!"

And, they MOURN because, being raised to life from the dead, they are the great (however many times repeated) grandfathers and grandmothers of the Messiah! They mourn because they see that He was pierced - killed - on the cross by their own great ... grandchildren, the Jews in Jerusalem! They MOURN for the 2,000 years that were WASTED as their own great ... grandchildren continued to deny and reject the Messiah (the Anointed) of the LORD! How ridiculous! How absurd! How ludicrous for them to suffer needlessly all those many years!

We're also taught through Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah) that He attacks Edowm FIRST and dips all His clothes in the blood of His enemies, beginning with Botsrah ("Bozrah")!

By the time He gets to Israel, His clothes are already blood-soaked!

Yes.

This is out of order: His messengers collect His elect - His chosen ones - back when you have Him "receiving His Church!" He has them collect them, including those saints (holy ones) who met together in churches, BEFORE He begins to settle the score!

He will do MUCH of His judgment during the Millennium when He begins to reign from Jerusalem, and that will include awarding His elect for their service!

It's a relative matter; we certainly don't differ as much as I do with others, but there are still some points of order that are still in need of agreement. Still, thank you for a very clear presentation of what you believe will be the steps of His Coming. I've enjoyed our banter!

My, you're good with typing. That was a fairly comprehensive and eloquent work. Thanks for the effort.

I find that there is not much to say from my side. I've given my arguments for the Old Testament saints rising "AFTER" Jesus. You deny the immortal bodies of those who are raised. This in turn denies Hebrews 9:27 and makes a man die multiple times. This in turn makes multiple judgments for after death comes judgment. This, of course, is your right, but I personally avoid making a system of belief that seems to overthrow so much of scripture.

As to the Triune God, there is much I agree with you on. It is not the theme of the thread, so I'll respectfully withdraw from that one. But I will state my position. I believe that God is ONE as He said, AND I believe He is THREE distinct persons. But what I most strongly hold is that the human intellect cannot cope with this revelation, thus the squabbling of brilliant men down through the centuries. There are just things about our God that boggle the mind. If that is in any way offensive, I'll change that to "my human intellect ... "

The Bema is, to my mind, not worth going to the barricades. I studied who used it and when, and it is contrasted with "thronos" which is a throne fixed to the place of rule. Caesar ruled from Rome. His representatives like Pilate, Gallio and Festus (Jn.18; Act.18, 25). Paul stands before the Bema of Festus but says he stands before the throne of Caesar. It seems plain to me that the Bema is for use in locations distant from the fixed "thronos", but which carries equivalent authority. This is what I established - its judicial position. Of it's construction I said not a word. Fact is, Jesus uses it to judge the Church - and the Church is then in the clouds.

Our difference as to the sequence of our Lord Jesus' crusade against His enemies will have to stay. You have him fighting elsewhere first. I say this is unlikely as Zechariah 14:4 has Him returning to earth on Mount Olivet. Your sequence would have Him leaving Jerusalem in is crisis - not saving it.

Our difference over the make-up of man will have to remain. The grammar of Genesis 2:7 is that the combination of body and God's breath PRODUCED a third part - the soul. This is confirmed in 1st Thessalonians 5:23. THREE parts make a "whole" man. Also, the death of our Lord Jesus His His body in a tomb, His soul in Hades and His spirit back to God in heaven.

Be that as it may, I've also enjoyed our exchange of ideas.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Will your jesus in Jerusalem be "Chief Funeral Director", for the mortals dying around him in this 1,000 year time span, big smiles! 

I dare say that a King of His renown will have His servants bury the dead of Armageddon and Hamon-Gog. But a large portion will go to the vultures. That's probably how they become "dung" - as Jeremiah prophesies. But, as King of Israel He surely authorizes the burial of the slaughter of Gog on Israeli territory (Ezek.39:11).

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I dare say that a King of His renown will have His servants bury the dead of Armageddon and Hamon-Gog. But a large portion will go to the vultures. That's probably how they become "dung" - as Jeremiah prophesies. But, as King of Israel He surely authorizes the burial of the slaughter of Gog on Israeli territory (Ezek.39:11).

The battle seen in Ezekiel 39 below was fought long ago with "Wooden  Weapons", bows, arrows, shields, spears.

Your claim that this is a "Future War" is laughable!

Jesus Is The Lord

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

Edited November 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The battle seen in Ezekiel 39 below was fought long ago with "Wooden  Weapons", bows, arrows, shields, spears.

Your claim that this is a "Future War" is laughable!

Jesus Is The Lord

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

My dear brother, the reason that primitive weapons are used is simply because during the Millennium our Lord commands that all weapons factories will not make weapons but harvesting implements.

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Is 2:1–4)

So also Joel 3:10 and Micah 4:3

[truth7t7]

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

My dear brother, the reason that primitive weapons are used is simply because during the Millennium our Lord commands that all weapons factories will not make weapons but harvesting implements.

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Is 2:1–4)

So also Joel 3:10 and Micah 4:3

All weapon factories disappear in your Millennium

You now have Joes wooden weapon shop left, making bows, arrows, spears, and shields

Sounds like a sequel to the Lord of the Rings, Big Smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited November 26, 2022 by truth7t7