The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[iamlamad]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:53 PM, not an echo said:

...

So, what has happened here is that you have went from shooting yourself in the foot to trying to shoot me in the foot.  If you were nice, you would apologize.

If anyone has been shooting themselves in the foot, it has been you.
My theory requires no rearranging of Revelation OR of Matthew 24.

How you get from "after the tribulation of those days" back in time to the seals amazes me.

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

...

You say, "This is only a rumor as there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  Why do you say "rumor"?  Jesus said what He said and other scriptures interlock with everything He is saying.  In light of our many discussions, I don't know how you could think that your statement reflects anything more than just continued denial.  JESUS SAID, "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31) at which time "shall two be in the field;  the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matt. 24:40), AND PAUL SAYS, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with then in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17), yet "there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  You are making me think some thoughts that I wish I wasn't having to think.

I say "rumor" because that is all it is, a rumor with no truth in it. You are trying to move an event that is clearly "after the tribulation of those days" to a point in time before any part of "the tribulation."  

Perhaps we disagree on terms.
"Tribulation" = the 70th week.
The 70th week =  "the Tribulation."

"Great tribulation" is not a title to any period of time. There will be "days" of great tribulation that will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet and all who work with them forcing people to receive their mark, or lose their heads.

Hello iamlamad,

More and more, when I consider what you say, I don't see your replies as fitting.  Like your lead-in coupled with your last paragraph.  I certainly agree with you that "Great tribulation" is "not a title to any period of time."  Why are you saying this to me?  And, aren't you yourself making "Tribulation" or "the Tribulation" a title to a period of time?

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

I am simply amazed that people imagine they can rearrange Revelation to fit their theory.  For example, I heard one man say, "the 7th trumpet will sound at the 6th seal." That is rearranging. My AXIOM on Revelation is, 

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

That is how sure I am that John wrote things in perfect order, but used parentheses.

Don't you yourself change the order of The Revelation when you count Revelation 11:1-13 as being in "parentheses" to avoid what verse 14 does to your position?  Are you really thinking about what you are saying?  You are wanting to put what you say belongs after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet into parentheses of the 6th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:13 thru 11:14)!

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

With all that said, the gathering Jesus spoke of simply cannot be Paul's rapture for the simple fact of TIME and TIMING. This gathering is after the tribulation (70th week) of those days, while Paul's rapture will take place over seven years previous to this.

You are clinging to the too long held position that the tribulation Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 24:29 is Daniel's 70th Week, and this has become the hub around which the rest of your positions revolve---even to the point of your rejecting what Jesus is speaking about in verses 29-31 as being fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened.

Earlier in this thread I showed the following.  When we combine Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts of Jesus' words concerning the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31), we find the following parallels---in sequence---with John's account of the 6th Seal.  Consider again...

#1

Of the sun being darkened---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#2

Of the moon not giving "her" light---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#3

Of the stars falling from heaven---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:13

 

#4

Of the powers of the heavens being shaken---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14a

 

#5

Of the sea and the waves roaring---Lk. 21:25b

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14b

 

#6

Of those left and their hearts failing them for fear---Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#7

Of the appearance of THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven---Matt. 24:30/equals Mk. 13:26 and Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:16-17

 

#8

Of those left seeing or glimpsing the Son---Mk. 13:26;  Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#9

Of "all the tribes" seeing or glimpsing the Son---Matt. 24:30

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:1-8

 

#10

Of the angel's gathering together of the Elect, or the Church---Matt. 24:31;  Mk. 13:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:9-17

Now iamlamad, what do you reckon the odds are that something Jesus prophesied is paralleled---in sequence---with 10 things that are shown to occur later, and this not be in fulfillment of His words?  The odds would be so astronomical that it would be like there isn't even a chance.

When we see that what Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 is fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened, we can immediately see that the tribulation Jesus is speaking of pertains to the previous seals.  Of course, at this time, it has to be considered when these seals were opened and what they pertain to.  Some believe they haven't been opened yet, and they have their arguments relating to that position.  Conversely, some believe they have been opened and they have their arguments relating to that position.  Of course, some hold to some variation of this.  But, whatever is believed about this, I'm not recalling any who are failing to see that what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29-31 connects hard with the 6th Seal---except you.

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

On your side, the word "gathering" in two different events.
A trumpet sound in two separate events.
Jesus involved in both.

I'm not really sure where you are coming from here.  My position is that the angels' gathering together of the elect that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31 is the same "gathering together" that Paul speaks of in II Thessalonians 2:1, which is just another angle on the being "caught up" that he speaks of in I Thessalonians 4:16-17.  Further, my position is that the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in the same passage is the same as the "Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16-17) and the "Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:51-52) of which Paul also speaks.

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

What? Is God not allowed to have more than one gathering?
Is God not allowed to have more than one set of signs in the sky? 
Is God not allowed to have TWO EVENTS with cosmic signs?

God can have anything He wants.  Interestingly, He has revealed to us much concerning what He wants.  Of your first line, He has only revealed to us concerning one rapture/gathering.  Who knows, there might be 3, or 7, or 12.  But, He has only revealed to us concerning the one, so I'm more minded to learn what He has revealed to us concerning it (II Tim. 2:23).

Of your second and third lines, again, God can have anything He wants.  But, if it's you that wants it, you've got to add to Scripture.

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

Second reason: this gathering gathers from the WRONG PLACE.

Care to elaborate on this?  Be careful.

On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, iamlamad said:

Third reason, this gathering uses angels. Paul's gathering will use the Holy Spirit to raise us up and then gather us to Him.

Hmmm.  I was kinda thinking that maybe possibly the angels and the Holy Spirit could be involved.  So, when I talk about prophetic puzzle pieces, do you really realize what I'm getting at?  You know, like in a scenery puzzle where a tree or a stream or a mountain may be made up of several pieces that come together and interlock?  It's like this with Scripture.  We have to recognize pieces that belong together and then assemble them.

By the way, have you ever read the opening post of my thread titled, The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/)?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

More and more, when I consider what you say, I don't see your replies as fitting.  Like your lead-in coupled with your last paragraph.  I certainly agree with you that "Great tribulation" is "not a title to any period of time."  Why are you saying this to me?  And, aren't you yourself making "Tribulation" or "the Tribulation" a title to a period of time?

Don't you yourself change the order of The Revelation when you count Revelation 11:1-13 as being in "parentheses" to avoid what verse 14 does to your position?  Are you really thinking about what you are saying?  You are wanting to put what you say belongs after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet into parentheses of the 6th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:13 thru 11:14)!

You are clinging to the too long held position that the tribulation Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 24:29 is Daniel's 70th Week, and this has become the hub around which the rest of your positions revolve---even to the point of your rejecting what Jesus is speaking about in verses 29-31 as being fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened.

Earlier in this thread I showed the following.  When we combine Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts of Jesus' words concerning the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31), we find the following parallels---in sequence---with John's account of the 6th Seal.  Consider again...

#1

Of the sun being darkened---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#2

Of the moon not giving "her" light---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#3

Of the stars falling from heaven---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:13

 

#4

Of the powers of the heavens being shaken---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14a

 

#5

Of the sea and the waves roaring---Lk. 21:25b

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14b

 

#6

Of those left and their hearts failing them for fear---Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#7

Of the appearance of THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven---Matt. 24:30/equals Mk. 13:26 and Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:16-17

 

#8

Of those left seeing or glimpsing the Son---Mk. 13:26;  Lk. 21:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:15-17

 

#9

Of "all the tribes" seeing or glimpsing the Son---Matt. 24:30

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:1-8

 

#10

Of the angel's gathering together of the Elect, or the Church---Matt. 24:31;  Mk. 13:27

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal interlude---Rev. 7:9-17

Now iamlamad, what do you reckon the odds are that something Jesus prophesied is paralleled---in sequence---with 10 things that are shown to occur later, and this not be in fulfillment of His words?  The odds would be so astronomical that it would be like there isn't even a chance.

When we see that what Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 is fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened, we can immediately see that the tribulation Jesus is speaking of pertains to the previous seals.  Of course, at this time, it has to be considered when these seals were opened and what they pertain to.  Some believe they haven't been opened yet, and they have their arguments relating to that position.  Conversely, some believe they have been opened and they have their arguments relating to that position.  Of course, some hold to some variation of this.  But, whatever is believed about this, I'm not recalling any who are failing to see that what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29-31 connects hard with the 6th Seal---except you.

I'm not really sure where you are coming from here.  My position is that the angels' gathering together of the elect that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31 is the same "gathering together" that Paul speaks of in II Thessalonians 2:1, which is just another angle on the being "caught up" that he speaks of in I Thessalonians 4:16-17.  Further, my position is that the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in the same passage is the same as the "Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16-17) and the "Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:51-52) of which Paul also speaks.

God can have anything He wants.  Interestingly, He has revealed to us much concerning what He wants.  Of your first line, He has only revealed to us concerning one rapture/gathering.  Who knows, there might be 3, or 7, or 12.  But, He has only revealed to us concerning the one, so I'm more minded to learn what He has revealed to us concerning it (II Tim. 2:23).

Of your second and third lines, again, God can have anything He wants.  But, if it's you that wants it, you've got to add to Scripture.

Care to elaborate on this?  Be careful.

Hmmm.  I was kinda thinking that maybe possibly the angels and the Holy Spirit could be involved.  So, when I talk about prophetic puzzle pieces, do you really realize what I'm getting at?  You know, like in a scenery puzzle where a tree or a stream or a mountain may be made up of several pieces that come together and interlock?  It's like this with Scripture.  We have to recognize pieces that belong together and then assemble them.

By the way, have you ever read the opening post of my thread titled, The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/)?

You and I are simply never going to agree until we arrive in heaven.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Jesus began in that time, and is taking His listeners through the church age. He is not yet talking about the end of the age.] 

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [All these things are for the church age first, and then into the end times.] 

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [Jesus calls all these things He has mentioned at the beginning of sorrows or birth pains. The pains will get worse as the end draws nearer.] 

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [Then when? Church age first, then into the final week.] 

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [Then when? Church age first, then into the final week.] 

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ["And" refers back the the previous verse's timing.] 

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ["And" refers back the the previous verse's timing.] 

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ["But" refers back the the previous verse's timing.] 

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [Finally Jesus mentions the end. This will be done by angels as we read in chapter 14 of Revelation.] 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [Jesus jumped right over the first half of the week and landed at the abomination and division point of the week.  

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [Then when? At the midpoint of the final week.] 

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [Then when? At the midpoint of the final week.] 

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [Then when? At the midpoint of the final week.] 

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [Then when? At the midpoint of the final week.] 

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [Then when? At the midpoint of the final week.] 

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [Then shall be great tribulation. When? After the midpoint of the final week.] 

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [Note verse 21 is Jesus' first use of the word tribulation. In this verse He qualified "great tribulation" with "those days."] 

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [Then when? During the last half  of the final week.] 

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  [During the last half of the final week.] 

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.  [When? During the last half of the final week.] 

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  [When? At His descent from heaven to earth.] 

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  [What will happen when He arrives!] 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  [What days? Of course, if we leave this verse in context, the days He has just been talking about. First the days of great tribulation. Then the days when false Christs and false prophets are showing great miracles: those days.] 

Please explain then why you would jump all the way back to the time of earthquakes, pestilences, wars and rumors of wars that aligns with "the end is not yet? (The time that parallels the second, third and fourth seals.) 

Considering the normal use of the English Language, we should go back to Jesus' first use of the word "tribulation."

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

.

#1

Of the sun being darkened---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#2

Of the moon not giving "her" light---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:24;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:12

 

#3

Of the stars falling from heaven---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:13

 

 

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matthew makes "turned into Darkness" very plain: the sun appears very black."

A very simple question: at what event does the moon appear red? We all know, it is a total eclipse of the moon. Then what makes the sun appear black? 

Does the sun appear black here? It is a total eclipse of the sun. Now let's compare this sign, which will be seen according to John in Revelation before any part of the 70th week.

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If the moon does not give her light, then the moon will be invisible. The only way we can see the moon is IF the sunlight is being reflected to our eyes.

What about the word Darkened. AGain and again you have ignored the true meaning here.

be darkened,  g4654  σκοτισθήσεται σκοτίζωskotizō

 

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

to cover with darkness, to darken

to be covered with darkness, be darkened

of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

metaph.

of the eyes

of the understanding

of the mind

Is the sun a heavenly body? I submit that it is. Therefore, the best definition here is total darkness.  No light coming from ANY natural source: no sunlight, no starlight, no ligh from the moon. (Other verses tell us this also.)

Therefore, by their very definition, these cannot be the same sign: in one both the sun and moon MUST be visible to know and recognize the sign.

In the other sign, the sun, moon and stars will be INVISIBLE.  You cannot see the sun at midnight—it is shining on the other side of the planet. Neither could anyone see the sun of God turned out the lights. That is what "deprived of light" means: NO LIGHT.

Then if we examine the TIMING: 

Here is where we will disagree even more. I think John gives us the best end times timeline in the bible. 

He begins in chapter 4 before Christ ascended back into heaven, and takes us through the entire church age (the 5th seal martyrs covers the entire church age) then to the END of the church age, i.e. the rapture and the start of the Day of the Lord. Then on to the start of the WEEK, then to the midpoint of the week, then to the end of the week, then to the marriage and supper in heaven, and finally to Jesus descent back to earth to Armageddon. Along the way John opens 7 seals, then sounds 7 trumpets and pours out 7 bowls. This is John's timeline.

WHERE on this timeline would be "after the tribulation..."  To answer that, we would probably refer to Matthew 24 where three times in association with "great tribulation" Jesus said, "those days." In Revelation what chapter shows Jesus coming to Armageddon? Of course, it is chapter 19. I submit then that if we wish a parallel, it would be Matthew 24:29-30 with Revelation 19:11-16. The timing is the same: Jesus coming to Armageddon.

Therefore, when Jesus said, "after the tribulation of those days" if we look in Revelation, again we would be in Revelation 19—perhaps 19:1.

I find it impossible to warp time so this point after the tribulation can equal the same time as the 6th seal which is before the tribulation. I am amazed we cannot agree on this.

How would anyone know if the moon was blood red? They would have to SEE the moon. How would anyone know the sun appeared black? They would have to SEE the sun.

On the other hand, go out at midnight tonight and try and see the sun. I defy anyone to see the sun at midnight. It is out of sight on the other side of the planet. It would be the same if God turned out the light from the sun. It would be the same if a volcano created enough dust to cause total darkness. In any case, the sun, moon and stars will be invisible at the Matthew 24 sign. It is a DIFFERENT sign, coming seven years after the 6th seal sign. It is for a different purpose also.

Edited January 13, 2023 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

Don't you yourself change the order of The Revelation when you count Revelation 11:1-13 as being in "parentheses" to avoid what verse 14 does to your position?  Are you really thinking about what you are saying?  You are wanting to put what you say belongs after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet into parentheses of the 6th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:13 thru 11:14)!

...

No, finding verses in a parenthesis does not change the order it was written (rearranging what John wrote). It is still in the same order it was written. What it does do is change the understood intent of the Author. With the parenthesis, the death of the Two Witnesses is near the end of the week. Without the parenthesis, they are put to death just before the midpoint of the week: a HUGE difference in meaning.

Why do you think verse 14 is damaging to my theory? Can you explain that? I see no conflict.

All through Revelation, John mentions events as they begin to occur. I think the two witnesses suddenly SHOW UP right where John first mentions them.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

#3

Of the stars falling from heaven---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:25

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:13

 

WE both know that stars cannot fall to the earth, or earth would burn up. This therefore is probably speaking of a Meteor shower. I see no problem with a meteor shower happening twice.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

#4

Of the powers of the heavens being shaken---Matt. 24:29;  Mk. 13:25;  Lk. 21:26

PARALLELS

The 6th Seal---Rev. 6:14a

 

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

No one really knows what verse 14 means. It might equate with the powers of heaven being shaken, but if it does, it will happen TWICE, around seven years apart.

Does it not bother you that you are trying to equate some event in Revelation 6 with the timing of events in Revelation 19?

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

...

Concerning your opening sentence, I maintain that there is a concept that continues to be obscured by a wording such as this.  What we are actually shown here is that "the great day of God's wrath is come" and the people's concern, "and who shall be able to stand."  When this is fit with the other prophetic pieces of the last days' puzzle, we find that it is the period of the last days' DOTL judgment that begins on this day.  By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31.  These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12 thru 7:17).

The Day of the Lord is not going to be one solar day. It is going to be a very long time. I believe the millennial reign is included due to what Peter wrote. If not, then I would guess the Day will end at Armageddon.

Hello iamlamad,

Just out of curiosity, is your name Lamad?  Like, I am Lamad?

I certainly agree with your first three sentences.  Because of Peter's words (II Pet. 3:10-13) and the fit of other prophetic puzzle pieces (e.g., Acts 2:20), we can know that the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will not end until this world is destroyed (cp. Rev. 20:11 & 21:1).

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Do you equate "the day of the Lord" with "the Day of His wrath?" I do. John begins the DAY as the final event of the 6th seal.

Of your question, yes I do.  Not for sure what all you may be meaning by your last statement, but on the surface, I agree.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

In comparison, John begins the WEEK at the 7th seal.  WHY do I believe that? Because Jesus said to me, "You could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked." This was right after telling me I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." Therefore I knew that whatever marker God used for the midpoint, He would use for the beginning and the end. I am convinced that the 70th week is marked by 7's.

Again, I do not want to call into question what you say the Lord spoke to you.  But, do you think it is possible that you did not understand Him perfectly?  See, I believe as you said that He said that "You could find the entire 70th Week 'clearly marked'"!  Same with finding "the exact midpoint 'clearly marked'"!  It seems though that what you say in your last two sentences is a deduction you made based on your own reasoning.  As I've encouraged you to do before, I would just talk to the Lord about this some more, Bible in hand.

So, in connection with what you say the Lord told you, I see the harbinger of the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week in the "little book" of Daniel being seen "open" in Revelation 10.  This is then supported by the "worship" John sees going on in the "temple of God" (cp. Matt. 24:15 & II Thess. 2:3-4) in the opening verse of chapter 11, followed by the first mentions of the two 3-1/2 year time frames that make up Daniel's 70th Week.  You know what my position is from here---I believe.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Quote

"caught up" by the angels at this time,

God is not allowed to have TWO trumpet sounds in our future? A trumpet does not pinpoint  TIME unless the time is mentioned in the context. Jesus gave a very clear context: "after the tribulation [I read 70th week] of those days."

In your brackets you say, "I read 70th week".  I understand why anyone might read it this way, by how things look on the surface.  But, in The Revelation, and by other prophetic puzzle pieces, we are enabled to see other things of relevance below the surface.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Quote

"caught up" by the angels at this time,

...

The rapture event does not fit with no agree with "wrath and fierce anger."  The DAY cannot begin with the rapture. The rapture must come BEFORE the start of the DAY. Therefore I disagree with your "at this time."

I don't know what you are really disagreeing with me on here.  My statement, "at this time" has to do with the time of "the opening of the 6th Seal."  My position is that with the opening of the 6th Seal, in conjunction with everything else that is described, Christ will make His "sign" appearance and the Church will be gathered---completely unscathed---whereupon the "DAY" will begin.  Said another way, with one tick of the clock after the Church is gathered, the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will have begun.  Moreover, I see the 7th Seal being opened just a little bit after this---on the same day.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Once again, please explain how you can equate total eclipses of the sun and moon with total darkness where the sun, moon and stars are invisible? It is impossible.

Do you think it is possible that your concepts are mistaken?  Why are you stuck on an eclipse or eclipses being responsible for what John is seeing?

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Quote

These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal

Sorry, but the only thing that FITS with the 6th seal is what is written at the 6th seal, plus the Joel 2 prophecy OF the 6th seal event, plus Peter's quote of the Joel prophecy. 

Where you are missing it:

The 6th seal comes on John's timeline BEFORE ANY PART of the 70th week.

Hmmm.  So, where you say I am "missing it" is what you state in your last sentence?  That's interesting.  What you state in your last sentence is my position as well.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Here is my outline of Revelation: Can you agree with it?

Chapter 1: Introduction.

Chapters 2 and 3: Messages to churches.

Chapters 4 and 5: show us the context and timing of the first seals: 32 AD.
 •Jesus not seen at the right hand of the father—still on earth.
 •Jesus was not found worthy to take the book in the first search—before Jesus prevailed over death.
 •The Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4—before Jesus ascended to send Him down.
 •Time passes and then Jesus prevailed over death.
 •Jesus then found worthy to take the book.
•Jesus ascends back into the throne room.
•Jesus sends Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD.
•Jesus takes the book: Circa 32 AD.

Chapter 6: starts at the same time: 32 AD, when Jesus got the book into His hands: it is the start of the church age.

I agree with what you say concerning Chapter 1:

I agree with what you say concerning Chapters 2 and 3:

Well, I thought we might be on a roll, but with Chapters 4 and 5 and Chapter 6 you got stuck on the "32 AD",  which is in glaring conflict with the "hereafter" of Revelation 4:1.

What you say about Jesus being "not found worthy to take the book in the first search" is upsetting.  He was very much worthy before the foundation of the world!  Moreover, John's position of Jesus would have been that He was very much worthy!  We have already been through this and you just need to back up.  John's invite and what he observed was in real time.  It would have been ludicrous for him to have "wept much" (Rev. 5:4) if in his mind Jesus was also in the number of those being found not worthy.  Are you thinking that he was seeing Jesus as also not worthy?  At the time John was given his invite (Rev. 4:1), he had done written his account of the Gospel and I, II, and III John.  Do you think he got amnesia while in the throne room?  So, why did he weep?  I would suggest that it was because no one who had Adam for a father was found worthy---not Seth, not Noah, not Abraham, Job, or Daniel, not even he himself was "found worthy".  I can imagine that if we were in the presence of God and His glory and the glory of all there is to behold in Heaven that we would have a good cry ourselves over our corrupted fallen condition.  I'm not even in the proximity of buying into your take on why he was crying.  Just because he wasn't seeing "the Lamb" yet did not mean the Lamb wasn't there!  At this event that John was given an invite to, when it was time for the Lamb to make His entrance, He made His entrance!  Be it known, He was there all the while---and every one and all the hosts of Heaven knew it.  I can almost imagine them anticipating what John's reaction would be when he saw the Lamb.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 6: ...
•Seal 5: The church-age martyrs. They are told judgment won’t start until the full number of martyrs has been killed. The pre-trib rapture will end the church age and trigger the start of the Day of the Lord.

What you say in your last sentence, "and trigger the start of the Day of the Lord" is a good way of saying it.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 6: ...
•Seal 6 then starts the Day of the Lord when Judgment begins.

I'm kinda surprised, kinda not, that this is all you say concerning the 6th Seal.  I'm not sure I've ever heard you state your position on verses 15-16.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 8: Seventh Seal, the start of the 70^th week, and the start of the hurt on earth. Hurt comes with Wrath. The trumpets start with Wrath. Four trumpets sound in chapter 8.

Your position concerning the "start of the 70^th week" makes me wonder if you believe in the imminency of Christ's coming for the Church.  I mean, if Jesus comes for the Church tonight, are you believing that the beast is going to "confirm the covenant" (Dan. 9:27) tomorrow?

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 11: The man of sin moves to Jerusalem with Gentile armies who will trample the Holy City—just days before He will enter the temple. The city will be trampled—probably by his Gentle armies—for the next 42 months.

• The two witnesses suddenly appear on earth, just 3½ days before the man of sin will enter the temple, and cause the week to be divided. They will testify for the next 1260 days

It looks like you are saying that after the "three days and an half" (Rev. 11:9) the two witnesses will "testify for the next 1260 days."

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 12: ...

Chapter 13: ...

Chapter 14: ...

Chapter 15: ...

Chapter 16: ...

Chapters 17 and 18: ...

Chapter 19: ...

Chapter 20: ...

Of the rest, while I do agree with you on several things, my understandings continue to resonate with my spirit much better than your understandings resonate with my spirit.  But, I will try to remain mindful of what you put forth.

[not an echo]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 1/10/2023 at 5:42 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your next to last reference (Matt. 24:29), if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that the "tribulation" Jesus is here speaking of is "God's Wrath "?   Tying this together with what you then say of verse 30 ("And then "), are you saying that after God's wrath, it will be "(1260 days later) " before the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" is seen?  Seems to me that by this, you have the event of the 6th Seal encompassing 1260 days.  Is this what you are saying?

Your position is raising a lot of other questions in my mind as well, but we are already veering way off from the topic of this thread.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around all that you are putting forth.

Yes, the Wrath of God brings forth Jacob's troubles. So, God's Wrath will cause the sun and moon to dim by 1/3, that is troubles, but the Anti-Christ is restrained until God's Wrath falls also, so his troubles parallel exactly with God's Wrath. Both last for exactly 1260 days. So, all of these troubles start with God's Wrath, but it is not merely God's Wrath, it includes the Anti-Christ 42 month rule also. 

Hello Revelation Man,

I'm still not sure if I am understanding you.  If you are counting the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 24:29 as "God's Wrath",  then God's wrath is over.  Next is the "And then " of which you say there will be the "1260 days later" till the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Is this what you are saying?

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Greatest Ever Troubles last 42 months, its not one day, it is ONE DAY in which it starts on. The Prophets thus points to the Day of the Lord as ONE DAY on which God's Wrath begins !!

We may express it a little differently, but if I am understanding you correctly, we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord, or "the great day of His wrath" is not just one day, but a period of time.  Kinda like the difference between Monday (a singular day/strict sense) and the day of the computer (era, period, or age/broad sense).

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, Revelation Man said:

The 6th Seal is throwing you off (as it does most tbh). The Seals are not Judgments, they are Jesus opening the Judgment Scrolls that are sealed up, no Wrath can fall until all 7 Seals are opened. If a king sent a message with three seals on it 2000 years ago no one could see that message until all three seals had been broken.

I certainly agree with you that the "Seals are not Judgments".  Concerning the rest, consider this:  We are in agreement that what is in the scroll cannot be seen until all the seals are removed.  Because of what John sees with the opening of each one, these seals on the outside of the scroll can easily represent those things leading up to what is contained therein.  Moreover, the first five parallel what Jesus told the pillars of His Church in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-12)---things that have characterized the era of the Church since its founding and even unto our day.

Because I see the 6th and 7th seals being removed on the same day, this means that the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will begin the day (strict sense) that the scroll is unsealed.  The catching up, gathering, or rapture of the Church will just precede this---just after the Lamb opens the 6th Seal---all of which interlocks with the prophetic puzzle pieces of Matthew 24:29-51, Acts 2:20, I Corinthians 15:51-52, I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3, II Thessalonians 2:1, and II Peter 3:7-14---not to mention John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, Revelation Man said:

The number 7 = Divine Completion. Thus God is saying these 7 Seals have my Judgments sealed up completely until I reveal these things (Revelation). Jesus is in heaven amidst the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Rev. 4 & 5 and he starts opening the seals on the scroll that has the Judgments therein. As he opens each seal he prophesies what is about to befall mankind [when the Seven Trumps sound]. Seals 1-5 is a prophetic look at the coming Beast, Seal 6 is a prophetic look ahead to God's Wrath (Rev. 8). Rev. 7 is the Jews who repent fleeing Judea, God thus says HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) until they have been sealed (Repent or Atone). So, this is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev.8 !! This is why there is silence in Heaven just before God's Wrath falls on mankind. 

While I do not see it this way, I will remain mindful of what you are saying.

On 1/10/2023 at 6:30 PM, Revelation Man said:

Think of it like thus, you have a bunch of friends over to see all of your birthday presents, but thy are in a closet locked up with 7 locks. As you open each lock you tell them about different gifts, a Harmonica, a Necklace, a Leather bible etc. etc. But until that 7th lock is off, not one of your friends will see anything in  that closet until the 7th lock has been loosed.

If you tell your friends you are getting "a Harmonica, a Necklace, [and] a Leather bible" then quite naturally they will be expecting to see "a Harmonica, a Necklace, [and] a Leather bible" when the closet door opens.  Keeping with your illustration, I'm not sure how you get "a white horse" rider with "a bow" and "a crown" going forth "conquering, and to conquer" (Rev. 6:2) out of "hail and fire mingled with blood" being "cast upon the earth" causing "the third part of trees" and "all green grass" to be "burnt up" (Rev. 8:7).  Or, a "horse that was red" with a rider enabled "to take peace from the earth" and wielding "a great sword" (Rev. 6:4) out of "a great mountain burning with fire" being "cast into the sea" causing "the third  part of the sea" to become "blood" (Rev. 8:8).  Or...

See what I mean?