Daniel 3:25

[ruah brit]

come on now---

the KJV--messed up BAD----

Neb---didnt know God had a son--for crying out loud the Jews didnt even know that.

The Lord told Moses about the sons of God and Moses wrote it down. So the Jews knew about the sons of God. The Lord told Job about the sons of God. They all knew about the sons of God. So who messed up? Neb knew about God especially when he came to his senses after running with the wild animals for seven years. That happened for forgetting God.

Ge 6

2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

Ge 6

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Job 1

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Job 38

7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

18 "This dream I, King Nebuchadnezzar, have seen. Now you, Belteshazzar, declare its interpretation, since all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known to me the interpretation; but you are able, for the Spirit of the Holy God is in you."

Denise

[doulon]

come on now---

the KJV--messed up BAD----

it is definitely "son of the gods"---not God.

Hi Mark! I hope to address a few of your comments. I'll start with the one above. I've learned by discussing this issue over the years that it is very easy for individuals to level criticisms against the AV. In fact, it almost seems to be the 'in' thing to do these days; i.e. to accuse the AV of 'messing' up. Something else I've learned is that it is an entirely different issue all together to PROVE that the AV has "messed up BAD". I've seen lots of accusations against our Authorized Version but I've never seen one error proved with concrete evidence. Your claim, likewise, falls into this category. You claim that our AV "messed up BAD" but you fall way short of proving your point. To cry error is one thing----to actually prove it is another.

The AV has certainly not "messed up BAD" and I'll be glad to prove it.

Neb---didnt know God had a son--for crying out loud the Jews didnt even know that.

Neb erected a statue to HIS god----

why would he all of a sudden say "Son of God"---as in implying he knew who Jesus was,

when EVEN MOSES OR ELIJAH WERENT ALLOWED TO SEE HIS FACE IN THE CLEFT?

I have found that it is very common among supporter of the modern versions (mvs), when confronted with the absurd reading of Dan. 3:25, to say that Nebuchadnezzar had no concept of God and that he was a pagan idol worshipper. Thus, they conclude that he could not have said, "the Son of God" in order to ease their conscience of the blasphemous reading found in the MVs. But where is the EVIDENCE for their theory? I shall set forth the evidence for the fact that Nebuchadnezzar did in fact have a good concept of God and even knew of the Son of God (Messiah) then you are invited to refute it with the evidence that supports your statement. I shall endeavor to be as brief as I can.

1) As you know Nebuchadnezzar ordered that they should bring "certain of the children of Israel" that they might teach them the "learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans". Of course among this group of young men were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. Unto whom they quickly changed their names to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Why would they change their names? As you may know names were very important in Biblical days and carried great meaning, much unlike today. So a quick study of their names may be to our advantage here. The name Daniel means "God is Judge", Hananiah means "Gift of the Lord", Mishael means "Who is what God is", and Azariah means "Whom Jehovah helps". Some rather powerful statements made by their names don't you think? Now we can see why they wanted to change their names. So again we see that just by their very names Nebuchadnezzar would have had a good "concept" of God, so much so that he changed their names. But we're not finished yet!

2) In chapter 2 we find that Nebuchadnezzar has dreamed a dream and there is none to tell him his dream and the interpretation of it. However, just before he kills all the wise men "was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision" (Dan. 2:19). Daniel is then brought in before the king to make known his dream. Daniel starts by saying that none of the wise men could make known the kings dream, GET THIS NOW, "But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days." (Dan. 2:28) As mentioned before Daniel is always quick to give God all the credit. This I am sure they did on many other matters that the king inquired of them. Daniel continues in verse 37, "Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory." Here Daniel makes it clear that it is the "God of heaven" that has given Nebuchadnezzar his kingdom not one of his false gods. Again, giving Nebuchadnezzar a definite "concept" of who God is. And if this isn't enough there's more.

3) This is the part I find really interesting. Remember the image was "broken to pieces" by a stone "cut out without hands". So what exactly is this "stone". Daniel makes it clear to Nebuchadnezzar what, or who, this stone was. Daniel states, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:...and it shall stand for ever." (Dan. 2:44) He continues, "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter" (Dan. 2:45). WOW! Imagine that, Nebuchadnezzar was given a clear picture of the Messiah (the Son of God) and His Kingdom. So it is becoming more evident that Nebuchadnezzar in fact had a good concept of God and even knew about Messiah's Kingdom. To further illustrate this point we shall refer to Nebuchadnezzar's own words. He says, "Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret." (Dan. 2:47)

In light of all these facts it is highly probable, yea certain, that when Nebuchadnezzar saw a fourth Man in the furnace he indeed recognized Him as "the Son of God" and not "a son of the gods" as the MVs so falsely read (which I remind you is exactly the way the NWT reads). Especially since Daniel and his 3 friends had bore such a good witness to him.

Now, let's take it a step further. Perhaps a look at what Nebuchadnezzar had to say after the 3 men came out of the fire may help us. If we look at verse 26 we see Nebuchadnezzar say, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego ye servants of the MOST HIGH GOD". This he said of his own accord without the assistance from anyone. He goes on to say, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego" (V.28) Here again without any testimony from the 3 men he recognizes that it is GOD that has saved the men alive. Now here is what I really want you to see. He further states, "who hath sent HIS ANGEL, and delivered his servants that trusted in him". (V.28)(caps mine) This is very revealing as to who Nebuchadnezzar thought the fourth Man in the fire was. After all don't you think if he actually said "a son of the gods", as the modern versions read, that he would have said something like "one of the gods has sent his son...". But we know that he didn't, he plainly says that GOD HATH SENT HIS ANGEL. Again, no one has told him what has happened. He came to these conclusions on his own. So, I would submit, that if he recognized the Man as an Angel of God he would have said "the Son of God". In light of all this it is much more highly likely that he would have said "the Son of God" than he would have "a son of the gods".

someone brought up ECF WRITINGS---

THANK YOU , THANK YOU, THANK YOU....

the original is "son of the gods"...

I'm the one that posted the quotes from the ECWs. However, you might wish to hold your 'thank-you's' as those quotes severely hurt your position. You see, these men wrote long before there were any English translations or any translations for that matter. These men were reading from the Hebrew and commenting on what they read. In the Hebrew they read "the Son of God". Which brings me to a point raised by another poster here. Someone mentioned that the Hebrew reads "a son of the gods" but this individual doesn't know what they are talking about. The Hebrew in Dan. 3:25 reads "lbar-Elaheen". It is certainly meant to be rendered as "Son of God." In the first place, the "lbar" is a masculine SINGULAR absolute, and "Elaheen" is a dual form, which is almost always translated as a SINGULAR throughout the Bible. If that's not convincing enough for you, the so-called Septuagint (LXX) also translated it as the AV, i.e., "uiw Theou" - SINGULAR - "Son of God." Being the expert scholars that they were the KJ translators knew this and rightly translated "lbar-Elaheen" as "Son of God".

As I said, the ECWs were merely reading from the Hebrew and accurately translated it as "Son of God".

I have much more information on this great verse but this will suffice for now.

doulon

[apothanein kerdos]

I've always seen this as just an angel.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Angel = messenger. Angel does not always mean a spiritual being from Heaven.....it can also mean a messenger.

[Remnantrob]

I've always seen this as just an angel.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Angel = messenger. Angel does not always mean a spiritual being from Heaven.....it can also mean a messenger.

AMEN

funny thing, I said that exact same thing back in july but it didn't makes sense to anyone that it made sense to me in that sense...does this make sense to you? (and for that reason my thread was annihilated ...oh well)

Anywho, keep up the good work.

[apothanein kerdos]

I've always seen this as just an angel.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Angel = messenger. Angel does not always mean a spiritual being from Heaven.....it can also mean a messenger.

Do you know of any other beings in heave besides the Godhead and angels? Messengers were angels.

lol, mate, is John the Baptist an angel? Matthew 11:10 refers to him as a messenger, and in the Greek this means "angel." All Angel means is messenger....it's a self-imposed name that we gave them when translating from the Greek. Likewise, 1 Samuel 23:27 has a messenger going to Saul. THe Hebrew word means messenger, but also translates into Angel. In other words, in Daniel where we see "angel", all the king is notifying is that God sent a messenger to protect them.

[MK202002]

I got showed this just a month ago, actually. Threw my idea of God threw a loop, but apperently I needed it.

[MK202002]

i started an thread earlier that kind of got off topic, but was kind of realted to this. I pointed out that in Judges Sampson's parents had a visit like this, and they said "we have seen God" (Judges 13)

-And when Hagar ran away, she was comforted by God: Genisis 16:13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [c] the One who sees me." Don't let people twist this one: she saw Him!

-And Jacob was impressed that his life was spared after the famous wrestling visit:

Gensis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."

But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

I know what his name was! Jesus!