Where are Believers when the Body Dies - immediately and ultimately?

[farouk]

14 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is a passages that for sure I do not like it at all.

Paul never repeated that and none of the other disciples have said anything like that,  and not even Jesus.   

He never came back to elaborate on it...

Do read Ephesians 1, where Paul speaks of the glorious Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the chapter.

[Your closest friendnt]

10 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Do you not have 1 Corinthians 15:44 in your Bible?  I’ll post it for you again.  What does this verse mean to you?

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

- 1 Corinthians 15:44 (NKJV)

 

It does not make sense...it not possible to visualize all  the relevant chain lings and be able to describe it without filling in the blanks ourselves. 

[Your closest friendnt]

@Selah7

Very sad about the news of Omega man...why I feel so sad? Am I ataching my self to other members...

That reminds me what Jesus said: That in me you will have many sisters and brothers...

That may sounds wonderful but at the same time it includes that we will shed tears for many brothers and sisters.

God bless  and be of good courage...I feel more sad than I should..I have to hide from my family, I do not want them to see me like that. 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

And that would be?

The Genesis 6 Conspiracy: How Secret Societies and the Descendents of Giants plan to Enslave Humankind by Gary Wayne

It's 1133 pages so quite a read. It begins like sympathy for gnostics, but it really isn't. It is just informing on those beliefs in the beginning of the book. The man is a believer. Lot's of cf to historical writings and some ideas on what they all mean. Really a small library on the subject of Genesis, giants, the nephilim historically and how this is shaping our present time.

If you've read the book already I would love to know your opinion on it. While to some it might initially seem like a 'kook' book, it is very well researched and woth the read, even if you don't agree with all of it.

[Marilyn C]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:13 AM, Vine Abider said:

Thanks Marilyn!  Can you provide verses for the first two paragraphs?  Also, where does the Bema Seat of Christ come in?

Lastly, the New Jerusalem has the 12 apostles as foundations . . . why wouldn't all of God's people be there? And the throne of God is there as per Rev 22:3.

Hi VA,

I missed your second question. Yes, the NJ has the 12 apostles as foundations. They were promised that position. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14) That was shown to Abraham as the `stars of the heavens,`  (universal heavens) So the 12 disciples and the OT saints will be there in the NJ. (Heb. 11: 16) And that is a prominent position in the universal heavens. 

Abraham was also told that his descendants would be as the `sand of the sea.`  Meaning, the predominant position on the new earth.

Then there is the highest ruling position in the third heaven on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Throne, means authority and power, and the Lord`s seat of rulership is far above all. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21) He does have a `throne` in the NJ, meaning that His rulership is also there as on the earth. However, the Lord`s seat of power and authority is in the highest. 

The Lord`s seat of rulership is not below the angels, or where Lucifer had his throne, or even where Satan rules from now. No, the Lord`s seat of authority, where He rules from over all realms in God`s great kingdom is in the highest, the third heaven with His Body. 

Yes, God desires for man to be on the new earth, but God has had greater plans than that - for man to be ruling in the universal realm and then in the third heaven. Thus, all realms have rulership under Christ. This is God`s great eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10,  3: 11)

Marilyn.

BTW if you would like more detail I have written a blog series on `God`s Eternal Purposes.`  You will find it in `Marilyn`s Messages,` page 11. 

[JohnD]

On 12/11/2022 at 4:10 PM, Vine Abider said:

Regenerated believers are told they will be with the Lord when they leave this mortal tent, so is this heaven or some other temporary place?

And ultimately we will be with Him in the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven to the earth, right?

Please provide specific verses.

Sheol {was} the temporary abode of all the dead until the cross of Christ. Described in Luke 16:19-31:

Ephesians 4:8-10 describes how Jesus went to Sheol in his death, proclaimed the victory to those imprisoned there (1 Peter 3:18-19) and then taking the captive in Abraham's Bosom to the highest heaven. In accord with Luke 23:43, this took place within the 3 hour period between Jesus' death on the cross and sunset (the end of day) for paradise is only found 3 times in all of scripture and all 3 times referring to where God's throne is.

Ever since then all who believe in the LORD Yeshua Jesus go directly to heaven in death:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The thief on the cross who believed in Jesus was the first believer to go directly to heaven in his death.

These same disembodied spirits of believing men and women will accompany Jesus when he returns to Earth to defend Israel from the Armageddon campaign:

Jude 14 (KJV)
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

One of my favorite Christian artists recorded this back 30 + years ago now... wow time passes so quickly.

 

 

[JohnD]

To date, Jesus is the only permanently resurrected human being. Some risings from the dead occurred when the veil was rend in two, but no mention of the permanency is made.

Revelation 20:4 speaks of the souls (disembodied spirits) of those killed for Christ in heaven...

Revelation 20:5–6 (KJV)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest of the dead are all else who die (other than Jesus) ← who is the Firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) 3 days after his crucifixion. This is the first resurrection! Hallelujah!

Glory to God in the highest! Then verse 6 describes what we now know is the Church Age (the time of the first resurrection). On such the second death has no power (1 Corinthians 15:55-57).

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The resurrection / reuniting with our bodies will take place at this time (not before). The dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive on earth at the time who believe will be changed...

1 Corinthians 15:51–55 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Revelation 20:11–15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ← remember Revelation 20:5-6 the second death has no power over the believers in Jesus
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22 (KJV)
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

Sheol {was} the temporary abode of all the dead until the cross of Christ. Described in Luke 16:19-31:

Ephesians 4:8-10 describes how Jesus went to Sheol in his death, proclaimed the victory to those imprisoned there (1 Peter 3:18-19) and then taking the captive in Abraham's Bosom to the highest heaven. In accord with Luke 23:43, this took place within the 3 hour period between Jesus' death on the cross and sunset (the end of day) for paradise is only found 3 times in all of scripture and all 3 times referring to where God's throne is.

Ever since then all who believe in the LORD Yeshua Jesus go directly to heaven in death:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The thief on the cross who believed in Jesus was the first believer to go directly to heaven in his death.

These same disembodied spirits of believing men and women will accompany Jesus when he returns to Earth to defend Israel from the Armageddon campaign:

Jude 14 (KJV)
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

One of my favorite Christian artists recorded this back 30 + years ago now... wow time passes so quickly.

 

 

Thanks for those things to consider . . . makes some sense.

[Vine Abider]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

I missed your second question. Yes, the NJ has the 12 apostles as foundations. They were promised that position. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14) That was shown to Abraham as the `stars of the heavens,`  (universal heavens) So the 12 disciples and the OT saints will be there in the NJ. (Heb. 11: 16) And that is a prominent position in the universal heavens. 

Abraham was also told that his descendants would be as the `sand of the sea.`  Meaning, the predominant position on the new earth.

Then there is the highest ruling position in the third heaven on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Throne, means authority and power, and the Lord`s seat of rulership is far above all. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21) He does have a `throne` in the NJ, meaning that His rulership is also there as on the earth. However, the Lord`s seat of power and authority is in the highest. 

The Lord`s seat of rulership is not below the angels, or where Lucifer had his throne, or even where Satan rules from now. No, the Lord`s seat of authority, where He rules from over all realms in God`s great kingdom is in the highest, the third heaven with His Body. 

Yes, God desires for man to be on the new earth, but God has had greater plans than that - for man to be ruling in the universal realm and then in the third heaven. Thus, all realms have rulership under Christ. This is God`s great eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10,  3: 11)

Marilyn.

BTW if you would like more detail I have written a blog series on `God`s Eternal Purposes.`  You will find it in `Marilyn`s Messages,` page 11. 

Thanks!  I'm adding this to my "Marilyn file" to read soon.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks!  I'm adding this to my "Marilyn file" to read soon.

I do appreciate your careful interest, when you have time.