NotMyRealName Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 Every answer you get is an opinion even if they are vehement about it and include lots of bible verses, some not really applicable or out of context. Here is my opinion for what it's worth. My bible says over and over and over that the dead are sleeping (until the end time). I do not know where. I suppose the saved are somehow with Jesus, but it makes no sense to me that they are in heaven and the condemned in Hell, else what is the judgement day for? This, for whatever reason, is not what I perceive the popular opinion. Everyone wants to believe their loved one went directly to heaven. Some people try to explain the dead are sleeping passages as they pertain only to the body which is resurrected. The flesh rots away, so I don't understand their argument. Perhaps God is to take the atoms and molecules and create a new body. Also, the term "spiritual body" is perhaps the greatest example of an oxymoron I can imagine - a bit like saying night-day, yes-no, positive-negative. A body is by definition tangible while "spiritual" is by definition non-tangible. And yes, I know the term "spiritual body" is in some bibles. Generally I beware those who seem to have all the answers. There are many, many religious things I don't know or understand. If St. Paul said now we see through a glass darkly, and he was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh, then who am I to proclaim that I have all the answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,656 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 8 hours ago, Bluedragon said: Need to read further .....The difference between the ressurected body verus the soul is exactly what is missing from this endless diatribe ....Jesus freed the captives in Abraham's Bossum ......it is populated no more. Not one verse quoted pertains to the soul of the believer at death ....not one ..... "Endless diatribe?" Okay, I'll make it simple for you. When the body dies: the spirit departs and goes to be with the Lord if you are a Christian, or it goes to Sheol the soul which you are so bewildered / concerned about is the buffer between the two realities of flesh and spirit. It is that which ceases to exist when we die. the flesh ceases to function (appearing to sleep) and decays into the base elements Since you are overly concerned about the length of the entries here, I'll leave it at that for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedragon Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/20/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 Just now, JohnD said: "Endless diatribe?" Okay, I'll make it simple for you. When the body dies: the spirit departs and goes to be with the Lord if you are a Christian, or it goes to Sheol the soul which you are so bewildered / concerned about is the buffer between the two realities of flesh and spirit. It is that which ceases to exist when we die. the flesh ceases to function (appearing to sleep) and decays into the base elements Since you are overly concerned about the length of the entries here, I'll leave it at that for now. Don't need a book to make a point .....use refernce pooints instead of endless unread copy. The case is simple .....Sheol exists no more. The point has been made .....Jesus is the only way into heaven .....there is no longer a safe haven for those who don't believe in Jesus. The existence of Sheol was because man had no knowledge of Jesus, because he hadn't existed or been resurrected. The soul separates at death and the new body will be combined with the soul after the creation of the new earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedragon Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/20/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, NotMyRealName said: Every answer you get is an opinion even if they are vehement about it and include lots of bible verses, some not really applicable or out of context. Here is my opinion for what it's worth. My bible says over and over and over that the dead are sleeping (until the end time). I do not know where. I suppose the saved are somehow with Jesus, but it makes no sense to me that they are in heaven and the condemned in Hell, else what is the judgement day for? This, for whatever reason, is not what I perceive the popular opinion. Everyone wants to believe their loved one went directly to heaven. Some people try to explain the dead are sleeping passages as they pertain only to the body which is resurrected. The flesh rots away, so I don't understand their argument. Perhaps God is to take the atoms and molecules and create a new body. Also, the term "spiritual body" is perhaps the greatest example of an oxymoron I can imagine - a bit like saying night-day, yes-no, positive-negative. A body is by definition tangible while "spiritual" is by definition non-tangible. And yes, I know the term "spiritual body" is in some bibles. Generally I beware those who seem to have all the answers. There are many, many religious things I don't know or understand. If St. Paul said now we see through a glass darkly, and he was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh, then who am I to proclaim that I have all the answers? The body yes ..but...The soul never dies ...It goes to heaven. Read more carefully and realize that the debate is over a body versus the soul ......Disagree? Even the Disciples believed they were seeing a ghost as Jesus walked on water ......The spirit realm is very real ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.48 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Bluedragon said: Even the Disciples believed they were seeing a ghost as Jesus walked on water I would suggest food for thought. The disciples being Jews of their time, believed all kinds of things that were wrong...so that account cannot be reliably used to make a point. Where in scripture is there a person without a body? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedragon Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/20/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 Just now, Alive said: I would suggest food for thought. The disciples being Jews of their time, believed all kinds of things that were wrong...so that account cannot be reliably used to make a point. Where in scripture is there a person without a body? The Bible says when Lazarus died, he was also buried. But notice what happened to him in verse 22: “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.” Notice what the angels did here: Lazarus was not alone in his death. At the moment of his death, God sent His angels to come and usher him into Heaven. The Bible teaches that if you are a Christian, one day God will send His angels to escort you into the presence of His Son. Odd when you read the scripture that a key element is missing in this parable. Anyone care to take a swing at it? I'll solve the riddle .....Only one person in the parable is mentioned by name. Lazarus's name is in the book of life. He goes to Sheol .....The rich man is not named, not in the book of life ...he gets separated and is on the other side of the gap ....Hades ....However, he / his soul has knowledge of existence ....If Jesus went to Sheol to free the captives .....they are referred to as prisoners. They are aware in Sheol ..those in Hades are aware...then every person that dies is aware of their death and is aware of their existence ....they are not dead spiritually. They are dead in body. Take it a step further .....As Jesus is dying on the cross, he tells the believing criminal "Today you will join me in paradise. Paradise was a nickname for Sheol. Why would that man accompany Christ to Sheol? The Bible does not mention what angels escorted Jesus to Sheol. but I'm willing to take a wild guess ..... Simple .....the gates of Sheol had to be open by Jesus for those souls to be accompanied to heaven. Sheol exists no more .....it is an empty room. So to answer the question ......Jesus solved the riddle ......he answered the question of what happens to a believer when he dies and his spirit is escorted to heaven, in this case originally to Sheol ....then all those freed escorted to heaven .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 20, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Bluedragon said: The Bible says when Lazarus died, he was also buried. But notice what happened to him in verse 22: “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.” Notice what the angels did here: Lazarus was not alone in his death. At the moment of his death, God sent His angels to come and usher him into Heaven. The Bible teaches that if you are a Christian, one day God will send His angels to escort you into the presence of His Son. Odd when you read the scripture that a key element is missing in this parable. Anyone care to take a swing at it? I'll solve the riddle .....Only one person in the parable is mentioned by name. Lazarus's name is in the book of life. He goes to Sheol .....The rich man is not named, not in the book of life ...he gets separated and is on the other side of the gap ....Hades ....However, he / his soul has knowledge of existence ....If Jesus went to Sheol to free the captives .....they are referred to as prisoners. They are aware in Sheol ..those in Hades are aware...then every person that dies is aware of their death and is aware of their existence ....they are not dead spiritually. They are dead in body. Take it a step further .....As Jesus is dying on the cross, he tells the believing criminal "Today you will join me in paradise. Paradise was a nickname for Sheol. Why would that man accompany Christ to Sheol? The Bible does not mention what angels escorted Jesus to Sheol. but I'm willing to take a wild guess ..... Simple .....the gates of Sheol had to be open by Jesus for those souls to be accompanied to heaven. Sheol exists no more .....it is an empty room. So to answer the question ......Jesus solved the riddle ......he answered the question of what happens to a believer when he dies and his spirit is escorted to heaven, in this case originally to Sheol ....then all those freed escorted to heaven .... Thank you for the narrative. God said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob... He is telling Moses a lot of things with a simple statement like that... Jesus said that he is telling that he is the God of the living and for that matter not the God of the dead... From this passage we know that there is a God for the dead....for the people who died.... Abraham, Issac and Jacob had already died but at death they were set apart from the dead of the rest of the world... I understand that they are different ways of saying the same thing as long as we do not wonder from the principle that the people of God at death they continue to be the children of the Lord God Almighty....and they were alive to him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedragon Posted December 21, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/20/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2022 15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Thank you for the narrative. God said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob... He is telling Moses a lot of things with a simple statement like that... Jesus said that he is telling that he is the God of the living and for that matter not the God of the dead... From this passage we know that there is a God for the dead....for the people who died.... Abraham, Issac and Jacob had already died but at death they were set apart from the dead of the rest of the world... I understand that they are different ways of saying the same thing as long as we do not wonder from the principle that the people of God at death they continue to be the children of the Lord God Almighty....and they were alive to him... The debate is driven by the statement that the body is asleep. Correct, the body is asleep .... There is not one reliable bit of evidence about the soul, other than this in Luke and one of the Psalms ....I'll take the word of Jesus and his use of this parable to define exactly what happens at death. He specifically says the soul is escorted by Angels ....Bodies didnt' go to Sheol .....souls went to Sheol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 22, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bluedragon said: The debate is driven by the statement that the body is asleep. Correct, the body is asleep .... There is not one reliable bit of evidence about the soul, other than this in Luke and one of the Psalms ....I'll take the word of Jesus and his use of this parable to define exactly what happens at death. He specifically says the soul is escorted by Angels ....Bodies didnt' go to Sheol .....souls went to Sheol. God said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob... Those people had died long time ago...but God said to Moses that he is still their God that he never stopped being their God... There is nothing left of their body...and their bodies were buried some place...what God said to Moses had nothing to do with their bodies because those people had died long time ago... They must know that God is still their God after the had died. And they must know that they are together. When Issac died he must know that he went to where Abraham was and when Jacob died he also must have been conscious to know that he was in the same place with Abraham and with his Father Issac...they must be waiting for him because this is what God had told to Abraham by oath. That he will know that his promise to him will come to pass. To Issac God said that he will be gathered to his ancestors and the same thing he said to Jacob and to many others and to David... All of them they must be conscious to know that the word of the Lord was truth and that at the time of their death were not gathered to him but they were to their Father Abraham... God informed them that they will not be gathered to him because they were his people and he was their God...but he also told them that Abraham was not gathered to him....and they will know that and they will expect their children to also gathered to them..together with Abraham their Patriarch.... They were set apart on earth from the rest of the world and they also were set apart from the rest of the world at death... They had nothing to do with their bodies and no promise was given to them about their bodies...still the only promise they had was from dust to dust so they knew that they will continue to live without their bodies from the time of their death and forwards. If someone says something not align with that he must have his reasons and he must also hope for something and that he believes that he cannot have it unless he can have his .body of flesh back unless he is in the same way he was before he died...in his physical body... Their hope is only for the earthly and have nothing to do with the Heavenly....because nothing earthly can inherit the Heaven of the Heavenly Father... Only through Jesus Christ who had both the Heavenly and the earthly... We can only be welcomed by God because of Jesus Christ... Who can be with God because he was with God before he was born like us...so we can be with Jesus because he was like us. He died for mankind only....his died for all humanity....the atonement in his blood was not made in the Temple but outside the Temple.... Jesus shed his blood outside the Temple...and only blood shed in the Temple can be use to make Atonement. Their bodies were left on earth and their Soul was taken to Abraham who he also was in his Soul because he experienced the physical death and they were so many witnesses that they showed his body buried...and they know what happens to the buried body.... Next time I will be brief...I repeat the same things but not for you but for others. Edited December 22, 2022 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedragon Posted December 23, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/20/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2022 9 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: God said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob... Those people had died long time ago...but God said to Moses that he is still their God that he never stopped being their God... There is nothing left of their body...and their bodies were buried some place...what God said to Moses had nothing to do with their bodies because those people had died long time ago... They must know that God is still their God after the had died. And they must know that they are together. When Issac died he must know that he went to where Abraham was and when Jacob died he also must have been conscious to know that he was in the same place with Abraham and with his Father Issac...they must be waiting for him because this is what God had told to Abraham by oath. That he will know that his promise to him will come to pass. To Issac God said that he will be gathered to his ancestors and the same thing he said to Jacob and to many others and to David... All of them they must be conscious to know that the word of the Lord was truth and that at the time of their death were not gathered to him but they were to their Father Abraham... God informed them that they will not be gathered to him because they were his people and he was their God...but he also told them that Abraham was not gathered to him....and they will know that and they will expect their children to also gathered to them..together with Abraham their Patriarch.... They were set apart on earth from the rest of the world and they also were set apart from the rest of the world at death... They had nothing to do with their bodies and no promise was given to them about their bodies...still the only promise they had was from dust to dust so they knew that they will continue to live without their bodies from the time of their death and forwards. If someone says something not align with that he must have his reasons and he must also hope for something and that he believes that he cannot have it unless he can have his .body of flesh back unless he is in the same way he was before he died...in his physical body... Their hope is only for the earthly and have nothing to do with the Heavenly....because nothing earthly can inherit the Heaven of the Heavenly Father... Only through Jesus Christ who had both the Heavenly and the earthly... We can only be welcomed by God because of Jesus Christ... Who can be with God because he was with God before he was born like us...so we can be with Jesus because he was like us. He died for mankind only....his died for all humanity....the atonement in his blood was not made in the Temple but outside the Temple.... Jesus shed his blood outside the Temple...and only blood shed in the Temple can be use to make Atonement. Their bodies were left on earth and their Soul was taken to Abraham who he also was in his Soul because he experienced the physical death and they were so many witnesses that they showed his body buried...and they know what happens to the buried body.... Next time I will be brief...I repeat the same things but not for you but for others. We agree....however, the debate is driven by those who misread the Bible and defend the concept that soul and body sleeps until the second coming .....That's not what is said .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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