Pre-Adamic World: Fact or Fiction

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

In almost every one of your cells (sperm cells are an exception), there are countless mitochondria which reproduce on their own, with bacterial DNA.    They are endosymbionts which evolved to become obligate partners in eukaryotic cells.   They are of a separate ancestry.

 

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Has anyone, HERE even, considered that God DESIGNED this "endosymbiosis?" There's not "ancestry" here! IT was DESIGNED that way FROM THE START!!! We're just now "smart" enough to understand that it's been going on since the CREATION!

[The Barbarian]

58 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Has anyone, HERE even, considered that God DESIGNED this "endosymbiosis?" There's not "ancestry" here! IT was DESIGNED that way FROM THE START!!! We're just now "smart" enough to understand that it's been going on since the CREATION!

In the sense that God created the universe in such a way that endosymbiosis could evolve.    Even random mutation is within His power:

God wills whatever is required for a thing that He wills, as has been said.[ See above, ch. 83.] But it befits certain things, according to the mode of their nature, that they be contingent and not necessary. Therefore, God wills that some things be contingent. Now, the efficacy of the divine will requires not only that something be that God wills to be, but also that it be as He wills it to be. For, among natural agents as well, when the acting power is strong it assimilates its effect to itself not only as to species but also as to the accidents, which are certain modes of that thing. Therefore, the efficacy of the divine will does not remove contingency.

St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles

Endosymbiosis would be design in the sense that IDer and Discovery Institute Fellow Michael Denton sees design:

It is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science—that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called “special creationist school.” According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God’s direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world– that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny

Edited January 8, 2023 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

There's not "ancestry" here!

Demonstrably, it is.   The DNA of our mitochondrial endosymbionts is circular bacterial DNA, not linear eukaryotic DNA.   The same endosymbiosis is seen in the chloroplasts of plants.  

Such endosymbiosis has actually been observed to evolve in a species of amoeba and a specific bacterium, both of which are now obligate endosymbionts, and cannot survive without each other.  I could probably find the cite for you, if you like.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by The Barbarian

[BeyondET]

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

In almost every one of your cells (sperm cells are an exception), there are countless mitochondria which reproduce on their own, with bacterial DNA.    They are endosymbionts which evolved to become obligate partners in eukaryotic cells.   They are of a separate ancestry.

 

Indeed there is alot of life in/on the human body that doesn't necessarily have to do with the living person per say. We are walking ecosystems.

Edited January 8, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

3 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Indeed there is alot of life in/on the human body that doesn't necessarily have to do with the living person per say. We are walking ecosystems.

Yep.  Not just gut flora of bacteria (which BTW are probably essential to good health for us) but also our skin bacteria, and tiny little mites that live in the follicles of our eyelashes.  

[David1701]

16 hours ago, BeyondET said:

We are ecosystems half alien already, life is complicated.

I'm unsure what you mean.  Would you clarify, please?

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

I'm unsure what you mean.  Would you clarify, please?

Alien in respect to life that is foreign to the body, though still of the earth. Us humans host around 10,000 species, mini earths.

Edited January 8, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yep.  Not just gut flora of bacteria (which BTW are probably essential to good health for us) but also our skin bacteria, and tiny little mites that live in the follicles of our eyelashes.  

The similarities of earth and the human body's function is quite long, man is from the dirt. Produce coral rocks in the ears, shed skin to dust, 60% water, circulation system like streams and rivers lead to an ocean. Give rise to life and host them as well, just to name a few.

Edited January 9, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

13 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

The similarities of earth and the human body's function is quite long. Man is from the dirt. Produce rocks in the ears, shed skin dirt, 60% water, circulation system like rivers and stream to the ocean heart. give rise to life and host them as well.

There's a remarkably simple explanation for this.    All natural structures are formed as to facilitate flow.    Of fluid, energy, forces, etc.  

Phys Life Rev 2011 Oct;8(3):209-40.

The constructal law and the evolution of design in nature

Adrian Bejan  ¹ , Sylvie Lorente

Abstract

The constructal law accounts for the universal phenomenon of generation and evolution of design (configuration, shape, structure, pattern, rhythm). This phenomenon is observed across the board, in animate, inanimate and human systems. The constructal law states the time direction of the evolutionary design phenomenon. It defines the concept of design evolution in physics. Along with the first and second law, the constructal law elevates thermodynamics to a science of systems with configuration. In this article we review the more recent work of our group, with emphasis on the advances made with the constructal law in the natural sciences. Highlighted are the oneness of animate and inanimate designs, the origin of finite-size organs on animals and vehicles, the flow of stresses as the generator of design in solid structures (skeletons, vegetation), the universality and rigidity of hierarchy in all flow systems, and the global design of human flows. Noteworthy is the tapestry of distributed energy systems, which balances nodes of production with networks of distribution on the landscape, and serves as key to energy sustainability and empowerment. At the global level, the constructal law accounts for the geography and design of human movement, wealth and communications.

It's a fairly readable explanation of the way that nature is organized to work.   It's remarkable that such a simple phenomenon is responsible for the way bones, rivers, trees, and lightning (among many others) form.    If you are interested in this, you should read Bejan's book.

God seems to have delighted in creating amazing complexity from very, very simple physical laws.

Edited January 8, 2023 by The Barbarian

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

There's a remarkably simple explanation for this.    All natural structures are formed as to facilitate flow.    Of fluid, energy, forces, etc.  

Phys Life Rev 2011 Oct;8(3):209-40.

The constructal law and the evolution of design in nature

Adrian Bejan  ¹ , Sylvie Lorente

Abstract

The constructal law accounts for the universal phenomenon of generation and evolution of design (configuration, shape, structure, pattern, rhythm). This phenomenon is observed across the board, in animate, inanimate and human systems. The constructal law states the time direction of the evolutionary design phenomenon. It defines the concept of design evolution in physics. Along with the first and second law, the constructal law elevates thermodynamics to a science of systems with configuration. In this article we review the more recent work of our group, with emphasis on the advances made with the constructal law in the natural sciences. Highlighted are the oneness of animate and inanimate designs, the origin of finite-size organs on animals and vehicles, the flow of stresses as the generator of design in solid structures (skeletons, vegetation), the universality and rigidity of hierarchy in all flow systems, and the global design of human flows. Noteworthy is the tapestry of distributed energy systems, which balances nodes of production with networks of distribution on the landscape, and serves as key to energy sustainability and empowerment. At the global level, the constructal law accounts for the geography and design of human movement, wealth and communications.

It's a fairly readable explanation of the way that nature is organized to work.   It's remarkable that such a simple phenomenon is responsible for the way bones, rivers, trees, and lightning (among many others) form.    If you are interested in this, you should read Bejan's book.

God seems to have delighted in creating amazing complexity from very, very simple physical laws.

Thanks I haven't heard of that before, I will definitely look in to the book.

Some time ago I saw a video on slime and how intelligent the stuff was.  Japan has a highly complex road system on the island, built to be efficient and they chose the best direct routes.

Scientists built a replica of the city's but not the roads.

The city's was food for the slime and it chose to build a replica path of the same highway network that humans built 

So yea simple physical laws is used by many life forms and don't have to be human to build a efficient network even with small intelligents.