The Beasts mark

[apothanein kerdos]

Revelation is written in Hebrew similies and metaphors. When it mentions that the mark will be found on the right hand and the forehead it is denoting two things. First, with the right hand, it is denoting that the actions are that of the beast. It can be literal, however that is not the point of the passage. THe point is to show that those who have sold out all of their actions to the beast will be the only ones that are able to purchase or make anything of themselves in the world. Likewise, the mark on the forehad shows that in order to survive one would have to think like the antichrist. They have to let Satan control all of there thoughts. In essence, these people become emotionaless robots who are controled by thought and action of the antichrist.

In my belief it is purely metaphorical, however I see no reason why the literal application of it and the metaphorical must be mutually exclusive.

[ruah brit]

Try to live and survive in the U.S. witout their Identification number or signing your name.

Denise

Oh, I don't know...I got indicted in Cort (twice!) without signing the fromal indcitment, even though the LAW requires it

I've wondered if agents for the beast don't get on Christian forums and try to derail Christians. Certainly would explain a lot.

Oh, I'm fairly CERTAIN they do

And you cash your checks. How? do you have a drivers license without a signature on it? I supose you don't have a social security number either. Every one who has a number that their nation has given them for their name and every one who uses their signature to swear a false oath. Has the mark of the beast and the number of his name. But then if you live three more years "You will see" .

Denise

[apothanein kerdos]

Try to live and survive in the U.S. witout their Identification number or signing your name.

Denise

Oh, I don't know...I got indicted in Cort (twice!) without signing the fromal indcitment, even though the LAW requires it

I've wondered if agents for the beast don't get on Christian forums and try to derail Christians. Certainly would explain a lot.

Oh, I'm fairly CERTAIN they do

And you cash your checks. How? do you have a drivers license without a signature on it? I supose you don't have a social security number either. Every one who has a number that their nation has given them for their name and every one who uses their signature to swear a false oath. Has the mark of the beast and the number of his name. But then if you live three more years "You will see" .

Denise

Oh phooey!

This is why I hate the literal interpretation of that portion of Revelation. How is a social security number, that does not have the "666" mark in it anyway (thus defeating the literal application), the mark of the beast? That an absolute absurd statement. For one, this takes the assumption that the government knowing who you are is a bad things. Ethically it might be, but biblically it holds little to no consequence. We know that the Romans attempted to keep tabs on people (especially Jews), including taking a census. Joseph and Mary took part in this census. My point is sometimes things happen before we are born or are able to make our own choices. In essence, almost 100% of the people in the United States that have a SSN recieved it at birth and not of their own will. So even if we follow the absolutely absurd claim that a SSN is somehow the mark, this would mean simply being born in the US would disqualify someone from salvation and make them an inherent follower of Satan.

This is why Christians need to learn to do intellectual study of the Bible, so we can avoid such silly claims.

[Salt]

Wherever you see the mark, you also see the worship of the beast....

No mention of 'and worship' here:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

"and them" here denotes separate people from "them that had received the mark of the beast":

Rev 19:20 KJV And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Perhaps they are 'them' that have "the name of the beast, or the number of his name" as not all have the 'mark' to buy and sell in this beasts system:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Flee from all ID implants (even for pets)--simply put, a person that recieves it is 'marked'.

Salt, look at the first word in verse 16..... it begins with the word "And" which means that it is following up part of the contextual thought for that whole paragraph. It is what happens when you pull one or two verses out of a chapter and make closely focused points with them.

This thought starts with verse one and the rest of the verses and sentences start with the word "And" which ties all of it up together. The worship part is in verse 15.......

011And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17and he providesthat no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, eitherthe name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

NASB

When you get to verse 18 it says that here is wisdom..... the number of the beast is that of a man and his number is 600 and 60 and 6. It is his number and not yours. a chip is nothing more than an electronic social security number, and can just as easily be removed as poping a boil when it is ripe. They are working on chips that are deep planted into organs that are not going to be removable, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would take one of those.

Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for the first implanting truck that come by and will be very unlikely that I would take any chip, but I just don't believe at this time we can say what it is, and to declare the chip as the mark is focusing too much on a technology that could confuse non believers when something else a bit more unglamorous comes along...... like a yellow happyface. {{{{ }}}}

Sorry, I'll just stay with the simple lesson the Holy Spirit bears witness to--stay away from all ID implants and encourage others likewise.

[apothanein kerdos]

Wherever you see the mark, you also see the worship of the beast....

No mention of 'and worship' here:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

"and them" here denotes separate people from "them that had received the mark of the beast":

Rev 19:20 KJV And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Perhaps they are 'them' that have "the name of the beast, or the number of his name" as not all have the 'mark' to buy and sell in this beasts system:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Flee from all ID implants (even for pets)--simply put, a person that recieves it is 'marked'.

Salt, look at the first word in verse 16..... it begins with the word "And" which means that it is following up part of the contextual thought for that whole paragraph. It is what happens when you pull one or two verses out of a chapter and make closely focused points with them.

This thought starts with verse one and the rest of the verses and sentences start with the word "And" which ties all of it up together. The worship part is in verse 15.......

011And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17and he providesthat no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, eitherthe name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

NASB

When you get to verse 18 it says that here is wisdom..... the number of the beast is that of a man and his number is 600 and 60 and 6. It is his number and not yours. a chip is nothing more than an electronic social security number, and can just as easily be removed as poping a boil when it is ripe. They are working on chips that are deep planted into organs that are not going to be removable, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would take one of those.

Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for the first implanting truck that come by and will be very unlikely that I would take any chip, but I just don't believe at this time we can say what it is, and to declare the chip as the mark is focusing too much on a technology that could confuse non believers when something else a bit more unglamorous comes along...... like a yellow happyface. {{{{ }}}}

Sorry, I'll just stay with the simple lesson the Holy Spirit bears witness to--stay away from all ID implants and encourage others likewise.

This is such a cop out in interpretation. "THe Holy Spirit tells me..."

Well I'm sorry, but if the Holy Spirit doesn't offer any logical reasons behind the interpretation, then your learning is not from the Holy Spirit. He teaches wisdom, and by doing so, incorporates the mind (logic) and soul (belief). The two must work together when interpreting scripture. If one says, "The HS told me so" and then offers no logical reasons behind the interpretation, then the HS was not involved. It is that simple.

[Salt]

Wherever you see the mark, you also see the worship of the beast....

No mention of 'and worship' here:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

"and them" here denotes separate people from "them that had received the mark of the beast":

Rev 19:20 KJV And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Perhaps they are 'them' that have "the name of the beast, or the number of his name" as not all have the 'mark' to buy and sell in this beasts system:

Rev 13:16-17 KJV And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Flee from all ID implants (even for pets)--simply put, a person that recieves it is 'marked'.

Salt, look at the first word in verse 16..... it begins with the word "And" which means that it is following up part of the contextual thought for that whole paragraph. It is what happens when you pull one or two verses out of a chapter and make closely focused points with them.

This thought starts with verse one and the rest of the verses and sentences start with the word "And" which ties all of it up together. The worship part is in verse 15.......

011And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15And there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17and he providesthat no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, eitherthe name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

NASB

When you get to verse 18 it says that here is wisdom..... the number of the beast is that of a man and his number is 600 and 60 and 6. It is his number and not yours. a chip is nothing more than an electronic social security number, and can just as easily be removed as poping a boil when it is ripe. They are working on chips that are deep planted into organs that are not going to be removable, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would take one of those.

Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for the first implanting truck that come by and will be very unlikely that I would take any chip, but I just don't believe at this time we can say what it is, and to declare the chip as the mark is focusing too much on a technology that could confuse non believers when something else a bit more unglamorous comes along...... like a yellow happyface. {{{{ }}}}

Sorry, I'll just stay with the simple lesson the Holy Spirit bears witness to--stay away from all ID implants and encourage others likewise.

This is such a cop out in interpretation. "THe Holy Spirit tells me..."

Well I'm sorry, but if the Holy Spirit doesn't offer any logical reasons behind the interpretation, then your learning is not from the Holy Spirit. He teaches wisdom, and by doing so, incorporates the mind (logic) and soul (belief). The two must work together when interpreting scripture. If one says, "The HS told me so" and then offers no logical reasons behind the interpretation, then the HS was not involved. It is that simple.

Each of you, find someone else to play your intellectually-based (or revisionist) mind game!

End of conversation.

Edited October 14, 2005 by Salt

[ruah brit]

Try to live and survive in the U.S. witout their Identification number or signing your name.

Denise

Oh, I don't know...I got indicted in Cort (twice!) without signing the fromal indcitment, even though the LAW requires it

I've wondered if agents for the beast don't get on Christian forums and try to derail Christians. Certainly would explain a lot.

Oh, I'm fairly CERTAIN they do

And you cash your checks. How? do you have a drivers license without a signature on it? I supose you don't have a social security number either. Every one who has a number that their nation has given them for their name and every one who uses their signature to swear a false oath. Has the mark of the beast and the number of his name. But then if you live three more years "You will see" .

Denise

Oh phooey!

This is why I hate the literal interpretation of that portion of Revelation. How is a social security number, that does not have the "666" mark in it anyway (thus defeating the literal application), the mark of the beast? That an absolute absurd statement. For one, this takes the assumption that the government knowing who you are is a bad things. Ethically it might be, but biblically it holds little to no consequence. We know that the Romans attempted to keep tabs on people (especially Jews), including taking a census. Joseph and Mary took part in this census. My point is sometimes things happen before we are born or are able to make our own choices. In essence, almost 100% of the people in the United States that have a SSN recieved it at birth and not of their own will. So even if we follow the absolutely absurd claim that a SSN is somehow the mark, this would mean simply being born in the US would disqualify someone from salvation and make them an inherent follower of Satan.

This is why Christians need to learn to do intellectual study of the Bible, so we can avoid such silly claims.

You can ""O" Phooey" all you want "but you will see". You will have to come out of that which you would not hear that you were in. But the scriptures told you that you were in it otherwise you couldn't come out of it. Confusion and ignorance is not an acceptable excuse when you are standing before the throne of Christ here at the end.

Re 18

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Denise

[apothanein kerdos]

Each of you, find someone else to play your intellectually-based (or revisionist) mind game!

You might as well forget being a Christian then. Christ calls for a transforming of our minds and to love Him with all of our minds, thus the intelligence of a Christian is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the spirituality of a Christian. In fact, the two are linked together.

You can ""O" Phooey" all you want "but you will see". You will have to come out of that which you would not hear that you were in. But the scriptures told you that you were in it otherwise you couldn't come out of it. Confusion and ignorance is not an acceptable excuse when you are standing before the throne of Christ here at the end.

The problem with this is that it ignores everything that was said that absolutely destroys this absurd paradigm.

[apothanein kerdos]

I beg to differ.

Intelligence has NOTHING---to do with Faith.

matter of fact, Faith is almost entirely dependent with no intelligence.

Intelligence, is needed in determining for ones self

faith is needed in determining which way God wants it to be---most of the time without "reasoning"---

Just ACTING.

when it comes to intelligence SHEEP ARE STUPID.

when it comes to faith---SHEEP LEAD THE WAY.

Yeah, that's completely wrong. Faith is intelligence...anything else and it's blind faith. The only way to truly know which way God is leading us is to constantly be studying His Word. The only way to constantly be studying His word, in depth, is to have some form of intelligence. Ignorance has no place in the kingdom of God. DOn't believe me? Read the Bible and find out for yourself. Love the Lord (have faith in Him) with what? All your heart, soul, and MIND.

[Mongo]

Look.

For the last time.

I do not have the beast's mark.

All I have is a shocking monkey that gives me a jolt with its shocker when I don't answer tech calls fast enough.