Daniel 9:24-27: When?

[Uriah]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Zech 13:8,9

Doesn't say ethnicity at all of any a/c.

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Daniel 12 isn't a description of the A of D. Daniel 9 is. Daniel 11 is.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days.

This is the only prophecy of Daniel to which Jesus spoke, because it is future. Dan. 11:31 was history in His day.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

If that's the case we better start thinking a whole lot of the OT is only for the Jews and no one else; like when Isaiah talks about a Messiah in chapter 9. 

Daniel 9 is only about Daniel's Jewish brethren because both he and Gabriel say so. You can't just generalize from one passage to a whole other book.

Edited March 1, 2023 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

But the prophecy, and vision, is simply not sealed up.

 

3 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

There will come a time when there is no need for any prophecy at all

Biblical prophecy as a whole, including OT prophecy, covers all time up to the new heavens and earth. If you think that is what  verse 24 means...then you have one really unique interpretation of when the 70 weeks will be fulfilled!!

Edited March 1, 2023 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days.

This is the only prophecy of Daniel to which Jesus spoke, because it is future. Dan. 11:31 was history in His day.

As I said before, you are correct about Dan 11:31 fulfilled in AE IV. 

However, Jesus was talking about a prophecy unfulfilled in Daniel. Jesus spoke to the description of the A of D; "‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel"

The Greek here in English[bold text] is like, 'speak of through', and the focus is information about, not yet to be fulfilled. 

If that's the case, and it is, we are well informed about what the A of D will look like, what type of person will commit it, and the consequences thereof if we look to Daniel's description of the A of D in Chapters 9,11, and 12.

 

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 9 is only about Daniel's Jewish brethren because both he and Gabriel say so. You can't just generalize from one passage to a whole other book.

I'm not. Lots in the NT that tells us Israel is the people of God and anyone who comes to Jesus is grafted in.

That's what the natural olive tree is, the Israel of God. His people.

Some of the natural branches were broken off and unnatural branches grafted in. 

We aren't the church, we are grafted in, adopted into an already existing family. 

This was true in the OT as well in the case of the sojourners.

Daniel's people aren't Israel the nation, they are Israel the Faithful.

In my mind I don't think God, the Author of Faith, is speaking to any other than people of faith, when the charge was given. 

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Daniel's people aren't Israel the nation, they are Israel the Faithful.

 Israel of the flesh has a physical city, and Israel of the Spirit has a heavenly city. Two covenants, not one. Dan. 9 addresses only the former.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

If that's the case, and it is, we are well informed about what the A of D will look like, what type of person will commit it, and the consequences thereof if we look to Daniel's description of the A of D in Chapters 9,11, and 12.

If you believe Dan. 9 describes the End Times, then you must believe that Jerusalem and a rebuilt Temple are going to be utterly destroyed, b/c that is what Dan. 9 says. But not a single other End Time prophecy.

Edited March 2, 2023 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 Israel of the flesh has a physical city, and Israel of the Spirit has a heavenly city. Two covenants, not one. Dan. 9 addresses only the former.

Maybe. But I think this;

"Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

appears to be addressing people of faith. Perhaps it's obvious it's people of faith who are not behaving faithfully being addressed here, maybe not.

I suppose I see this has to be of the Spirit as the flesh isn't going to proceed with action toward those goals. It seems the flesh landed them in the spot they're in and God had to give the people of faith a mandate of goals and a time limit.  

 

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If you believe Dan. 9 describes the End Times, then you must believe that Jerusalem and a rebuilt Temple are going to be utterly destroyed, b/c that is what Dan. 9 says. But not a single other End Time prophecy.

I didn't say that. What I do say is Jesus told us to look to the description of the A of D spoken of through the prophet Daniel. 

I cannot say all of this is end time. "Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him"

This, "Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. " happened in 70 AD when x Fretensis set fire to the Temple, and it and the city burned; slaughter occurred and the Temple was destroyed. So indeed, the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD.

And even if some dispute this is the meaning it would be the nearest fulfillment of this part since AE IV did not destroy the Temple. But verse 27? Hmmm...

There's a ton of other things here as well but I'm getting into that yet. 

I'm saying Jesus said to look to Daniel for the description of the A of D, not that Daniel's A of D from Ch.9 or 11 is yet to occur at the time of the end.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

27...And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j

I'm saying Jesus said to look to Daniel for the description of the A of D, not that Daniel's A of D from Ch.9 ...

The words "the abomination of desolation" do not exist in the Hebrew text of verse 27! You are using a false translation.

[Uriah]

46 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The words "the abomination of desolation" do not exist in the Hebrew text of verse 27! You are using a false translation.

The above is true, but it IS found here;

Mat 24:15- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,  spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

I don't think Jesus had a bad translation or any other kind of falsity.

Dan 9:27- And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Can you point to where/when the consummation took place? Antiochus? Titus? Severus? Or...

Rev 10:7- But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

The above is true, but it IS found here;

Mat 24:15- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,  spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

I don't think Jesus had a bad translation or any other kind of falsity.

You haven't been following the discussion. Jesus' quote about the AD is from 12:11, which is a prophecy about the End Times.

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Can you point to where/when the consummation took place? Antiochus? Titus? Severus? Or.

This is speaking about the total destruction of Jerusalem and Temple by the Romans in 70 AD. 9:26b-27 fits that event in every detail.

[Uriah]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

haven't been following the discussion.

Right, so where did Jesus get this quote in Daniel?