Soul Sleep

[Trinity]

I would be happy to enter into a discussion with you on each verse in Soapbox Debate.

Of the verses you mentioned NONE say the person in question went to heaven. They speak of being with the Lord. And when will that be?

Be glad too you set it up and ill join!

[Old Timer]

I would be happy to enter into a discussion with you on each verse in Soapbox Debate.

Of the verses you mentioned NONE say the person in question went to heaven. They speak of being with the Lord. And when will that be?

Be glad too you set it up and ill join!

Trinity, thank you. I sent a PM to George a few moments ago. If he agrees the debate is on in the Soapbox Debate. Perhaps we can agree to a format or terms but I am not particular. Almost any way you would like to proceed is acceptable to me.

[Old Timer]

Mark, I have to digest what you wrote. I'll get back to you.

[Remnant]

Mark,

perhaps this will help clear up Old Timer. First of all, souls are die. souls are people. souls are fishes, birds and animals. So at death, the soul dies. The soul consists of the breath of life and a body. so at death, the breath of life is removed. All that remains is the body. Yhe word "spirit" is mostly translated as wind or breathe. Never is it consience. The only time that occurs is when it refers to the Holy Spirit, for he is GOD!

We know he has a consicence. Anyways, If you read the story where Jesus raises Lazurus....you will understand that the righteous are awaiting the ressurection of life. Old Timer, Moses is the only other person who has died and was ressurected. At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah returned to earth in glorified bodies. The Transfiguration was a mini-second coming. Moses represented those who die and will be ressurected. Elijah represents those who will be alive at the coming of the Lord. Jesus was shining in the glory he will appear at the his second coming. ALso, that fulfills his prophecy that some standing here will not taste death until they see the coming of the Lord. JAMES, JOHN and PETER.

[Old Timer]

Mark, interestingly the verses in I Peter was the first subject brought up by Trinity in our Soapbox Debate.

I will copy some of that and post it here in reply to your "but...then" post above. BTW I did not change the word

[Old Timer]

Mark, yes, I am a bit tied up with the Soapbox Debate but I will reply, probably not in depth, to some of what you wrote.

You mention Mark 27:

Mt 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

First, notice that these saints are referred to as being asleep and that they arose, that is awoke. Noting here to indicate they were in heaven. Quite the contrary, it says they were sleeping and arose.

Second, others also rose from the dead, that is they awoke from sleep, such as Lazarus (John 11:11) and Jarius

[Guest saved*by*grace]

The Old Testament refers to the world of the dead as Sheol and the New Teastament refers to it as Hades. It was a place for all the believers and unbelievers that have departed from this life. But these places are not Hell, they are only temporary places where Hell lasts forever.

Hades consisted of 3 parts, (1)Abraham's bosom, (2) the great gulf, and (3)the place of torment. Abraham's Bosom was a place of comfort. This was the paradise of the Old Testament for all the believers. The place of torment also in Hades was where all the unbelievers went. The great gulf is what seperated them. It is an impassable gulf with no bottom. However unbelievers were able to look across and see the comforts and blessings of believers in paradise.

An example of Hades is found in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. When they both died Lazarus went to the place of comfort where he was with Abraham and probably with the other saints that have went on before him. The rich man however looked up from the place of torment and saw Lazarus being comforted. This showed that when the bodies of people in the old testament would die, their souls were in hades, not asleep.

Now, thanks to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ we as believers do not have to go to Hades-Sheol.

While on the cross Jesus said "It is finished," meaning humanity's debt of sin has been repayed, no longer requiring the animal sacrifices of the old testament. That is why the saints of the old testament couldn't go directly to Heaven. Animal blood was not sufficient enough to cleanse their sins away permanently. When Jesus shed his blood for our sins, the debt was repayed for the saints of old.

The location of Hades is spoken of as "down". When Christ was "taken up, and a cloud received Him out of sight, and they looked towrd Heaven as He went up." Acts 1:9-10

But when did this change happen? We know that Jesus went to paradise because Luke 23:43 He told the repentant thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise". The Bible says Jesus descended to Hades (the place of the dead) and led all the Old Testament believers who had been held there up to Heaven where they are presently with Him. So when we die our souls go up to heaven to be with the Lord.

Joanie

[the_raven_1313]

Hades consisted of 3 parts, (1)Abraham's bosom, (2) the great gulf, and (3)the place of torment. Abraham's Bosom was a place of comfort. This was the paradise of the Old Testament for all the believers. The place of torment also in Hades was where all the unbelievers went. The great gulf is what seperated them. It is an impassable gulf with no bottom. However unbelievers were able to look across and see the comforts and blessings of believers in paradise.

Joanie

I think I am going to have to read my Bible some more because I honestly have never came accross that before. But then again, I have learned much but still have much to learn. Can I ask in which version you read that?

[Old Timer]

Saved-by-grace,

You may want to follow the debate on Soul Sleep in which I am now engaged under the "Soabox Debate" thread. While all of the items you mention in your post have not yet been covered, rest assured, they will be.

[Old Timer]

Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Old Timer. What do you do with these passages? These two "Angels" were actual human prophets who were already in heaven in John's vision.

Btw, something is messed up with the color all of a sudden.

I'm not sure I get your exact point, "what do you do with these passages?"

I believe in a pe-tribulation rapture of the Church. At this point in Revelation 19 (in fact from chapter 4 to the end) the saints have been raised to meet the Lord in the air.

Do not use the last book in the Bible to interpret the first 65. Use the first 65 to interpret the last.