Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[The Barbarian]

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

So what do you think has changed?

 

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

We no longer live almost 1000 years for one thing.

Never did.   Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter.   God may have preserved the lifetimes of some humans, but He set the lifetime for humans generally at "fourscore and ten."    Seventy years.   You should believe what He says to you.

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Plants now grow slow in comparison for another.

Show us the evidence for that.    Looks like you just added something else to the Bible to make it more acceptable to you.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Spirits do not live openly with men and marry for another.

That's supernatural, not laws of nature.   Miracles still happen, BTW.   You're wrong on both of those assumptions.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

The earth is not watered from below today.

Often it is.  We call them "springs."   You're cofusing the Garden of Eden, a miracle of God, with natural laws.   

 

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

All we know are the laws we have now.

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence.    So you're wrong about that, too.  The answer is that science can find out about these things, and the Bible doesn't support your new revisions of it.

 

[dad2]

12 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God says that Adam had become like Him.   That's what I told you.   That's what God said.    I believe Him.   You should, too.

You quoted something about becoming gods. Satan said that. You are trying to attribute it to God. But there is another place in Scripture where it does talk about being as gods. It all depends on context. The devil goading Eve with saying she would be as a god was wrong and evil. The bible pointing out how we were created as high creatures in the image of God and as gods before we fell is good. It shows we need Jesus to regain what was lost.

12 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But as I told you, satan's words were deceptions by telling part of the truth.    Try to stay focused.   The Bible is God's word, not satan's.

He deceived her by telling her part of the truth, but not all of it.  God confirms that eating from the tree did make Adam like Him.   But there was more to that than satan told Eve.

 

Except man could not handle it. That was why God severely warned them not to eat the fruit. So only in one small way was fallen man like God in almost all ways he was no longer like Him! In fact he was now separated from God and dying physically and dead spiritually.

[dad2]

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Never did. 

That is direct unbelief in what the bible says. The lifespans are given carefully over and over and over and over.

 

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  Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

Not before and shortly after the flood.

 

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  God may have preserved the lifetimes of some humans, but He set the lifetime for humans generally at "fourscore and ten."    Seventy years.   You should believe what He says to you.

False. That was much later.

 

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That's supernatural, not laws of nature.   Miracles still happen, BTW.   You're wrong on both of those assumptions.

What we read in the bible is not an assumption. Neither was the average life span a miracle generally. You just do not believe. I wonder if you believe men will again live such long lives in the millennium?

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Often it is.  We call them "springs."   You're cofusing the Garden of Eden, a miracle of God, with natural laws.   

No I am not. After the garden plants still grew fast, spirits still lived in the world openly and married, and people lived many many centuries.

 

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But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

False. You project beliefs on to what we see out in space and everywhere else. It is a great deception that God expects us to reject and believe what He says.

 

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   So you're wrong about that, too.  The answer is that science can find out about these things, and the Bible doesn't support your new revisions of it.

The bible does record great differences in nature in the past and the future. Science cannot find out because it is locked into a belief system and totally unable to deal with anything spiritual or about what laws are like in the future or far past. Take that to the bank.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, The Barbarian.

You said, "Never did.   Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter.   God may have preserved the lifetimes of some humans, but He set the lifetime for humans generally at "fourscore and ten."    Seventy years.   You should believe what He says to you."

Actually, that goes AGAINST what was written in the Scriptures! It wasn't just a few people whose lives were lengthened. It was the whole of humanity who lived longer. It was the SHORTER life of Chanokh ("Enoch") that was notable, since he "walked with God and was not, for God took him."

One should ask oneself "where does it say 'fourscore and ten'?" A "score" is 20; so, "fourscore and ten" would be 4 x 20 + 10 = 90 years. I think you may have meant "THREEscore and ten," which would be 3 x 20 + 10 = 70 years.

"Threescore and ten" is found in Psalm 90:10.

Psalm 90:1-17 (KJV)

1 {A Prayer of Moses the man of God.}

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest,

"Return, ye children of men!"

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
10 The days of our years are THREESCORE YEARS AND TEN; and if by reason of strength they be FOURSCORE YEARS, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

You might consider all the other words in this psalm.

[The Barbarian]

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

You quoted something about becoming gods.

I quoted God:

Genesis 3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.  22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

Satan said that.

The Lord God is not Satan.   I think we've got it figured out now.   Satan is not the Lord God.   Thought you knew.

Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

False. That was much later.

That's your addition to scripture to make it more acceptable to you.

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

What we read in the bible is not an assumption.

Your additions to the Bible are assumptions, however.

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

False. You project beliefs on to what we see out in space and everywhere else.

Sorry, evidence works.   Your imagination, not so much.

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

It is a great deception

If you consider the evidence to be "deception", that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

Instead of adding things to scripture, why not just accept it as it is?

 

[The Barbarian]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One should ask oneself "where does it say 'fourscore and ten'?" A "score" is 20; so, "fourscore and ten" would be 4 x 20 + 10 = 90 years. I think you may have meant "THREEscore and ten," which would be 3 x 20 + 10 = 70 years.

Yes, He set human lifespan at three score and ten, sorry.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, that goes AGAINST what was written in the Scriptures! It wasn't just a few people whose lives were lengthened. It was the whole of humanity who lived longer. It was the SHORTER life of Chanokh ("Enoch") that was notable, since he "walked with God and was not, for God took him."

I know you want to believe that people lived longer many years ago, but as you see, neither scripture nor evidence supports that belief.

The Bible just doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

[JimmyB]

On 3/22/2023 at 6:57 PM, The Barbarian said:

Which is how we know that the creation story in Genesis is figurative.  No mornings or evenings absent a sun.

Wouldn't matter if there was.   It's not "big light in the sky"; it's when the Sun comes up.   Otherwise moonrise would be called "morning."    If you have to redefine words to make an idea work, that's probably a pretty good clue that there's a bigger problem therein.

 

"Moonrise" means the start of the day!  Genesis 1:3-5, "And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." The Jewish day begins at sunset. And there are some days when there is no visible moon.

[JimmyB]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:01 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Except that on creation week, scripture DOESN'T say sunrise. It says morning. This means there was a light source before the sun.

Nope.  The Biblical day begins at sunset.  See my post immediately above.

Edited July 31, 2023 by JimmyB

[JimmyB]

On 3/24/2023 at 7:12 AM, The Barbarian said:

And since the death God was speaking of was the one that happened that day, we know it was not a physical death God meant.

But God did say that Adam would die that day.   God didn't say that the process of dying would begin that day.   He plainly said that Adam would die that day. 

Why is that so hard to admit?

 

Genesis 3:17-19, "To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”

Obviously Adam did not die that day (physically).  He continued to live and produced children.

He did die spiritually though.

[dad2]

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I quoted God:

Genesis 3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.  22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The Lord God is not Satan.   I think we've got it figured out now.   Satan is not the Lord God.   Thought you knew.

Man had fallen from his eternal place and state. He had become sinful and fallen in nature. That is nothing like God. In one way man was like Him, but that was not a good thing at the time.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

No. Pre flood and early post flood man[s lives were much much longer. You simply do not believe and prefer to start where science thinks it knows ancient lifespans were.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That's your addition to scripture to make it more acceptable to you.

No, it is belief in what it states.

 

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

No. You can't. You superimpose beliefs onto what is seen. The result is a lie and delusion.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

If you consider the evidence to be "deception", that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

No. Evidence is great. Your beliefs painted on to evidence is the problem. Too bad you can't even tell the difference

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Instead of adding things to scripture, why not just accept it as it is?

 

The long lives are how it was. Etc etc. Why not believe, or at least not pretend to?