Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

51 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

I know you want to believe that, but scripture does not say that.  

No, that's wrong.   Because scripture makes it clear that the death was not a physical death. You should read it sometime. Here, I'll help you. 

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

And Adam eats, but he lives on physically for many years thereafter.   If God tells the truth, then the death He mentioned is not a physical one.  

In fact, if Jesus came to save us from physical death, He failed.   We will all die someday.   But He came to save us from the death that happened to Adam the day that he ate from the tree.   A spiritual death, and God makes that clear.  

Read it and learn.

 

I'm not seeing the words physical or spiritual there. Do you? Adam died both ways, just not at the exact same time. So if he died both ways, does it matter? There was NO death of ANY kind before Adam.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The key is that all this is referring to  human beings, not a blanket statement including the animal kingdom.  

We know this because of the CAUSE of HOW death "entered the world";  sin.  Animals don't sin.

Actually the word for death applies to people AND animals. There was NO animal death before Adam either. True, they don't sin, but the curse affected the whole universe,  not just people. 

[The Barbarian]

10 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The key is that all this is referring to  human beings, not a blanket statement including the animal kingdom.  

We know this because of the CAUSE of HOW death "entered the world";  sin.  Animals don't sin.

Yeah, I never got why people would want to think God would kill innocent animals to get even with sinful humans.

 

[kwikphilly]

@The Barbarian

@TrueFollowerOfChrist

You guys simply don't agree so why keep insisting "you're wrong,Im right"? Neither of you are going to change your mind so whats so important about being " right"?

I've already shared my perception- Spiritual death was " immediate" and the physical death " process" began immediately as well,it did it fact take 900 some odd yrs for Adam to fall down dead physically but the " death" sentence was for certain on that day.   

That is my perception,I don't see either Brother as " wrong" but certainly do not share the same view and if my own view is not 100 percent accurate,who cares? It's really semantics,isn't it- or is that " wrong" too--- I don't care,I'll be wrong and I don't have to be right- but I will not insist either of you need my help to see it my way,respectfully- you are both Understanding what happened that day and the importance of what happened on the day at Calvary,even more you both Understand what happened 3days later, Brothers -Praise Jesus!

Can I get an Amen?❤️

With love in Christ, Kwik

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Yeah, I never got why people would want to think God would kill innocent animals to get even with sinful humans.

Maybe understand Levicticus...

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I know you want to believe that, but scripture does not say that.  

TrueFollowerOfChrist had said,

"There was NO death before Adam sinned, spiritual or physical."

 

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Not so, my friend. Sure it does! We have the written Word as evidence:

Genesis 1:20-31; 2:1-3 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God CREATED great whales, and every living creature that moveth, WHICH THE WATERS BROUGHT FORTH abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said,

"LET THE EARTH BRING FORTH (Hebrew: towtsee' haa'aarets = "let-bring-out the-earth/land" [transitive verb, subject noun]) the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so. 25 And GOD MADE the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said,

"LET US MAKE MAN in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God CREATED he him; male and female CREATED he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."  

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat":

and it was so. 31 AND GOD SAW EVERY THING THAT HE HAD MADE, AND, BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

1 Thus THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM. 2 And on the seventh day GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God CREATED AND MADE.

In chapter two, we also read,

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

Genesis 2:15-20 (KJV)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 BUT of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE."

18 And the LORD God said, 

"It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

19 And OUT OF THE GROUND (Hebrew: min-haa'adaamaah, same words as in verse 7) THE LORD GOD FORMED (Hebrew: vayyitser, same word as in verse 7) EVERY BEAST OF THE FIELD, AND EVERY FOWL OF THE AIR; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Then, in chapter 3, we read about the temptation, the disobedience, and the results:

Genesis 3:1-24 (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman,

"Yea, hath God said, 'Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'"

2 And the woman said unto the serpent,

"We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, 'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, LEST YE DIE.'"

4 And the serpent said unto the woman,

"Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Hebrew: כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים kee'lohiym = "like-God"), knowing good and evil."

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him,

"Where art thou?"

10 And he said,

"I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

11 And he said,

"Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"

12 And the man said,

"The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman,

"What is this that thou hast done?"

And the woman said,

"The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent,

"Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

16 Unto the woman he said,

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': CURSED IS THE GROUND FOR THY SAKE; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, TILL THOU RETURN UNTO THE GROUND; FOR OUT OF IT WAST THOU TAKEN: FOR DUST THOU ART, AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

20 And Adam called his wife's name "Eve (Hebrew: חַוָּ֑ה Chavvaah = 'Life')"; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said,

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...": 

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground FROM WHENCE HE WAS TAKEN. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And, Paul said,

Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world (Greek: ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν hee harmartia eis ton kosmon eiseelthen = "the sin into the ordered-system entered"), and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED (Greek: καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς μὴ ἁμαρτήσαντας kai epi tous mee hamarteesantas = "and/even upon those not having sinned") after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul included the animals in that one statement, for who is more innocent than those who don't even know what "sin" is?

So, when the Man sinned, God cursed the EARTH and all that were formed from the earth! So, death passed into all the world (eis ton kosmon) because of Adam's sin! That means that death wasn't in the world until AFTER Adam had sinned!

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's not really a mystery.  Carnivorous animals go back long before humans.

No, sir. That's NOT TRUE! That is the evolutionary philosophic INTERPRETATION of the fossil evidence according to the "geologic column" which is itself an assumption of how things developed over time! 

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

You could say "Well, God kept spiders, mosquitoes, cats, and other obligate predators out of the garden."  Or alternately, you could imagine that God just miraculously put taurine in plants back then.  But that would  be yet another unscriptural assumption.  

OR, you could come to realize that all creatures didn't need taurine until the cats were made carnivores after the FLOOD! And, the same could be said for all the other creatures, as well. They were MADE carnivores or at least omnivores AFTER the FLOOD! God DID change the personalities of the animals to FEAR mankind after the Flood. Before, they were probably friendly toward men; at worst, they would have been indifferent. But, God said,

Genesis 9:2 (KJV)

2 "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."

I have a lot of anole lizards all around my house and yard. I will see one or two on my porch steps every morning. I try to speak softly to them to set them at ease as I pass, but their little heads are eyeing me, bobbing their heads up and down for depth perception, the whole time. It may seem ridiculous, but I try to encourage them, telling them that they're welcome to all the mosquitoes they can eat and thank them for eating them. None of that matters. If I pass by too close or too quickly, they run for cover!

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

This is one of the many reasons that most Christians realize that Genesis 1,2,and 3 are not literal histories, but figurative explanations of God's creation.

It wouldn't be having to eat in order to survive.   Have a little faith in God.

And, you could have a little more faith in God's WORD. THINGS CHANGED with the Flood! DRASTICALLY!

I believe that, with the richer soil, and the more consistent mist that went up every day from the earth, as well as the higher atmospheric pressure of having water above the atmosphere, the plants, too, were richer in nutrients than they were after the Flood. We only have some comparable vegetation in the jungles of South America or Africa or India. A mosquito could have gained what it needed from the plants directly. Pterosaurs couldn't fly in our atmosphere today! The atmosphere is not "rich" enough or thick enough for their sustained flight! They might be able to glide, like flying squirrels do today, but they wouldn't fly like an eagle does.

Those who believe in Evolution are constantly bombarded with the theory - at school, in the movies, in cartoons, in lectures by "experts" - but this has been going on for GENERATIONS, now! It's to the point that some students don't even know that there IS an alternative belief! And, that's MOST unfortunate! That leads to many of them becoming atheists or at best agnostics, and those who "hang on" to Christianity, think the Scriptures are just figurative explanations and allegory and that they don't REALLY mean "... ." We've fallen quite far when we won't even take GOD at His Word!

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Actually the word for death applies to people AND animals. There was NO animal death before Adam either. True, they don't sin, but the curse affected the whole universe,  not just people. 

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, sir. That's NOT TRUE! That is the evolutionary philosophic INTERPRETATION of the fossil evidence according to the "geologic column" which is itself an assumption of how things developed over time! 

OR, you could come to realize that all creatures didn't need taurine until the cats were made carnivores after the FLOOD! And, the same could be said for all the other creatures, as well. They were MADE carnivores or at least omnivores AFTER the FLOOD! God DID change the personalities of the animals to FEAR mankind after the Flood. Before, they were probably friendly toward men; at worst, they would have been indifferent. But, God said,

Genesis 9:2 (KJV)

2 "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."

I have a lot of anole lizards all around my house and yard. I will see one or two on my porch steps every morning. I try to speak softly to them to set them at ease as I pass, but their little heads are eyeing me, bobbing their heads up and down for depth perception, the whole time. It may seem ridiculous, but I try to encourage them, telling them that they're welcome to all the mosquitoes they can eat and thank them for eating them. None of that matters. If I pass by too close or too quickly, they run for cover!

And, you could have a little more faith in God's WORD. THINGS CHANGED with the Flood! DRASTICALLY!

I believe that, with the richer soil, and the more consistent mist that went up every day from the earth, as well as the higher atmospheric pressure of having water above the atmosphere, the plants, too, were richer in nutrients than they were after the Flood. We only have some comparable vegetation in the jungles of South America or Africa or India. A mosquito could have gained what it needed from the plants directly. Pterosaurs couldn't fly in our atmosphere today! The atmosphere is not "rich" enough or thick enough for their sustained flight! They might be able to glide, like flying squirrels do today, but they wouldn't fly like an eagle does.

Those who believe in Evolution are constantly bombarded with the theory - at school, in the movies, in cartoons, in lectures by "experts" - but this has been going on for GENERATIONS, now! It's to the point that some students don't even know that there IS an alternative belief! And, that's MOST unfortunate! That leads to many of them becoming atheists or at best agnostics, and those who "hang on" to Christianity, think the Scriptures are just figurative explanations and allegory and that they don't REALLY mean "... ." We've fallen quite far when we won't even take GOD at His Word!

There is a whole lot of wild animals that don't fear humans.

Whales are known to protect humans swimming or diving in the ocean from predators.

There are countless of video's of human interactions with wild animals on a friendly level and helping each other, enjoying each other's company.

And a DRASTIC amount of animals that are not flesh eaters.

Edited March 21, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

I've already shared my perception- Spiritual death was " immediate" and the physical death " process" began immediately as well,it did it fact take 900 some odd yrs for Adam to fall down dead physically but the " death" sentence was for certain on that day.   

That seems like a nonstarter to me.

God didn't say "someday you will die."   He said it would happen that day.   So whatever death there was, happened the same day that Adam ate from the tree.  But Adam lived on physically for many years thereafter.  

If God is truthful, then we know it wasn't a physical death.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by The Barbarian