Was the early church catholic?

[JimmyB]

23 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Christianity was illegal and met in hiding. Does this make any less church? Once it became legal things did change. Once it became preferred, then for some it became a way to socially move ahead. IMO. But it was always Catholic in the sense that it was for all peoples. Jew and Gentile alike 

That is "catholic" with a small "c", meaning universal.  Catholic with a capitalized "C" is a denomination that was formed much later than the beginning of Christianity.

Edited April 7, 2023 by JimmyB

[Anne2]

18 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

That is "catholic" with a small "c", meaning universal.  Catholic with a capitalized "C" is a denomination that was formed much later than the beginning of Christianity.

Actually the post was to distinguish or not "cell "groups, seeing Christianity was illegal for quite some time. How the Church developed later on, continues in various factions for sure.  

[Michael37]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:44 PM, portlie said:

This has been bothering me for a while now, most records seem to state that the early church was catholic. Where can i find knowledge of the actual history of our church? 

 

May I suggest you do a detailed study of the Book of Acts.

The first few chapters are vital to understanding the history of God's Ekklesia, literally His "called out ones".

Institutional Religion and Denominational Hierarchies are not to be confused with the actual body of Christ that first assembled in homes and ministered everywhere possible.

Many are unaware of the word congregation being a more appropriate translation of the Greek word ekklesia than the inaccurate word church which derives from the Greek kuriakon*, and are uninformed of the misapplication and historical political bias which led to the word "church" becoming synonymous with "clergy". 

* Kuriakon actually means “pertaining to the lord.” It is used twice in scripture: 1 Cor 11:20 The “ Lord’s [ kuriakon]supper;” and Rev 1:10, the “ Lord’s [ kuriakon] day.” In those passages it is the supper belonging to the Lord and the day belonging to the Lord respectively.

The pagan temples were kuriakon doma, meaning house of the lord, the lord in question being the demon attached to whatever idol and false god was the object of worship there. 

Quote: Is the word "church" a pagan term based on the Greek goddess Circe? | Questions and Answers | Tomorrow's World (tomorrowsworld.org)

But these words (like their original Greek source) meant the place of assembly, rather than the assembly itself as the biblical ekklesia does. William Tyndale's New Testament uses "robbers of churches" only in Acts 19:37, and then only in reference to those who commit sacrilege against pagan temples (the Greek word translated "robbers of churches" is the plural of hierosulos). Consistently, he translates ekklesia as "congregation," regardless of context.

[Dennis1209]

There are so many books written on the church's history I would not know where to start.

As others had mentioned, before the 4^th century, Christianity was outlawed and persecuted by both Rome and the Jews. They did not have Christian church buildings but underground home churches.

With the rise of Constantine in the 4^th century, a church-state religious practice was established, a universal (Catholic) church-state. The entire church's history is a fascinating and intriguing study. The letters Jesus wrote to the seven churches in Asia Minor (now Turkey) give us the history of the churches and ages in advance and can be accurately dated from hindsight.

Rather than post my lengthy notes on the history of the church in Revelation, if you are interested, I will post them.

[Anne2]

8 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

There are so many books written on the church's history I would not know where to start.

As others had mentioned, before the 4^th century, Christianity was outlawed and persecuted by both Rome and the Jews. They did not have Christian church buildings but underground home churches.

With the rise of Constantine in the 4^th century, a church-state religious practice was established, a universal (Catholic) church-state.

The entire church's history is a fascinating and intriguing study. The letters Jesus wrote to the seven churches in Asia Minor (now Turkey) give us the history of the churches and ages in advance and can be accurately dated from hindsight.

Rather than post my lengthy notes on the history of the church in Revelation, if you are interested, I will post them.

I think when Christianity became more than just legal, but preferred is when things started really going awry. Similar to the Pharisees who loved to be seen of men etc. Of course scripture forewarns they would be among us too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vine Abider]

On 4/5/2023 at 6:44 PM, portlie said:

This has been bothering me for a while now, most records seem to state that the early church was catholic. Where can i find knowledge of the actual history of our church? 

 

Lots of good responses on this already.  We had a thread on here a couple months ago discussing a classic book on this subject called, "The Pilgrim Church" by Broadbent. This book goes into detail regarding how the non-Roman Catholic Christians basically went underground for many centuries, and was still around when Martin Luthor started the protestant reformation.

Another book by Broadbent's contemporary, GH Lang, called "The Church of God" delves into exactly how the early church morphed into the Roman Catholic thing.

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Lots of good responses on this already.  We had a thread on here a couple months ago discussing a classic book on this subject called, "The Pilgrim Church" by Broadbent. This book goes into detail regarding how the non-Roman Catholic Christians basically went underground for many centuries, and was still around when Martin Luthor started the protestant reformation.

Another book by Broadbent's contemporary, GH Lang, called "The Church of God" delves into exactly how the early church morphed into the Roman Catholic thing.

The only thing that I think might be lacking is the Church in the East , the Orthodox.  Rome was only one Bishop of the historical Church. Ironically, the Eastern (catholic) church also split with Rome. That continues to this day. Is this history of the pilgrim Church found also among the rest of the Eastern bishops?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There are so many books written on the church's history I would not know where to start.

As others had mentioned, before the 4^th century, Christianity was outlawed and persecuted by both Rome and the Jews. They did not have Christian church buildings but underground home churches.

With the rise of Constantine in the 4^th century, a church-state religious practice was established, a universal (Catholic) church-state. The entire church's history is a fascinating and intriguing study. The letters Jesus wrote to the seven churches in Asia Minor (now Turkey) give us the history of the churches and ages in advance and can be accurately dated from hindsight.

Rather than post my lengthy notes on the history of the church in Revelation, if you are interested, I will post them.

Shabbat shalom, Dennis1209.

Well, the truth is that the Jews were not as big a threat to the Christians as were the Romans, except of course in the Land and in the larger communities where the Jews would congregate and start sunagoogas (a Greek word meaning "to bring together," sunagoogee, in the plural; synagogues), and the Jews also suffered at the hands of the Romans. It was the beginning of Jacob's Trouble, the Tribulation, and the persecutions of the Jews and the Christians were something that they had in common. "The enemy of my enemy is my 'friend'."

Recognizing that many of the members of the first churches were Jews themselves, they also had their history, traditions, and culture in common, but as more Gentiles were added to the churches, they grew apart. What separated them was the "gospel" of the Kingdom. As Paul put it in Romans 11,

Romans 11:28-29 (KJV)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

They WERE enemies because of the guilt that the Jews felt in being called "murderers" of their own Messiah, according to the believers, and they lashed out at the believers for their perceived condemnation. But, the "Christians" were often guilty of calling them "Christ-killers," forgetting that the Christ also died for their sins, as well, and that it was the ROMANS who actually crucified Him! All the same, the Jews WERE also God's "chosen people," His "elect."

The children of Israel ARE a "holy people!" They are also slated to be the "holy priesthood!" The word "holy" is often misunderstood. Some think it is synonymous with "righteous," but they are VERY different. 

A person can be "holy" without being "righteous." Furthermore, it is possible (however improbable) that a person could also be "righteous" without being "holy." To be "holy" is to be ceremonially cleansed for God's service; it is a person who is especially selected by God for some purpose.

To be "righteous," on the other hand, means to be sinless, perfectly keeping the Law of God.

Leviticus 20:22-26 (KJV)

22 "Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. 23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. 24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people. 25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. 26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Moses said,

Deuteronomy 7:1-6 (KJV)

1 "When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

and,

Deuteronomy 14:1-2 (KJV)

1 "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."

Instead of "peculiar," which has a bad connotation for us today, we should think "unique!" They were SINGLED OUT as a SPECIAL people unto YHWH God! THAT'S what "holy" means. It means "to be ritually cleaned," "to be sanctified," or "TO BE SET APART" for God's use!

 

[Anne2]

28 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, the truth is that the Jews were not as big a threat to the Christians as were the Romans, except of course in the Land and in the larger communities where the Jews would congregate and start sunagoogas (a Greek word meaning "to bring together," sunagoogee, in the plural; synagogues),

Sorry but the New covenant scripture refutes this notion. The exception you speak of was not synagogues, but the new Sanhedrin established under the roman Emperor Vespasian after the destruction of the temple. The often used phrase "constintinian Christianity" could easily be applied to the Sanhedrin at Yavneh, which gave authority to one sect, the Pharisees concerning the religion of the Jew's. It was by the roman emperor that post temple Judaism prospered in power over Jew's and Judaism. The Roman Emperors were simply doing what they always did, discern which religions were not a threat to the empire, thus given legality, by approval. Evidently, the Pharisees convinced Rome, they alone were not the cause of the Revolt and violence against Rome.

I think this is when their "traditions of men" peculiar to the sect, became law, which they called oral. Could we not say the same of this as others do the Church? Who gave authority of law to their traditions? Moses or Rome?

That however was disproved with the bar kochba revolt years later when he was proclaimed Messiah and another revolt began. That is when they lost Jerusalem for good. 

All I hope is for some fairness and balance..

Edited April 8, 2023 by Anne2

[farouk]

10 hours ago, Anne2 said:

The only thing that I think might be lacking is the Church in the East , the Orthodox.  Rome was only one Bishop of the historical Church. Ironically, the Eastern (catholic) church also split with Rome. That continues to this day. Is this history of the pilgrim Church found also among the rest of the Eastern bishops?

@Anne2 BTW, your phraseology is interesting; do you know of the book by E H Broadbent, 'the Pilgrim Church'?