The 5th Seal : Global martyrdom of Christians and destruction of Christianity

[R. Hartono]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, JoeCanada said:

Yes, the test IS right now, right here and now, in our tribulations and persecutions and afflictions, which many saints have endured since the crucifixion, and are still enduring trials and persecutions and afflictions today.

Do you think that in the great tribulation men will devise new ways to kill and torture people?

 

Revelation 20 said those who refused to worship the beast and its Mark were beheaded but resurrected before Christ millennium.

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

Christ millennium

We are in it now.

This all happened just prior to 70 AD. Vespian gave them two years pause before Titus came and destroyed the place. The Christians fled to Pella. Not one was lost. The Darby rendition of end times is just wrong. The so-called Apocalypse has already happened to Israel for God's wrath was already poured out in 70 AD. 

We Christians might have another few thousands of years before the Lord's enemies are all put under His feet. Yeshua reigns supreme right now. He is Lord of Lord and King of Kings right now.

Forget the Darby ideas and all the pre-mil and pre-trib stuff. It is all fake, and detracts from our Lord's directive to go and save the nations.

[R. Hartono]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

We are in it now.

This all happened just prior to 70 AD. Vespian gave them two years pause before Titus came 

Forget the Darby ideas and all the pre-mil and pre-trib stuff. It is all fake, and detracts from our Lord's directive to go and save the nations.

John received the Revelation circa 85 AD. 

Where in history happened that mankind was forced to receive the Mark of the beast for buying and selling ? 

Where in history happened of the resurrection of beheaded martyrs in Rev 20 ?

Edited June 14, 2023 by R. Hartono

[Justin Adams]

44 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Revelation circa 85 AD

Not proven and Matt 24 explains all you see in Revelation.

[R. Hartono]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Not proven and Matt 24 explains all you see in Revelation.

Just wait and see. 

 

[The Light]

On 4/30/2023 at 10:04 AM, DeighAnn said:

There is a 'falling away' and there are fellowservants.  The GREAT tribulation comes upon all who take the mark of the beast, both those who have fallen away and those who have always been of the world.  

 

No. The great tribulation comes upon those that DO NOT take the mark of the beast.

[The Light]

On 4/30/2023 at 3:40 PM, Selah7 said:

Sounds good; I agree. 

Revelation 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

According to the verse above, the two witnesses have one thousand two hundred and threescore days which = 3 1/2 years.  Notice that it’s days, not moons.  This is the last half of the 3 1/2 year period shortened to 2 1/2 months if we consider Revelation 9:5:  And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Since 1260 days are longer than 42 months, it follows that the two witnesses will arrive in Jerusalem a few days before the Antichrist.  The two witnesses should therefore be spotted around two and a half months into the locusts' five-month period.  

and there’s my  

The 5 months have nothing to do with the shortening of 3.5 years. The 3.5 years are not shortened.

Additionally, 1260 days is not longer than 42 months. 1260 days is 42 months exactly.

The two witnesses will arrive before the Antichrist as the Antichrist kills them so they have to arrive before.

I expect the 2 witness will arrive shortly after the PreTribulation Rapture.

[DeighAnn]

8 minutes ago, The Light said:

No. The great tribulation comes upon those that DO NOT take the mark of the beast.

I guess it depends on if you think Satans deception is worse than the destruction of Satan and all those who have taken the mark of the beast that comes at the return of CHRIST.  


Is Satan deceiving and killing bodies the GREATEST the world has ever known or ever will or do you the

 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10 KJV

That might be a greater TRIB? 

 Satans trib is upon the SAINTS, 

GODS TRIB is upon the whole world AND the earth...


And WHY WOULD GOD REIGN DOWN DESTRUCTION UPON HIS OWN PEOPLE?  You don't think those who have endured to the end WILL BE PROTECTED?  Remember the lesson taught by the fiery furnace.  I'm not worried. 


As for 'the trib of Satan/the trib of those days'...

Pick up my cross and might be killed?  I am willingly to go through trials and SUFFER for HIS NAMESAKE.  So THAT can't be the GREAT TRIB

WHAT CAN SATAN DO TO ME?  Kill my body?  I was told NOT TO FEAR, and so I don't. Anyone who does or teaches we should 'fear' the things promised would is going against what is clearly and simply written. 

Can ANY experience come upon me that has never come upon someone before me?  NO.  Eve was tempted and deceived by Satan. HOW?  by CHANGING what GOD SAID and adding her own thoughts as well.   Jesus was tempted and He just stuck with what was written.  EVEN THE WAY SATAN POSES QUESTIONS should be a lesson to us all.  

But is ANY OF THAT like the return of Christ for the DAY OF VENGEANCE?  Great trib comes FROM GOD.  

Anyway, I don't see myself as any better than them, so why shouldn't I suffer the same things.  Jesus picked up HIS CROSS and went to HIS DEATH. I am willing to pick up my cross and go to mine.  YOU?   "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:38 KJV 

IS that what is being taught?  Is that what will be taught to the very end?  It should be. Nothing else should be.  WHO LAID DOWN THAT FOUNDATION?  



The GREAT tribulation comes AFTER the tribulation of those days. Our TRIB comes from Satan, not GOD. THE GREAT TRIB COMES FROM GOD, not Satan. Our trib is NOT BEING DECEIVED into believing a lie and NOT taking the mark and enduring to the end NO MATTER WHAT. 

That is not the time of the worlds tribulation while we are KEEPING ourselves FROM the world those of the world are getting all fat and happy by believing the lying signs and wonders WORSHIPPING ANOTHER and believing the one standing calling himself 'God' is.  

It is not until AFTER OUR TRIB that those who have taken the mark of the beast comes.  The GREAT TRIB such as the world has never seen nor ever would.  Could Satan accomplish anything like that?  NEVER.   How did Satan deceive Eve?  Telling a lie, getting her to disobey.  How did Satan try to deceive Jesus?  Promising Him TEMPORARY stuff that if accepted ultimately would cause Him to lose His inheritance.  How does Satan deceive today?  Promising peace and safety that isn't real (FLY AWAY).  How will Satan deceive tomorrow?  LYING signs and wonders that would DECEIVE even Gods elect, IF given enough time.  


Rev 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

NOT SUPPOSED TO FEAR DEATH
NOT SUPPOSED TO FEAR WHAT WE WILL SUFFER (even being tried and tribulation of the devil) 


WHAT WOULD A 'FALSE DOCTRINE' teach?  The exact opposite of course.  What would be the exact opposite of don't fear death and suffering? 

"don't get left behind to SUFFER and BE KILLED as THAT is a PUNISHMENT from God":   .  

HOW does GOD who never changes pull a 180 and STILL REMAIN 'GOD who never changes'?  CAN'T


SATAN COMES FIRST to deceive the whole world, CHRIST returns and DESTROYS all those lies AND all those selling and buying them.

   
The GREAT TRIB comes AFTER the TRIB of those days, MAKING the GREAT TRIB

THE DAY OF VENGEANCE. 

Where would Satan ever get the power REQUIRED to produce 'WHAT HAS NEVER BEEN NOR EVER WILL BE'?  



Remember the SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR?  Told to WAIT for a SEASON,
not for their FELLOWSERVANTS to be 'raptured up to meet them'
but FOR THEIR FELLOWSERVANTS TO BE KILLED AS THEY WERE.  



SATAN COMES FIRST
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

FOLLOWED BY 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

ONLY GOD could accomplish that.  Satan deceives.  God destroys.  Satan can kill the body, God can kill BOTH the body and soul. 


SATAN COMES FIRST 
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


SATAN COMES FIRST
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


SATAN COMES FIRST
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

SATAN COMES FIRST
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


SATAN COMES FIRST
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


SATAN COMES FIRST
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


SATAN COMES FIRST
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


and HERE IS THE REASON IT ALL MATTERS SO VERY MUCH

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

THAT GENERATION WILL NOT FLY AWAY BEFORE THEY SEE ALL THINGS COME TO PASS,

but what if it could be deceived somehow...

get them to believe a lie FIRST...a 'bait and switch' of some sort...
get them to WATCH for 'what isn't coming' so they remain blissfully unaware of what is, 
get them to believe there will be it nothing but DEATH and DESTRUCTION, Christians all over the WORLD being 'beheaded' in front of everyone, persecuted, being made to give up their FAITH, their Lord and Saviour

that way, they will have no idea that all the 'PEACE AND SAFETY AND PROSPERITY' is just covering the fact that it is THEIR SOULS that are going from SAVED to DECEIVED, and that is the DEATH taking place.  It is DEATH BY DECEPTION and lies, not by violence and force.  They fall away from lack of knowledge.  The famine is for the words of God, the TRUTH that saves.  

The many false Christs are here and now and the false doctrines all do the same exact thing.  Make you QUESTION what is written, then spin a truth NOT. 

 
Ever think about the 'MIND SET' that believing 'YOU WON'T BE HERE' sets in an assembly of Christians?  

SINCE THEY 'aren't going to be here anyway' then NOTHING coming in their lives will ever be DECEPTION.  And with that, NOTHING they do could ever be 'CONSIDERED' to be taking the mark of the beast. 

How could anyo of it, when they have been TAUGHT they won't be here.  

  

But you know what SHOULD BE the scariest thing of all, especially for everyone HERE? 

Many are being presented with GODS TRUTH, TIME AND AGAIN, 
and choosing UNRIGHTEOUSNESS over it, time and again.



Another problem - The two witnesses PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM up until they are killed means the CHURCH AGE hasn't ended.  The 'time of the gentiles' has not been fulfilled, and the 'blindness' has not come off. 

any of that matter? 



AGAIN, DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE RETURN OF CHRIST is this verse

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Making ONE SIDE is correct, the OTHER in deception  



Now you know how I got to where I am.  How do you make all that go away and what do you replace it with?  

[The Light]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Anyway, I don't see myself as any better than them, so why shouldn't I suffer the same things.  Jesus picked up HIS CROSS and went to HIS DEATH. I am willing to pick up my cross and go to mine.  YOU?   "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:38 KJV 

We should have already picked up the cross. We don't wait until the great tribulation.

 

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The GREAT tribulation comes AFTER the tribulation of those days.

No. The great tribulation is part of the tribulation of those days.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Our TRIB comes from Satan, not GOD.

Correct.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THE GREAT TRIB COMES FROM GOD, not Satan.

This is totally incorrect sister. Where do you get this idea from? Is this being taught?

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Our trib is NOT BEING DECEIVED into believing a lie and NOT taking the mark and enduring to the end NO MATTER WHAT. 

We can escape all these things that come to pass we are told if we are worthy. We are worthy because of His Son.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It is not until AFTER OUR TRIB that those who have taken the mark of the beast comes.  The GREAT TRIB such as the world has never seen nor ever would.  Could Satan accomplish anything like that?  NEVER.   How did Satan deceive Eve?  Telling a lie, getting her to disobey.  How did Satan try to deceive Jesus?  Promising Him TEMPORARY stuff that if accepted ultimately would cause Him to lose His inheritance.  How does Satan deceive today?  Promising peace and safety that isn't real (FLY AWAY).  How will Satan deceive tomorrow?  LYING signs and wonders that would DECEIVE even Gods elect, IF given enough time.  

The great tribulation comes from Satan against believers. The Church will be in heaven at this time......those that are watching and ready for the return of the bridegroom.

 

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Rev 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Ok. I finally see what your problem is. You are in the wrong Church. You need to be in this Church.

Revelation 3

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This Church gets an open door that no one can close and no one can open. This Church will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come over all the world.

You might want to change churchs.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

THAT GENERATION WILL NOT FLY AWAY BEFORE THEY SEE ALL THINGS COME TO PASS,

 

 

Wow. You served that up right over the middle of the plate. 

There's a deep drive. The players look up and turn facing centerfield suffering whiplash in the process. The camera has last lost sight of the ball as it leaves the stadium like a polished rocket hitting the second stage booster. It's still going......

Matthew 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

How long is a generation? 70 years but 80 in strength.

Psalm 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Edited June 14, 2023 by The Light

[DeighAnn]

59 minutes ago, The Light said:

We should have already picked up the cross. We don't wait until the great tribulation.

Carrying that cross ENDS AT DEATH and not before.  So yes, it is PICKED UP but it ISN'T SET DOWN.  

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

No. The great tribulation is part of the tribulation of those days.

BUT THAT isn't what is written, is it?  

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

GREEK 
IMMEDIATELY THEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION THE DAYS OF THOSE

THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON NOT WILL GIVE THE LIGHT OF IT AND THE STARS WILL FALL FROM THE SKY AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS WILL BE SHAKEN


Lexicon
"But immediately    Εὐθέως
(eutheōs)    2112: at once, directly    adverb from euthus
after    μετἆ
(meta)    3326: with, among, after    a prim. preposition
the tribulation    θλῖψιν
(thlipsin)    2347: tribulation    from thlibó
of those    ἐκείνων
(ekeinōn)    1565: that one (or neut. that thing), often intensified by the art. preceding    from ekei
days    ἡμερῶν
(ēmerōn)    2250: day    a prim. word
THE SUN    ἥλιος
(ēlios)    2246: the sun    a prim. word
WILL BE DARKENED,    σκοτισθήσεται
(skotisthēsetai)    4654: to darken    from skotos
AND THE MOON    σελήνη
(selēnē)    4582: the moon    from selas (a bright flame)
WILL NOT GIVE    δώσει
(dōsei)    1325: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.)    redupl. from the root do-
ITS LIGHT,    φέγγος
(phengos)    5338: light, brightness    a prim. word
AND THE STARS    ἀστέρες
(asteres)    792: a star    from a prim. root ster-
WILL FALL    πεσοῦνται
(pesountai)    4098: to fall    from a redupl. of the prim. root pet
from the sky,    οὐρανοῦ
(ouranou)    3772: heaven    a prim. word
and the powers    δυνάμεις
(dunameis)    1411: (miraculous) power, might, strength    from dunamai
of the heavens    οὐρανῶν
(ouranōn)    3772: heaven    a prim. word
will be shaken.    σαλευθήσονται
(saleuthēsontai)    4531: to agitate, shake, by ext. to cast down    from salos


WHEN SATAN is kicked out the SUN PUTS ON SACKCLOTH and the MOON BECOMES BLOOD....

BUT AFTER the SUN is darkened and the MOON can't give LIGHT 

BECAUSE 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING

They go DARK because THEY CAN'T COMPETE with the BRIGHTNESS of the coming of the Lord.  BIG BIG differences.  


 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

This is totally incorrect sister. Where do you get this idea from? Is this being taught?

See the above.  The WORDS of GOD are my teacher, the Holy Spirit is my leader in HIS WORDS.  

Here is the problem with what YOU SAY.  EVERYONE who reads it sees it says AFTER THE TRIB OF THOSE DAYS

and IF THERE WASN'T anyone saying 'it's the same' THEY WOULD NEVER THINK such a thing, so I ask you the same question 'where do you get that idea from?  Who is teaching you such things?  How do they get you to take what is written and make it say something that clearly isn't?  

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

We can escape all these things that come to pass we are told if we are worthy. We are worthy because of His Son.

We ESCAPE through the wisdom and knowledge of God.  DOESN'T MEAN we aren't tested.  EVERYONE is.  Being worthy because of His Son doesn't mean we go without trials.  WE are promised trials, temptations, persecutions and even DEATH.  NO WHERE is there EVER an 'escape' by TRANSFIGURATION pre trib.  The ONLY TIME anyone is 'changed' is when HEAVEN COMES TO REIGN ON EARTH.  

 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

The great tribulation comes from Satan against believers. The Church will be in heaven at this time......those that are watching and ready for the return of the bridegroom.

The bridegroom comes WHEN BUYING AND SELLING gets the door shut, NOT BEFORE.  

We can BUY AND SELL all we want to right now, and THE DOOR IS NOT SHUT.  The door will not be shut UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS.  And He is returning with the armies of heaven and as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS.

The two witnesses are STILL PROCLAIMING the words of God so THE CHURCH AGE HASN'T ENDED  since the time of the GENTILES will NOT have been fulfilled.  God is going to the VERY END to save every soul possible.   

EVEN the PRE TRIB RAP has its TRIB SAINTS which in itself PROVES the time of the gentiles has NOT BEEN FULFILLED 


We don't get to pick out the things WE LIKE and disregard the things that don't fit and call it good. That is making our own religion.  

6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

If the time of the gentiles was fulfilled the blindness would come off and there would be NO ONE ELSE coming....and THE TWO STICKS would be made one.  

 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

The great tribulation comes from Satan against believers. The Church will be in heaven at this time......those that are watching and ready for the return of the bridegroom.

IF ONLY you could get THE WORDS OF GOD to say such a thing. 

THAT is PURELY A DOCTRINE OF MAN.  

Is the 'church' ever once referred to as 'the elders' or are we told a CHURCH HAS ELDERS?   

If the tabernacle had to be made a specific way BECAUSE it was a SHADOW of the one in heaven, why would elders be there FIRST? 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You might want to change churchs.

ONE BODY, MANY MEMEBERS.  

So, NO NEED TO CHANGE CHURCHES, EVERY MESSAGE GOES TO EVERY CHURCH.  IT IS MAN that divides what has been made one, NOT GOD.  

7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

NOUN- DATIVE FEMINE PLURAL

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Psalm 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

THAT IS AT YOUR DEATH

or don't you understand the previous verse.   THIS IS WHY GOD TELLS US HOW TO READ HIS WORDS TO COME TO HIS TRUTH

PRECEPT ON PRECEPT, PRECEPT ON PRECEPT, VERSE BY VERSE........not just WHERE EVER WE FIND SOMETHING that WE WANT TO SAY.