The God Who Is versus the God most believe in

[JohnD]

God individual A = God individual B = God individual C

Today I have become your father (Hebrews 1:5):

Father > you ( ">" is a cosine greater than versus "<" which is less than)

In Spirit, Jesus is still = to the Father

but in his humanity, Jesus is < the Father who created his humanity / body and

therefore the Father of his body is (as his humanity creator) his God.

My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?  (Psalm 22:1 / Matthew 27:46)

I go to my God and your God (John 20:17). ←this is the answer to those like the JW's who

question how could God have a God?

Jesus is fully God and fully human. IN his deity he is equal with God. IN his humanity, the Father

is his God.

 

[JohnD]

When we get past the limitations of human communication / understanding and the terms used to describe the individuals of the Godhead (to the clinical) we are better able to understand the Trinity. How the one God is triune. The triune coexistence of three Spirit individuals is no harder to grasp than the three spatial dimensions or how  three flames can converge into one. Individuals one and all, and only one of the three (God the Word) took upon himself the additional human form God the Authority created so that he could redeem the lost.

This is also why Jesus is referred to at times in scripture as an ampersand fashion "God AND Jesus Christ." He is equal to God but with an additional nature God the Authority and God the Author do not have.

 

[JohnD]

I get the impression this is going a bit deeper than most (outside of a Christian think tank) want to delve.

[LiveWire]

Nowhere in Scripture does it come right out say God is a Person, or Person's.

But in trying to understand God, we have categorized and broken Him down to the point God is like an invisible friend.   What do most people do with people, boss them around.   People try to boss God all of the time.  But there are times I need to step back and see God, holding little Earth in His Palm, and somewhere inside little Earth, is even tinier ME!   I need to refocus Who God is, not what I conformed Him to be based upon years of Church Teachings and general research.

[kwikphilly]

12 hours ago, JohnD said:

I get the impression this is going a bit deeper than most (outside of a Christian think tank) want to delve.

Sure is !It does provoke alot of thought and as LiveWire just commented,which is interesting,most Christians do regard God their Invisible "Friend" which is great because He is our Friend but so very much MORE than that,He IS  after all,Almighty God - the Great I Am..... There must be that Reverence in Awe,with yes FEAR & Trembling

Don't you Fear His Wrath that is Impending? I do ,though not for us but for  every one that will bow before Him that rejected Him.....I Fear the Day His Long Suffering & Patience ends and their will be a fate worse than death,knowing not everyone has the Seal of Redemption,they have not the Grace of God

He is Mighty & Worthy to be Praised with Honor,Glory and our ThanksGiving with humility.... We are so so so small,He is SoSoSo Mighty !

[Arial]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:08 AM, JohnD said:

While it is true that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God the Father, and that he (Jesus) is eternal God (the Word), he is not the eternal Son. Nor is God the Father the eternal Father. Observe:

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"This day" establishes a point in time and eternity that something begins ( rather than "from everlasting" or "from eternity past" ). Prior to that point, neither the sonship or the fatherhood applied to either of them.

Jesus was not the Son until the incarnation. "he shall be to me a Son"

Nor was his Father the Father of anything until the incarnation. "I will be to him a Father"

Prior to the incarnation, the Middle Person in the the Trinity (God the Word who became Jesus in the incarnation) was the Father of creation (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). Observe:

I will need to ponder this as it gets somewhat confusing in my mind, though it sounds right. If it is, then I must acknowledge that I have often stated it incorrectly as I always refer to the eternal Son who became/came as Jesus. So what I think you are saying is that Jesus  the Son, is eternal but not eternal as the Son? What makes it get confusing for me is the word "Word" substituted as eternal rather than Son. (I confuse myself even trying to explain my confusion!) I don't think it is wrong I am simply having trouble putting the pieces together.

I know Jesus is the Word. I know and understand that Jesus calls God Father because as Son of man, in His incarnation, God is a Father to Him, and that He gives that relationship of addressing God as Father to us (I think of it is the new covenant name of God given to believers as Yahweh was given in the old covenant. We are His children.) That is how I was thinking of it. 

[BibleWords]

On 5/13/2023 at 5:02 AM, JohnD said:

And in the Isaiah 44:24 we read (twice) that Jesus created all things "by myself."

That verse is including all three plural of the Trinity and not just Jesus.

Why would you say that this is Jesus only in creation?

Of course all three are all there, but all are included in creation.

It doesn’t say otherwise.

[JohnD]

11 hours ago, Arial said:

I will need to ponder this as it gets somewhat confusing in my mind, though it sounds right. If it is, then I must acknowledge that I have often stated it incorrectly as I always refer to the eternal Son who became/came as Jesus. So what I think you are saying is that Jesus  the Son, is eternal but not eternal as the Son? What makes it get confusing for me is the word "Word" substituted as eternal rather than Son. (I confuse myself even trying to explain my confusion!) I don't think it is wrong I am simply having trouble putting the pieces together.

I know Jesus is the Word. I know and understand that Jesus calls God Father because as Son of man, in His incarnation, God is a Father to Him, and that He gives that relationship of addressing God as Father to us (I think of it is the new covenant name of God given to believers as Yahweh was given in the old covenant. We are His children.) That is how I was thinking of it. 

1 John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word of life as "that eternal life which was with the Father..." this is the same Word (the Word was God) in John 1:1-2.

But the sonship of Jesus did not occur until the incarnation. Hebrews 1:5

Nor did the Fatherhood of "the Father" until the incarnation.  Hebrews 1:5

And our relationship to the Father of Jesus (Creator of his body / humanity) as our Father is through the adoption of sons (Romans 8:15).

This is why Jesus spoke distinctively about "my Father, and your Father..." John 20:17. Not "our Father."

[JohnD]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:26 PM, LiveWire said:

Nowhere in Scripture does it come right out say God is a Person, or Person's.

But in trying to understand God, we have categorized and broken Him down to the point God is like an invisible friend.   What do most people do with people, boss them around.   People try to boss God all of the time.  But there are times I need to step back and see God, holding little Earth in His Palm, and somewhere inside little Earth, is even tinier ME!   I need to refocus Who God is, not what I conformed Him to be based upon years of Church Teachings and general research.

Good point. But under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13) who wrote the Bible (2 Peter 1:21) we can learn a great deal about God and the nature / make up of God in scripture (...precept upon precept... line upon line... here a little there a little Isaiah 28:9-13). While God is to be held in highest esteem, he can be knowable... and has revealed himself enough to gain this knowledge from the Bible.

[JohnD]

10 hours ago, BibleWords said:

That verse is including all three plural of the Trinity and not just Jesus.

Why would you say that this is Jesus only in creation?

Of course all three are all there, but all are included in creation.

It doesn’t say otherwise.

You are imposing your belief on the text.

What it actually says is:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

And from John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 we learn that this divine individual was none other than the preincarnate Jesus.

 

This helps us to understand how Jesus is the only Son of the Father. The only thing the Father created is the body of the Son (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

 

All three individuals of the Godhead were present at the time of creation (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) but the preincarnate Jesus acted alone by himself in creating all things created in the beginning.