But what about the thief on the cross?

[Dead Orthodoxy]

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

[FJK]

If I understand rightly, the thief was given forgiveness directly by Christ himself, as were others before him.

Jesus forgave sins because he was the Son of God and present in the world at the time he did.

The Holy Spirit and Baptism came after he left the world, this is what replaced him being among us for the forgiveness of our sin.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

The thief had a baptism alright! He was baptized with the Lord.

Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Mr. M
removed text

[Mr. M]

49 minutes ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

I mean no disrespect to you personally for asking a legitimate question, but as to those who are concerned with water baptism for the thief on the cross, I will go ahead and state the obvious. The brother was dead! Someone may have performed the appropriate ritual washings before his burial, but Christian baptism sets the believer on a new path, to walk in newness of life. Don't see the application here.

[Dead Orthodoxy]

4 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Are you saying that this was not a "Christian baptism"?

John 3:22-26 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. For John had not yet been thrown into prison. Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!

John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples).

The thief had a baptism alright! He was baptized with the Lord.

Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 

Any standard Bible dictionary gives several meaning to the word "baptize."  Christian baptism as practiced historically contain at least three elements: 1) water applied to the human body 2) usage of the Trinue formula 3) another Christain baptizing you.   These elements are not present in  Luke  12 because Jesus uses another meaning of baptism, to refer to his suffering.  Luke 12:49 has a different meaning than the historic administration of Christian baptism.

John's baptism is not Christian baptism.  Why?  The absence of the Trinue formula.  In Acts 19, John's disciples never heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul then ordered them to be baptize into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[Mr. M]

Just now, Dead Orthodoxy said:

These elements are not present in  Luke  12 because Jesus uses another meaning of baptism, to refer to his suffering.  Luke 12:49 has a different meaning than the historic administration of Christian baptism.

I understand that the baptism the Lord speaks of in Luke 12 is different. I am just pointing out that the thief was there enduring the suffering of the cross, at least physically. Obviously he could not take on the sin of the whole world with its guilt and shame. Just sharing some thoughts. Jesus said that the son of man would be glorified at the crucifixion. Who's to say this was not a baptism in the "Spirit of Glory" (1 Peter 4:14) for the one who was told he would be with Him in paradise? You have really got me contemplating the matter now!

John 12:23-26 But Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

As many times as I have been told by people while out witnessing that "it's too late for me, God could never forgive me for what I have done", the testimony of the thief stands through time that it is never too late. It is in this witness that he serves in the Gospel of the Lord Christ Jesus.

[JimmyB]

Water baptism is a ritual that effectively demonstrates that a person has buried the natural sinful person and has been reborn as a new person in Christ.

[Dead Orthodoxy]

5 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

As many times as I have been told by people while out witnessing that "it's too late for me, God could never forgive me for what I have done", the testimony of the thief stands through time that it is never too late. It is in this witness that he serves in the Gospel of the Lord Christ Jesus.

Amen.   At least two individuals were converted during our Lord's suffering and death.  The thief and the Centurian when he said "Surely this man was the Son of God."  A gentile and a sinner one side of the cross and the pious Scribes, Sadducees and Pharisee's on the other.  

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

Here is a final thought and I have to head out.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Could it be that thief was the first to pass from death to life?

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

Shalom, Dead Orthodoxy.

One should understand that "baptism" is NOT a new thing with the Resurrection of the Messiah! It was an OLD TESTAMENT RITUAL CLEANSING! They were already being washed in the mikvah as a real cleansing of the body and a symbolic cleansing of their sins! What was different was doing so as a means to identify with the Messiah, admitting that their sins were washed away with the death of the Messiah!