But what about the thief on the cross?

[Dead Orthodoxy]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

A baptism is a PICTURE of what God has already done for the person

Chapter and verse, please.  Where does Scripture specifically state baptism is a PICTURE?

Typical Baptist speak.

[other one]

Quote

John 14:6-7
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.  7
ESV

What Jesus us saying here is that it is he and I bleieve only he decides who is saved.  I don't believe it is in our best interests to tell him how to make that decision.

Quote

Rom 10:9-10
 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
ESV

Interestingly Romans tells us that we definitely will be saved by confessing Jesus is our Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.   Of course that confession must be truthful.  You must be guilty of having Jesus as your Lord.

If Jesus is your Lord, then we are bound to do the things he has told us to do.   Love God, Love our neighbor, repent of our wrong doings, be baptized...  ECT.

Are we to be baptized?   Of course we are, not to be saved though, because he is our Lord and told us to.  Can you be saved and not baptized if possible?   I hardly think so for you have made yourself a liar about Jesus being your Lord.

That's why I try to explain it as Baptism doesn't save a person, but a saved person will get baptized if possible.   

In the example of the thief on the cross, it was pretty obvious that he did not have a chance to be baptized, but from his language it appears to me at least that he was expecting Jesus to not remain dead and referred to him being in His kingdom and asking for Jesus to remember him.         To me that is a Romans 10 salvation.

 

Jesus really does make that decision and I don't think it's a good idea for us to tell hiim how to do it.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Chapter and verse, please.  Where does Scripture specifically state baptism is a PICTURE?

Typical Baptist speak.

Shalom, Dead Orthodoxy.

Sure, I was raised as an INDEPENDENT BAPTIST, and when I came of age and recognized my sins and my need for a Savior, I turned to the Messiah Yeeshuwa` ("the Christ Jesus"), who paid for my sins by His own death on the cross, and I was JUSTIFIED by God, who set me FREE from the bondage of sin into the glorious liberty of the children of God!

Colossians 2:8-15 (KJV)

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Romans 6:1-14 (KJV)

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

There's a CONTRAST shown in these verses, the REAL versus the PICTURE. The Messiah (in Greek, the Christ) REALLY DIED and WAS REALLY BURIED. Then, He was REALLY RESURRECTED to REAL, NEW LIFE, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN! "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him!"

The Picture of this is that we "Died with Him" in our trespasses and our sins, for "He BECAME our sin for us, who knew no sin." (2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, we were likewise BURIED, "PLANTED TOGETHER in the LIKENESS (a PICTURE) of His death." And, so, we are also "BURIED WITH HIM," "PLANTED TOGETHER (with Him) IN THE LIKENESS (a PICTURE) of His death. And, if that's true, then "we shall be also IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION," as we come up out of the water! "For sin shall not have dominion over you," and we "likewise reckon (consider) also ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Yeeshuwa` the Messiah our Master!"

That's the PICTURE, but now, the REALITY FOR US is that we shall LITERALLY be raised from the dead at the coming of our Master, to live with Him eternally!

Titus 2:11-14 (KJV)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

For we look forward with anticipation for the redemption of our bodies!

Romans 8:9-27 (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, HE THAT RAISED UP CHRIST FROM THE DEAD SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION, whereby we cry, "Abba" (Aramaic or Hebrew of a child trying to say "Abiy"), "Father" (translation of the Greek "Pateer"). 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then HEIRS; HEIRS OF GOD, AND JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I should also mention that the older English of the KJV uses the word "hope" in the same way we use the word "assurance" today. It wasn't an "I hope so" kind of hope; it was a CONFIDENT ASSURANCE that something would be happening!

[Dead Orthodoxy]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's a CONTRAST shown in these verses, the REAL versus the PICTURE. The Messiah (in Greek, the Christ) REALLY DIED and WAS REALLY BURIED. Then, He was REALLY RESURRECTED to REAL, NEW LIFE, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN! "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him!"

The Picture of this is that we "Died with Him" in our trespasses and our sins, for "He BECAME our sin for us, who knew no sin." (2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, we were likewise BURIED, "PLANTED TOGETHER in the LIKENESS (a PICTURE) of His death." And, so, we are also "BURIED WITH HIM," "PLANTED TOGETHER (with Him) IN THE LIKENESS (a PICTURE) of His death. And, if that's true, then "we shall be also IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION," as we come up out of the water! "For sin shall not have dominion over you," and we "likewise reckon (consider) also ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Yeeshuwa` the Messiah our Master!"

This is gibberish.  Where is this word "picture" in Scripture? It is nowhere except in your mind.  Are you saying all of Christ's work is a PICTURE?  Is regeneration a PICTURE?  New birth a PICTURE? Creation a PICTURE?  Second coming a PICTURE?

Nonsense.

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

This is gibberish.  Where is this word "picture" in Scripture? It is nowhere except in your mind.  Are you saying all of Christ's work is a PICTURE?  Is regeneration a PICTURE?  New birth a PICTURE? Creation a PICTURE?  Second coming a PICTURE?

Nonsense.

 

Shalom, Dead Orthodoxy.

Well, your UNDERSTANDING of what I wrote is nonsense. Lord, please open up his eyes to the truth of these passages and SHOW him - REVEAL to him - that the baptism ritual itself is the PICTURE of the very REAL work of the Messiah!

[Solus Christus]

7 hours ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Chapter and verse, please.  Where does Scripture specifically state baptism is a PICTURE?

Typical Baptist speak.

Belief in Jesus is what saves you not water baptism, water baptism is a symbol of what has transpired spiritually called “born again,”:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace..” (Ephesians 1:7)

“Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” (Romans 10:9-10) 

“And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”(Acts 16:31)

“Jesus.. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

I still advocate baptism by water and by the Spirit (Acts 19:1-14) and believe you should get baptized. But it is faith in Jesus that saves. 

There is the verse, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16). But the second part of that verse stresses belief, that not believing equals condemnation (John 3:18). 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Solus Christus

[Dead Orthodoxy]

24 minutes ago, Solus Christus said:

water baptism is a symbol o

Where do you get the idea baptism is a symbol?  Chapter and verse please.

The Greek word for symbol is symbolia, AND IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.   In otherwords, symbol is NOT A BIBLICAL WORD.  

This is just word salad.   Quit making statements about Scripture you can't back up! 

Lord open the mind of this person and have them not make things up of Scripture that can't be demonstrated.

[BeyondET]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:25 AM, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Time and again this question comes up when the topic of baptism is discussed.  Specifically we see this question under a thread title such as "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

For me, the question doesn't make sense at all.  I find the possibility of the thief being baptized as an impossibility.

1.  Christian baptism was instituted by the command of Christ AFTER the resurrection but BEFORE the ascension per Matthew 28:18f.

2.  The first Christian baptisms occurred on the Day of Pentecost some 53 days after the thief was executed.

3.  To ask the question of baptism..."But what about the thief on the Cross?" is as relevant as asking if King David or Saul was baptized.  Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

4. It is possible the disciples didn't know they were to baptize "all nations" until Jesus taught them in one of his post-resurrection appearances.

What was John the Baptist doing? if there was no Christian baptism. He was before the death of the thief.

[Dead Orthodoxy]

37 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

What was John the Baptist doing? if there was no Christian baptism. He was before the death of the thief.

John's baptism is not Christian baptism.

Christian baptism contains at least three elements 1)the water, 2) the Triune formula, and 3) another Christian baptizing you.  In Acts 19, John's disciples were baptized by him but did not know who the Holy Spirit was.  John didn't use the triune formula for it contains the wording of the Holy Spirit.  In fact, we don't know if John used any formula during baptism.

Paul then orders them to be baptized with  Christian baptism.  Acts 19 is included in the NT writings in part to answer the question "What about John's disicples?"  Did they have a valid baptism?  The answer is "no."

All of John's disciples had to undergo Christian baptism as instituted by Christ.

 

[BeyondET]

34 minutes ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

John's baptism is not Christian baptism.

Christian baptism contains at least three elements 1)the water, 2) the Triune formula, and 3) another Christian baptizing you.  In Acts 19, John's disciples were baptized by him but did not know who the Holy Spirit was.  John didn't use the triune formula for it contains the wording of the Holy Spirit.  In fact, we don't know if John used any formula during baptism.

Paul then orders them to be baptized with  Christian baptism.  Acts 19 is included in the NT writings in part to answer the question "What about John's disicples?"  Did they have a valid baptism?  The answer is "no."

All of John's disciples had to undergo Christian baptism as instituted by Christ.

 

The baptism of Jesus was a Christian baptism by John the Baptist.

Elijah came for a reason to baptize, it definitely wasn't invalid.

Edited August 3, 2023 by BeyondET