Nearly half of Jews don't believe in Messiah

[R. Hartono]

https://allisrael.com/giving-up-on-messiah-shocking-new-survey-finds-nearly-half-of-israeli-jews-don-t-believe-messiah-will-ever-really-come-to-earth

[FJK]

About half of those calling themselves Christians don't really believe in the Messiah -Divine Jesus- either.

[choir loft]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:21 AM, FJK said:

About half of those calling themselves Christians don't really believe in the Messiah -Divine Jesus- either.

The actual statistics as to who does or doesn't believe the man Jesus IS the Jewish messiah are available.  Certainly a very high percentage of both Jews and church types contribute to the negative numbers.

Jews generally DO look forward to the coming of Messiah, but that anticipation is qualified by the Orthodox Rabbinate which in turn defines who might or might not qualify as their candidate for the office.   Since they illegally rejected Jesus, who DID qualify according to the LAW OF MOSES they don't have a  legal leg to stand on.   They reject Jesus anyway since their authority is accepted.

(Oddly, Orthodox rabbinate's rejection of Jesus as messiah has been subject to a certain degree of erosion in recent years.  Thinking Jews are beginning to realize Orthodox rejection of Jesus has something wrong with it - legally as well as logically.)

More than half of denominational churches DO NOT accept the Bible as the Word of God.   These are; Episcopal (and the British component called the Anglican church), Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists.   The Roman Catholic church sits on the fence, as it were, where it's been sitting for two millennia.  

The United Methodist Church has in recent years adopted a procedure by which member churches can 'disassociate' themselves from the Methodist union.  Unfortunately the procedure is long, expensive and rather complex.  People who are disappointed with the UMC simply leave it and go elsewhere. 

As of this writing an archBishop of the Anglican church has stated the Lord's prayer is problematic because it refers to God as 'Father' and ought not be used in its present context.  In other words, they are rather confused about the gender of God as stated in Holy Writ.  They prefer to yield to politically correct views.

We live in confusing times when definitions of familiar words and terms are thrust upon all those who desire above all else to maintain their dedication to Christ.

I believe that discipleship REQUIRES study and implementation of Mosaic LAW in the lives of believers.   Non-Jews aren't required to abide by certain aspects of the LAW, but are indeed well advised to consider its spiritual and moral aspects as it pertains to their personal journey.

The FACT that God's LAW doesn't change and hasn't been abolished should provide solace and a firm foundation upon which to base one's religion.   Political correctness is the shifting sand Jesus warned us about.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited July 11, 2023 by choir loft

[Vine Abider]

51 minutes ago, choir loft said:

More than half of denominational churches DO NOT accept the Bible as the Word of God.   These are; Episcopal (and the British component called the Anglican church), Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists.   The Roman Catholic church sits on the fence, as it were, where it's been sitting for two millennia.  

If that is the case with these denominations, that is astounding!  Do you have a good source for that information you can share?

[Neighbor]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:14 AM, R. Hartono said:

https://allisrael.com/giving-up-on-messiah-shocking-new-survey-finds-nearly-half-of-israeli-jews-don-t-believe-messiah-will-ever-really-come-to-earth

On reading the article,  I do wish they had actually included at least a sampling of the questions.

To say one has sampled 1200 people of which 200 were deliberately selected from one age group, and reached an accuracy probability that they are only 95% confident in, with a 2.85 % margin of error on top of that then declare that  is accurate enough to represent the mindset(s) of 3.5 million people ....  I would not bet the farm on the results.

I used to be surveyed on  very regular interval by Pew research. Very often finding need to force fit that proverbial square  peg in a round hole, as none of the choices fit. Then I simply guess I reached an age that just doesn't matter what I think,  far as surveys go.

 

[FJK]

25 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

On reading the article,  I do wish they had actually included at least a sampling of the questions.

To say one has sampled 1200 people of which 200 were deliberately selected from one age group, and reached an accuracy probability that they are only 95% confident in, with a 2.85 % margin of error on top of that then declare that  is accurate enough to represent the mindset(s) of 3.5 million people ....  I would not bet the farm on the results.

I used to be surveyed on  very regular interval by Pew research. Very often finding need to force fit that proverbial square  peg in a round hole, as none of the choices fit. Then I simply guess I reached an age that just doesn't matter what I think,  far as surveys go.

 

That's a problem with survey's of all kinds, researcher influence according to their own biases and intentions either unknowingly or by design.

A "seek and ye shall find" sort of thing.  We usually find what we are looking for and not what we are not looking for.

Usually, I try to compare survey and poll results with what I see in the real world around me to judge -at least roughly- its credibility.

This survey does seem to mostly match up with the world I live in, and is compatible with the Biblical prophecies of false doctrine that the Church will practice in the latter days.

[JimmyB]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:21 AM, FJK said:

About half of those calling themselves Christians don't really believe in the Messiah -Divine Jesus- either.

And you know this how?

[JimmyB]

4 hours ago, choir loft said:

The actual statistics as to who does or doesn't believe the man Jesus IS the Jewish messiah are available.  Certainly a very high percentage of both Jews and church types contribute to the negative numbers.

Jews generally DO look forward to the coming of Messiah, but that anticipation is qualified by the Orthodox Rabbinate which in turn defines who might or might not qualify as their candidate for the office.   Since they illegally rejected Jesus, who DID qualify according to the LAW OF MOSES they don't have a  legal leg to stand on.   They reject Jesus anyway since their authority is accepted.

(Oddly, Orthodox rabbinate's rejection of Jesus as messiah has been subject to a certain degree of erosion in recent years.  Thinking Jews are beginning to realize Orthodox rejection of Jesus has something wrong with it - legally as well as logically.)

More than half of denominational churches DO NOT accept the Bible as the Word of God.   These are; Episcopal (and the British component called the Anglican church), Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists.   The Roman Catholic church sits on the fence, as it were, where it's been sitting for two millennia.  

The United Methodist Church has in recent years adopted a procedure by which member churches can 'disassociate' themselves from the Methodist union.  Unfortunately the procedure is long, expensive and rather complex.  People who are disappointed with the UMC simply leave it and go elsewhere. 

As of this writing an archBishop of the Anglican church has stated the Lord's prayer is problematic because it refers to God as 'Father' and ought not be used in its present context.  In other words, they are rather confused about the gender of God as stated in Holy Writ.  They prefer to yield to politically correct views.

We live in confusing times when definitions of familiar words and terms are thrust upon all those who desire above all else to maintain their dedication to Christ.

I believe that discipleship REQUIRES study and implementation of Mosaic LAW in the lives of believers.   Non-Jews aren't required to abide by certain aspects of the LAW, but are indeed well advised to consider its spiritual and moral aspects as it pertains to their personal journey.

The FACT that God's LAW doesn't change and hasn't been abolished should provide solace and a firm foundation upon which to base one's religion.   Political correctness is the shifting sand Jesus warned us about.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

How do you know that more than half of denominational churches DO NOT accept the Bible as the Word of God.  Have you done a verifiable survey?

"As of this writing an archBishop of the Anglican church has stated the Lord's prayer is problematic because it refers to God as 'Father' and ought not be used in its present context.  In other words, they are rather confused about the gender of God as stated in Holy Writ.  They prefer to yield to politically correct views."  This is absurd.  Do you really think that the Anglican church cares about being politically correct?  LOLO!

If you are a Christian, i.e., born of the Spirit, you are not under the law.  Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."  So when you write "I believe that discipleship REQUIRES study and implementation of Mosaic LAW in the lives of believers" your belief is not founded on God's truth.

Stop hollering until you verify and/or correct your statements!

[choir loft]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:02 PM, JimmyB said:

How do you know that more than half of denominational churches DO NOT accept the Bible as the Word of God.  Have you done a verifiable survey?

"As of this writing an archBishop of the Anglican church has stated the Lord's prayer is problematic because it refers to God as 'Father' and ought not be used in its present context.  In other words, they are rather confused about the gender of God as stated in Holy Writ.  They prefer to yield to politically correct views."  This is absurd.  Do you really think that the Anglican church cares about being politically correct?  LOLO!

If you are a Christian, i.e., born of the Spirit, you are not under the law.  Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."  So when you write "I believe that discipleship REQUIRES study and implementation of Mosaic LAW in the lives of believers" your belief is not founded on God's truth.

Stop hollering until you verify and/or correct your statements!

You will not acknowledge verification of any fact stated here.  Providing more would simply be a waste of my time, like leading a horse to water it won't drink.  

I spent twenty-five years in the Episcopal church and can testify that they DO NOT accept as an axiom that one must be saved in Jesus' name.  They officially deny it.   I was officially told to recant my faith in Christ if I wanted to enter a leadership position there.  THAT'S how bad it is.  The average pew sitter was and is unaware of this sort of betrayal.  Even when told they refuse to believe it - as you do now.

Not only are they confused about the gender of the Almighty AS STATED IN SCRIPTURE, they deny the deity of Christ ALSO STATED IN SCRIPTURE.   For them its just a financial franchise and was so stated to me by several high official of the church some years ago.  "Why can't you understand it's just a job," they told me.   So I guess I can't understand.  It ISN'T just a job to me.

I am acquainted with men who have testified as to the OFFICIAL position of the Lutheran and Presbyterian church that the Bible is NOT THE Word of God, but is only A work of common literature.

I have been monitoring the decline of the Methodist church for nearly fifty years and can accurately and truthfully testify that because of the insinuation of the Gay Authority into the leadership of that church those members of UMC who still have a conscience are either leaving the UMC or exiting the church entirely. 

Denial of fact doesn't discredit them as true.

I suspect the condition of the church is far worse than even I assume.

Your misquote of Romans is typical of those who don't know the LAW nor understand the work of GRACE under LAW in the life of the believer.  Both work together.  The LAW has NOT been abolished (Matt 5:17) and GRACE doesn't stand alone without the LAW.  

NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

This is called the gospel and its been betrayed by leaders who don't teach it because they don't understand it themselves.  

When I reveal these circumstances many persons become severely agitated and deny everything - but with the absolute inability to provide contrary proofs otherwise (mostly because such proof doesn't exist).   Parroting snippets of scripture as buzz words and religious slogans won't 'fix' anything either because those that quote them don't know what they mean anyway.  This is why the church is considered to be a joke among the unchurched - Biblical illiteracy and theological ignorance reign supreme.

If a survey is what you seek I suggest PEW or Gallup as a source.  Then again I seriously doubt you will entertain the effort as you are convinced of your own incredulity and ignorance.

If ignorance is bliss, then a lot of church types are very happy people.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by choir loft

[JimmyB]

8 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You will not acknowledge verification of any fact stated here.  Providing more would simply be a waste of my time, like leading a horse to water it won't drink.  

I spent twenty-five years in the Episcopal church and can testify that they DO NOT accept as an axiom that one must be saved in Jesus' name.  They officially deny it.   I was officially told to recant my faith in Christ if I wanted to enter a leadership position there.  THAT'S how bad it is.  The average pew sitter was and is unaware of this sort of betrayal.  Even when told they refuse to believe it - as you do now.

Not only are they confused about the gender of the Almighty AS STATED IN SCRIPTURE, they deny the deity of Christ ALSO STATED IN SCRIPTURE.   For them its just a financial franchise and was so stated to me by several high official of the church some years ago.  "Why can't you understand it's just a job," they told me.   So I guess I can't understand.  It ISN'T just a job to me.

I am acquainted with men who have testified as to the OFFICIAL position of the Lutheran and Presbyterian church that the Bible is NOT THE Word of God, but is only A work of common literature.

I have been monitoring the decline of the Methodist church for nearly fifty years and can accurately and truthfully testify that because of the insinuation of the Gay Authority into the leadership of that church those members of UMC who still have a conscience are either leaving the UMC or exiting the church entirely. 

Denial of fact doesn't discredit them as true.

Episcopal church

Your misquote of Romans is typical of those who don't know the LAW nor understand the work of GRACE under LAW in the life of the believer.  Both work together.  The LAW has NOT been abolished (Matt 5:17) and GRACE doesn't stand alone without the LAW.  

NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

This is called the gospel and its been betrayed by leaders who don't teach it because they don't understand it themselves.  

When I reveal these circumstances many persons become severely agitated and deny everything - but with the absolute inability to provide contrary proofs otherwise (mostly because such proof doesn't exist).   Parroting snippets of scripture as buzz words and religious slogans won't 'fix' anything either because those that quote them don't know what they mean anyway.  This is why the church is considered to be a joke among the unchurched - Biblical illiteracy and theological ignorance reign supreme.

If a survey is what you seek I suggest PEW or Gallup as a source.  Then again I seriously doubt you will entertain the effort as you are convinced of your own incredulity and ignorance.

If ignorance is bliss, then a lot of church types are very happy people.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

I am really sorry that you feel the way that you do.  You had a bad experience with Episcopal church and you extend that way beyond the situation, claiming that church leaders don't understand the gospel.  My experience with the churches I have attended (and in which I served as an elder) is just the opposite.  I have never attended a church that didn't trust in and adhere to the Bible.  If I did, I would have left immediately.  If you were so unhappy, why did you remain?  

Secondly, you wrote "Your misquote of Romans is typical of those who don't know the LAW nor understand the work of GRACE under LAW in the life of the believer.  Both work together.  The LAW has NOT been abolished (Matt 5:17) and GRACE doesn't stand alone without the LAW.  NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW." 

a) I won't respond to the personal attack!

b) You need to read the Bible -- with understanding!  You are misinterpreting Romans and trying to put Christians under the law, thereby deny the purpose of Christ's sacrifice.

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

It is you who doesn't understand the LAW nor understand the work of GRACE in the life of the believer.  Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing."  

This is called the gospel and it has not been betrayed by leaders who understand it.  Anything to the contrary is false teaching!  When you reveal the circumstances you believe in, many persons become severely agitated and deny everything you say.  Gee, I wonder why?  Perhaps because they read and understand what the Bible clearly says!

Clearly, you are judging the body of Christ when you write "Parroting snippets of scripture as buzz words and religious slogans won't 'fix' anything either because those that quote them don't know what they mean anyway.  This is why the church is considered to be a joke among the unchurched - Biblical illiteracy and theological ignorance reign supreme", you are condemning those whom Christ died for.

Overseers, please note choir loft's personally insulting comment "Then again I seriously doubt you will entertain the effort as you are convinced of your own incredulity and ignorance."