Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[AdHoc]

@JimmyB @Vine Abider

I have followed the exchange with interest. I think the dilemma has merit. How did Eve succumb to temptation if she did not have the sin-nature? But equally, if we believe that God made Adam (and Eve who was IN Adam) with a sin nature, we attribute sin to God (perish the thought). The answer lies, I believe, in the offerings.

You might have noticed that until the Law of Moses was given, the prevailing offering is the burnt offering - not the sin offering. There are five main offerings and their order is crucial. (i) Burnt Offering, (ii) Meal Offering, (iii) Peace offering, (iv) Sin Offering and (v) Trespass Offering. I've no doubt that if the order were left to us, we would reverse them. Our experience is that we sin (or trespass) because we have the "sin-nature" and this destroys our peace with God. the result of these three is because we have a fallen humanity and this fallen humanity is is not fully for God.

But for God the problem lies in reverse. And here we get an inkling of Eve's problem BEFORE the fall. She was not fully for God. No sin had yet been committed, but Eve looked at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and desired it more than God. If you read through the whole Bible you will see that the three things that tempted Eve are LEGITIMATE things. To eat when hungry is legitimate. To desire a beautiful thing is legitimate (see Song of Songs). To be made wise is suggested by God Himself. The question though is, WHAT IS MY SOURCE?

Shall I be beholden to Jehovah, or shall I acquire these things from another source? This is what faced our Lord Jesus in the wilderness. But I Lord refused them at their SOURCE. All three items of the temptation would Jesus later acquire, but at the hand of His FATHER. Eve's decision was not based on a sin-nature any more than our Lord's temptation. Both possessed a sinless nature. But our Lord Jesus, hungry, unrecognized for Who he was, and faced with an horrendous road to gain the kingdoms of this world, said in His heart that he would wait for the Father to give them, whereas Eve did not care to put the Father's interests first.

Jesus was fully for the Father. He is the Burnt Offering. Eve was fully for Eve. And so the problem of the sin-nature is not not traced back to a sin-nature. It is traced back to man's legitimate desires GAINED FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN GOD. Thus, we have, besides the temptation of Eve and Christ, the admonition that if we love the world (and all that is in it), the love of God cannot be in us. Notice the grammar in 1st John 2;

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

It does not say that God does not love him. It says that he does not love the Father. Satan's job was to convince Eve that God was withholding legitimate things. This he accomplished with Eve, but not with our Lord Jesus.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@JimmyB @Vine Abider

I have followed the exchange with interest. I think the dilemma has merit. How did Eve succumb to temptation if she did not have the sin-nature? But equally, if we believe that God made Adam (and Eve who was IN Adam) with a sin nature, we attribute sin to God (perish the thought). The answer lies, I believe, in the offerings.

You might have noticed that until the Law of Moses was given, the prevailing offering is the burnt offering - not the sin offering. There are five main offerings and their order is crucial. (i) Burnt Offering, (ii) Meal Offering, (iii) Peace offering, (iv) Sin Offering and (v) Trespass Offering. I've no doubt that if the order were left to us, we would reverse them. Our experience is that we sin (or trespass) because we have the "sin-nature" and this destroys our peace with God. the result of these three is because we have a fallen humanity and this fallen humanity is is not fully for God.

But for God the problem lies in reverse. And here we get an inkling of Eve's problem BEFORE the fall. She was not fully for God. No sin had yet been committed, but Eve looked at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and desired it more than God. If you read through the whole Bible you will see that the three things that tempted Eve are LEGITIMATE things. To eat when hungry is legitimate. To desire a beautiful thing is legitimate (see Song of Songs). To be made wise is suggested by God Himself. The question though is, WHAT IS MY SOURCE?

Shall I be beholden to Jehovah, or shall I acquire these things from another source? This is what faced our Lord Jesus in the wilderness. But I Lord refused them at their SOURCE. All three items of the temptation would Jesus later acquire, but at the hand of His FATHER. Eve's decision was not based on a sin-nature any more than our Lord's temptation. Both possessed a sinless nature. But our Lord Jesus, hungry, unrecognized for Who he was, and faced with an horrendous road to gain the kingdoms of this world, said in His heart that he would wait for the Father to give them, whereas Eve did not care to put the Father's interests first.

Jesus was fully for the Father. He is the Burnt Offering. Eve was fully for Eve. And so the problem of the sin-nature is not not traced back to a sin-nature. It is traced back to man's legitimate desires GAINED FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN GOD. Thus, we have, besides the temptation of Eve and Christ, the admonition that if we love the world (and all that is in it), the love of God cannot be in us. Notice the grammar in 1st John 2;

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

It does not say that God does not love him. It says that he does not love the Father. Satan's job was to convince Eve that God was withholding legitimate things. This he accomplished with Eve, but not with our Lord Jesus.

@AdHoc You have some amazing insight.

[JimmyB]

14 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When God told them that when you eat from the forbidden fruit you will surely die...

This includes that they were alive towards to him. 

They had not disobeyed him yet and they could not be in the death that came to them by their act of disobedience which came later on. 

God said that they will surely die the moment that they eat from the fruit of the forbidden tree. 

God knew that they will  continued to live after they ate from the forbidden fruit.

So the death God was talking about is not the same as your suggestion that they continued to live that they did not die. 

God told them that they will surely die and they mast have die at that moment. 

Just like the Serpent who one time was alive towards God but when he disobeyed God he continued to live but he died towards God...

The samething with Adam and Eve they continued to live but at the same time were dead towards God and that will show at the time of their physical death...

When they will not gathered to God when someone else will come and take them to the place of the dead...and their heirs will follow them in their due time...

this is the death God was referring to...

Cain was considered dead to God while he was still alive because of his sin to kill his brother Abel. 

But not Adam because God continued to give his fellowship to him while he was still alive and out of the Garden...

to him and to his children God gave his fellowship to them as long as they lived and were in righteousness towards him...

The first man sin and be seperated from God before he died was Cain, who was seperated from God while he still lived because of his sin...he lost the fellowship of God while he still lived.

And like Adam and Abel and all their descendants will be separated from God at the time of their physical death.

Which is telling us that Man is a spiritual being that lives in the physical body as long as the body has life.

That was the death that God spoke about ...the death of the spiritual man that lives in the body. 

As long as Adam or anyone of his descendants abide in righteousness they could have the fellowship of God. 

That fellowship was terminated at the time of their death...at that time they were not gathered to God because they were dead in the Spirit and lived in righteousness. 

They were alive to God because of their righteousness but at the time of their death they were separated from God because of the death they had in their spirit because they inherited that death from their Father Adam...what he had ge gave them.

And they were responsible for their own righteousness. 

that's why Abel a righteous person when he died in righteousness was not gathered to God because God said Abel is not with him.

Abel had died for some time and he asked Cain "where is your brother" because Abel was not with God...

Cain because of his sins lost the fellowship with God "dead to God" while he was still alive...if not he too would continue to have the fellowship of God till the time of his death if he continued to be in righteousness...

That what God told to Noah after he finished building the Ark...you have been found to be a righteous man because he did what God had asked him to do...he was a righteous man when God asked him to build the Ark but he continued to be righteous because of his obedience to finished the Ark..till the end.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.  For example: "So the death God was talking about is not the same as your suggestion that they continued to live that they did not die. God told them that they will surely die and they mast have die at that moment."

If you're dead, you're dead.  If you're alive you're alive.  It's that simple.

Edited June 7, 2023 by JimmyB

[JimmyB]

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

God is addressing the Serpent

(after what it seems the beginning of something...the Serpent befriending the Eve and Eve accepting his friendship)

God is telling him he let that happen and he told the Serpent that he will do something in due time. 

That he will put emnity between one of her children and one of his children...

He said in away that in due time a child born to a woman will have a face off with someone who will be from the Serpent...

The way God said it, it will be a face off between two special seeds ( a reference to special offsprings in the singular form.

One from the woman's side and the other from the Serpent's side.

God said it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel...

* in the last words "his heel" the specific gentre of the "seed" or the child born from the woman is identified as a male child..when the sentence finishes with the words "his heel". .

**the specific words God use were between "her seed"...which is interesting that she woman will be found with a child in her But no mentioning of the Father of the would be born make-child was mentioned...

Adam was present but it seems as if no reference is made to one of the children of Adam...it seems that Adam had nothing to do with this ploy...if not God would have said that I will put enmity between the seed , singular and not plural as later is identified as his head...singular and male...seed. 

The Father was not mentioned...some woman will bring forth a male child ordained for the face off with the seed of the Serpent but the. Identification of the Father was hold back.

This is was said to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem a make child without a genealogy from the Father's side...

A male child to be born to a woman destined to have a face off with the seed of the Serpent who dies not have a Human Father to trace his genealogy from Father to Father...

He was the Son of God and we can read in the prophets about him and the Psalms and in the message of the Anfels even the Archangel Gabriel in the message given to Mary the woman chosen to be his mother...

That it was God who made that possible to have the birth of a new Adam from a woman...a man who is not the seed or had his life from any man.

No man's sperm took part and yet life was life was detect and began to grow and form in the egg in the womb of the  woman. 

This is about the miraculous birth of Jesus Christ...who was born having the life of God in him...

Jesus said "I am the Life" No one comes to the Father only through me...telling the people the Life he has is the same Life as God...

And that God will open the way to himself through him...this is Jesus Christ...

That the way to the Father is at hand...

Not Father Abraham that what the people had at that time...but the way to the Heavenly Father in Heaven..

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.  For example, "That it was God who made that possible to have the birth of a new Adam from a woman...a man who is not the seed or had his life from any man.

No man's sperm took part and yet life was life was detect and began to grow and form in the egg in the womb of the  woman."

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I think it is significant what is said to Adam and Eve in blessing them in union of two in one flesh.

27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing <02416> that moveth upon the earth.

Subdue, have dominion, over every living thing<02416> that moveth.

Every living thing there is <02416> and the serpent is an living thing, beast is a translation?

Ge 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast <02416>  of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
 

The blessing then speaks concerning their multiplying and fruitfulness subduing, bringing to bandage, ruling, reigning, over the serpent himself.

03533 כבשׁ kabash kaw-bash’

AV-subdue 8, bring into subjection 3, bring into bondage 2, keep under 1, force 1; 15

07287 רדה radah raw-daw’

AV-rule 13, dominion 9, take 2, prevaileth 1, reign 1, ruler 1; 27

Re 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 have no idea hat you're trying to say either.

[JimmyB]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

In your first paragraph you wrote 

"I think it is significant what is said to Adam and Eve in blessing them in union of two in one flesh."

* to be fair to Adam and Eve I do not think so that they understood what God was telling them at that time as they were quite innocent at the beginning. 

In the next chapter God is telling us how he Created them...

God created only Adam and at a later time he made Eve out of Adam...

At the beginning were one and later he made Eve from Adam and the two were one flesh...or the same flesh...Adam said a bone from my bone and flesh from my flesh and he called her a woman because out of man she was made...

They were in their unique flesh seperated from all other flesh around them the animal and the bird and the other flesh of different kinds around them...

Also made them one flesh may apply that their children are from both of them their flesh united in their children...

And God bless them in such a way telling them and not only to them but also to us..to all of us that we will not be extinct from the earth that will multiply against all the odds and occupied the earth...that God will not change his mind and destroy all the human race. 

God also let us know that the way he made things it will never happen that some animal from the animal kingdom will be raised up and take man to their captivity. No that will never happen man will be all the time in control in spite of his size...it does not mean that some animals will never attack them but that will never rule over man ...man is the one to rule over them and take them to captivity and use them as his helpers as with the donkyes or other farm animals.

Man can kill the animals for his needs and not to feel quilty and that God will seek them out to imposed punishment upon them...

Another thing it is that man should know that at a later times as when the people were slaves to the Egyptians because they were a new nation just began to grow.  While in Egypt...and they look at the God's of Egypt with the combination of Humans and animals to be able to know that their God is non of them because God made man in his image...

About the suggestion about the Serpent, I do not think that he was included...by looking in the definition of the Serpent the Devil and realized that they cannot be included...I do not think that we can be seen as a literal Serpent. 

A serpent and only thar just like another addition to the reptile. Kingdom. 

We can notice that God made clear that was working on doing something with Man as to saved man from his fallen state...but he promised that he will never do anything like for the fallen Serpent by saying while things will change for Man in due time but that will never happen to the Serpent that he will eat dust forever.more. 

 

Say what?  What are you trying to say?

[JimmyB]

15 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Ge 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
If They were one flesh in multiplying and fruit, Her seed here is also his. 

a) Humans don't produce seeds.  Plants produce seeds.

b) What does your last sentence mean?

[JohnR7]

On 6/4/2023 at 7:29 PM, Marilyn C said:

You are telling me that a man, Watchman Nee has said that the Body of Christ, the new man, will change into a woman, the bride.

I am pointing out that God says who He is `married` to - Israel. 

Who is the friend of the bridegroom in John 3 29?

 

[JohnR7]

31 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

No man's sperm took part and yet life was life was detect and began to grow and form in the egg in the womb of the  woman."

I have often said I would like to see the first conversation between Eve and Mary. In Genesis 3:16 this is clearly a reference to Jesus and we have the genealogies from Eve to Jesus in what they call the "scarlet thread" or the bloodline. 

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”( Genesis 3:16)

Just as Sarah was a sister and a wife to Abraham. If Eve came from Adam she would be like a sister because they would share the same M-DNA. Unlike nuclear DNA, which comes from both parents, mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother.

If I remember it is 15 generations from Eve to David and 15 generations from David to Jesus. 

 

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, JimmyB said:

I don't see any other possibility.  More accurately, I think God gave Adam and Eve the ability to sin, i.e., free will.

Now that (free will) I can go with - the ability to sin, but not sin itself. Otherwise, it would have God creating something already corrupted and off the mark.