Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[NConly]

On 6/8/2023 at 9:15 AM, JimmyB said:

What language is this? "publick", "privily", "divorcement"?

KJV Bible mine reads the same.

[farouk]

If someone has already decided to ignore the strengths of the King James, then some of the archaic spellings are likely to become a matter of attempts at ridicule, I suppose.

[farouk]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

My software says it is AV. 

I had to go back and look at it because I thought I might have somehow done something. So I looked before I answered you. I never noticed it before. I think it is a unique software, I down loaded years ago, from a British university. I know that contact info, is Ontario Canada. 

@Anne2 One often sees King James spellings also in concordances and commentaries, etc.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:48 PM, Vine Abider said:

According to Romans 16:20, under whose feet will Satan be crushed by God? (also to @Your closest friendnt)

Romans 16:20  

English Standard Version
20. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Greetings @Vine Abider

In v.20 it says "under your feet". 

We also know that this epistle is to the believers Paul was associated with and who were ministers of the Gospel and were fervent believers and had problems with the leaders of the city and perhaps the Jews in that city and they also had big problems with the religious leaders in that City, the City  of Rome...and Paul said that to them because he understood that Satan was behind all the troubles and the opposition they were experiencing...and that was that Paul understood that Satan was working through those people....who suffered lost of revenue because when the former Idolaters believed the religious group of the Idolaters suffered financial losses.  

Paul was telling them that this problem is common everywhere the Gospel is preached and people believe...because also after they believed they were trying to convince others to leave the Idols and follow Jesus Christ... 

Paul is telling them to be strong in the faith till the end no matter what...this way the Devil will fail to make you deny Jesus and by being strong and persevering in the faith with the help and empowered in your heart by the Holy Spirit from God you will overcome all the trials that are ahead of you...and you are not alone and with the help of God...you will be faithful to Jesus Christ...

All the attempts of the Devil will failed...this is it the Devil failed you have crushed him under your feet... 

 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

My software says it is AV. 

I had to go back and look at it because I thought I might have somehow done something. So I looked before I answered you. I never noticed it before. I think it is a unique software, I down loaded years ago, from a British university. I know that contact info, is Ontario Canada. 

Shalom, Anne2 and everyone interested, particularly any who think the KJV is not for today.

Actually, the AV (Authorized Version) is the same as the KJV (King James Version). Technically, it is the "King James Authorized Version of the Bible." It was the ONE version that was authorized by the head of the Anglican Church, the king - King James I of England. It was commissioned in 1604 A.D. and was finally finished and its first edition was printed in 1611 A.D. It went through subsequent editions after that.

The King James Version of the Bible was written when English was at its height, very close to the time when Shakespeare wrote his plays and works for the Globe.

The English language has degenerated since then into what we have today, both in England and what was once called the British Empire and here in the United States of America and its territories.

While our vocabulary has greatly increased because of modern inventions and innovations, much of our language has simplified, becoming less descriptive. We no longer use the singular form of the 2nd-person pronoun, using the plural form for both the 2nd-person singular and plural. We no longer change our verbs to coincide with the change in person or the change in case.

Second Person pronouns:

Singular number:
Subjective: thou (shalt)
Objective: thee
Possessive: thy
Possessive noun: thine

Plural number:
Subjective: ye (shall)
Objective: you
Possessive: your
Possessive noun: yours

I was tickled a long time ago when a child about 10 was trying to learn the KJV memory verse, Isaiah 26:3:

Isaiah 26:3 (KJV)

3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

He was stumbling over the words because they were in the King's English, and not in American English.

Back then, I was never taught what the difference between "Thou" and "Ye" was or how "Thou" differed from "thee." We just learned HOW to use them, without knowing WHY we used them. We just assumed they were some kind of "holy words" that had to be used because they were found in the Ten Commandments! It wasn't until I was in my high school days and had received a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that I could investigate the differences.

I was always a nerd and ENJOYED reading the dictionary and the encyclopedia set we had, stored on the bottom shelf of my bookshelves. Being "sent to my room" as punishment NEVER had the desired effect!

When I got my Strong's Concordance, I could actually look up all the verses that contained "thee," or all the verses that contained "thou." I could see which words were put in the plural, and which ones had no plural form. By simply looking up each of the verses and checking each's context, I was able to ascertain that the "thee's" and "thou's" were singular, while the "ye's" and "you's" were plural. Then, I went to a library and looked up the terms in the Oxford English Dictionary and confirmed my suspicions. THAT was how I learned what each word meant.

Later, when I was learning Greek, I could further verify my understanding by seeing the difference in the Greek: In Greek, su, sou, soi, and se are all singular, 2nd person pronouns. The plural, 2nd person pronouns are humeis, humas, humoon, and humin.

Modern English translations have lost this information. Now, when we read "you shall ...," we don't know whether one is talking to one person or two-or-more! Hopefully, the context will reveal the missing information, but sometimes the context RELIES upon the information lost! Then, unless one has the ability to check the Greek (or the Hebrew for the OT), then the context may be garbled!

Just something to think about.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Retrobyter
to address all

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, farouk said:

If someone has already decided to ignore the strengths of the King James, then some of the archaic spellings are likely to become a matter of attempts at ridicule, I suppose.

Shalom, farouk.

Right! One should NEVER lose sight of the fact that, for over 400 years, God USED the KJV almost exclusively among the English-speaking people, particularly here among the growing "Colonies." During the years of the development of the United States of America, it was the GLUE that held our nation together and gave it the character that allowed us to be called "a nation under God."

It was the version through which I was introduced to my God and His Messiah! It was by the truth of God's Word through which I was "saved" ("justified by God"). That's nothing to pooh-pooh! And, if one is honest, even if that person wasn't introduced to the Lord through the KJV, those who led him or her to the Lord probably were!

[Michael37]

As much as I'm enjoying the discussion about the KJV, I would like to remind everyone that the OP pertains to the following passage from Watchman Nee's book "The Glorious Church".

Link: EVE CAME OUT OF ADAM (ministrysamples.org)

"All the beasts of the field, the cattle, and the birds of the air were made of earth. They were not taken out of Adam; therefore, they could not be the help meet to Adam. We must remember that Eve was formed out of a rib taken from Adam; therefore, Eve was the constituent of Adam. This means that the church comes out of Christ. Only that which is out of Christ can be the church. Anything that is not of Christ is not the church."

Carry on.

[JimmyB]

7 hours ago, farouk said:

If someone has already decided to ignore the strengths of the King James, then some of the archaic spellings are likely to become a matter of attempts at ridicule, I suppose.

If someone has already decided to believe that the King James is the only worthwhile translation, then some of the archaic spellings are likely to become a matter of attempts at proof of authenticity, I suppose.

[JimmyB]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Anne2 and everyone interested, particularly any who think the KJV is not for today.

Actually, the AV (Authorized Version) is the same as the KJV (King James Version). Technically, it is the "King James Authorized Version of the Bible." It was the ONE version that was authorized by the head of the Anglican Church, the king - King James I of England. It was commissioned in 1604 A.D. and was finally finished and its first edition was printed in 1611 A.D. It went through subsequent editions after that.

The King James Version of the Bible was written when English was at its height, very close to the time when Shakespeare wrote his plays and works for the Globe.

The English language has degenerated since then into what we have today, both in England and what was once called the British Empire and here in the United States of America and its territories.

While our vocabulary has greatly increased because of modern inventions and innovations, much of our language has simplified, becoming less descriptive. We no longer use the singular form of the 2nd-person pronoun, using the plural form for both the 2nd-person singular and plural. We no longer change our verbs to coincide with the change in person or the change in case.

Second Person pronouns:

Singular number:
Subjective: thou (shalt)
Objective: thee
Possessive: thy
Possessive noun: thine

Plural number:
Subjective: ye (shall)
Objective: you
Possessive: your
Possessive noun: yours

I was tickled a long time ago when a child about 10 was trying to learn the KJV memory verse, Isaiah 26:3:

Isaiah 26:3 (KJV)

3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

He was stumbling over the words because they were in the King's English, and not in American English.

Back then, I was never taught what the difference between "Thou" and "Ye" was or how "Thou" differed from "thee." We just learned HOW to use them, without knowing WHY we used them. We just assumed they were some kind of "holy words" that had to be used because they were found in the Ten Commandments! It wasn't until I was in my high school days and had received a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that I could investigate the differences.

I was always a nerd and ENJOYED reading the dictionary and the encyclopedia set we had, stored on the bottom shelf of my bookshelves. Being "sent to my room" as punishment NEVER had the desired effect!

When I got my Strong's Concordance, I could actually look up all the verses that contained "thee," or all the verses that contained "thou." I could see which words were put in the plural, and which ones had no plural form. By simply looking up each of the verses and checking each's context, I was able to ascertain that the "thee's" and "thou's" were singular, while the "ye's" and "you's" were plural. Then, I went to a library and looked up the terms in the Oxford English Dictionary and confirmed my suspicions. THAT was how I learned what each word meant.

Later, when I was learning Greek, I could further verify my understanding by seeing the difference in the Greek: In Greek, su, sou, soi, and se are all singular, 2nd person pronouns. The plural, 2nd person pronouns are humeis, humas, humoon, and humin.

Modern English translations have lost this information. Now, when we read "you shall ...," we don't know whether one is talking to one person or two-or-more! Hopefully, the context will reveal the missing information, but sometimes the context RELIES upon the information lost! Then, unless one has the ability to check the Greek (or the Hebrew for the OT), then the context may be garbled!

Just something to think about.

Claiming that the King James Version of the Bible was written when English was at its height is simply a matter of personal opinion.  The English language has not degenerated since then into what we have today. 

If you're making the false claim that it is somehow better than modern English,  forsooth, why doest thou now writeth in archaic Englyshe?  Why do you prefer to communicate in an inferior language?

Edited June 10, 2023 by JimmyB

[JimmyB]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, farouk.

Right! One should NEVER lose sight of the fact that, for over 400 years, God USED the KJV almost exclusively among the English-speaking people, particularly here among the growing "Colonies." During the years of the development of the United States of America, it was the GLUE that held our nation together and gave it the character that allowed us to be called "a nation under God."

It was the version through which I was introduced to my God and His Messiah! It was by the truth of God's Word through which I was "saved" ("justified by God"). That's nothing to pooh-pooh! And, if one is honest, even if that person wasn't introduced to the Lord through the KJV, those who led him or her to the Lord probably were!

So, at last, the truth comes out!  

The KJV was created as the authoritative version -- because of the authority of a secular king!  He wanted to cement his personal authority as the Protestant ruler, and in the process removing the sidenotes of the Geneva Bible which dared to shed an unfavorable light on his "God-given" power.  Under the threat of persecution, many fled elsewhere, including this continent, with their Geneva Bibles under their arms.  Simply put the KJV is a political translation (unlike the excellent modern translations available today).

Your statement that "During the years of the development of the United States of America, it was the GLUE that held our nation together and gave it the character that allowed us to be called "a nation under God" is nothing but propaganda.  It has no basis in fact!  In fact, many of the authors of the Declaration of Independence and framers of the Constitution were deists.  There is a very good reason that they included freedom of religion in the First Amendment!

The reason for your opinion is summed up in your writing "It was the version through which I was introduced to my God and His Messiah! It was by the truth of God's Word through which I was "saved".  But that is not the basis for objective truth.

The truth is that the KJV is just one of many English translations and, in my opinion, clearly not the best.