This One Thing Will Make You Believe in Noah’s Flood

[ChristB4us]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I asked a simple question.  Nothing in Genesis 1 addresses it.

I'm not asking for any assumptions, but a rational reason for WHY God would create the universe with clearly an APPARENT AGE, which is much older than a mere 6,000 years.  And there isn't a rational or reasonable explanation, is there.

You are making the assumption that I am making one about "daughter particles" and "parent particles", which is SILLY.  I make NO assumptions.  I take the meaning of the key words in Gen 1:2 the SAME WAY they are translated elsewhere in the OT, so that Gen 1:1 is a complete creation of EVERYTHING, the universe and earth.  BUT, the earth BECAME a WASTELAND and uninhabitable, so God restored it for man's use.

Assumption only.

Except even YOU YOURSELF won't how the several key words in v.2 are translated elsewhere in the OT.  I make no assumptions.  I found out how the words in v.2 are translated elsewhere and use THOSE translations in v.2 to understand that the earth became a wasteland and therefore, God had to restore it for man's use.

This is supported in the NT in Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

The Greek word for "formed" is 'katartizo' and is used for mending of the disciples nets in the gospels, actually translated "restored" in Gal 6:1 and other verses and the lexicon definition is:  adjust to fit, mend, repair, etc.

Here is a summary of the glaring problems with a young earth.

1.  The key words in v.2 were translated differently than elsewhere in the OT.

2.  The translation of "tohu" (formless) is illogical, since EVERY object HAS form.  And there is nothing in Gen 1 that addresses creation of "form" to a formless object.

3.  If the traditional translation of v.1-2 is correct, then there is a glaring contradiction with Isa 45:18.

v.1-2  "God created the earth tohu."

Isa 45:18  "God did not create the earth tohu."

I guess the YEC simply pick which one to believe and ignore the other verse.

4.  There are many scientific ways to measure age of the universe, and NONE of them come up with the mere 6,000 years.  And earth age was being calculated WAY BEFORE Darwin came up with his wacky and stupid evolution theory.

5.  An old earth does NOT require evolution in any way.  

May I ask why there is an age to Adam & Eve?

May I ask why there is an age to plant life as created mature and bearing seeds and fruits?

May I ask why you cannot use that premise for why the earth may have an apparent age to it?

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

May I ask why there is an age to Adam & Eve?

Sure you may ask.  The answer is that God gave us their age when they died.  The question that arises, though, is this:  was their age from the moment of their creation or from when they rebelled and died spiritually.  It is very possible that they remained sinless for quite some time (years) before they rebelled. 

3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

May I ask why there is an age to plant life as created mature and bearing seeds and fruits?

Again, for FUNCTION.  Just as it would have been very irrational of God to create a newborn human, it would have been just as irrational to create plant life that wasn't mature and bearing fruit for the humans to eat and sustain themselves.

3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

May I ask why you cannot use that premise for why the earth may have an apparent age to it?

What "premise"?  The whole point of creating mature man and plants is for FUNCTION.  There is NO REASON for God to create the universe with apparent age that the universe doesn't have.

iow, there is no functional reason to create a universe for function.  The universe exists, but does not "function".

That's the whole difference.

Now, may I ask why you continue to dodge my question?

Instead of providing an explanation, you created 3 more questions.

Edited June 16, 2023 by FreeGrace

[ChristB4us]

16 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure you may ask.  The answer is that God gave us their age when they died.  The question that arises, though, is this:  was their age from the moment of their creation or from when they rebelled and died spiritually.  It is very possible that they remained sinless for quite some time (years) before they rebelled. 

Not when He gave them the commandment to go forth & multiply on that sixth day.

Had to be soon after that day of rest.  Did He take off from the Garden of Eden in that day of rest?  Man fell on the first day of the next week after creation?  It would explain why the Lord had risen on the first day of the week, but when we see Him face to face, we shall know for sure then.

Quote

Again, for FUNCTION.  Just as it would have been very irrational of God to create a newborn human, it would have been just as irrational to create plant life that wasn't mature and bearing fruit for the humans to eat and sustain themselves.

What "premise"?  The whole point of creating mature man and plants is for FUNCTION.  There is NO REASON for God to create the universe with apparent age that the universe doesn't have.

iow, there is no functional reason to create a universe for function.  The universe exists, but does not "function".

That's the whole difference.

Now, may I ask why you continue to dodge my question?

Instead of providing an explanation, you created 3 more questions.

The questions was to get you to think about why the maturity in living things for why you should consider that there may very well be a maturity in non0-living things.  Just because we cannot fathom the why of it yet or the function of it, does not exclude the possibility for it.

Since the universe did not exist until the fourth day and her lights were commanded to shine upon that earth that fourth day, you cannot go by how the old the universe is or the earth is by that speed of light.

And you have no proof that no daughter particles that were not present at creation with parents particles for you or science to say you can tell how old the earth is.

Especially when science based their radiometric dating upon that faulty assumption that there was no global calamity with the last 55,000 years when the Bible testifies to a global flood that covered the mountains.

Radiocarbon is key to understanding Earth's past

Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Psalm 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. 6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. 7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Dare we consider mockers in that field of science?

[ChristB4us]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Now, may I ask why you continue to dodge my question?

I point out again that it is your translation of the scripture that is preventing you to see the truth in His words.  If the prior post that is still pending moderation to pass on the age of the earth question of yours, here is something else for you to reconsider your translation of the earth being a wasteland as if the Lord remade everything.

Psalm 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Ponder the significance of that verse since this is about laying the foundations thereof and not remaking the wasteland.

There is more:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Doesn't read to me as if He was remaking a wasteland but establishing land on that third day.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:18 PM, ChristB4us said:

May I ask why there is an age to Adam & Eve?

May I ask why there is an age to plant life as created mature and bearing seeds and fruits?

May I ask why you cannot use that premise for why the earth may have an apparent age to it?

 

Shalom, ChristB4us.

May I ask a simple question, too? Could it be possible that the "appearance of age" is simply a flaw in the way that human beings perceive "age?"

[BeyondET]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:19 AM, ChristB4us said:

Well, when you consider that water actually killed all air breathing creatures, even the birds, since they would have to land sometime, thus drown, marine life cannot drown but the tsunamis and asteroid impacts and the turbulent waters in some places may have killed some of them off, but not all, obviously, as they would still be able to surface the waters of the flood to breath when they need to.  Reasonable, yes?

The Albatross bird goes for years without touching land and can sleep in flight. The first 6 years is at sea. They spend most of life flying around the earth and floating on water. Can take about 2 months for the bird to make the trip.

Edited June 18, 2023 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, FreeGrace said:

Sure you may ask.  The answer is that God gave us their age when they died.  The question that arises, though, is this:  was their age from the moment of their creation or from when they rebelled and died spiritually.  

Shalom, FreeGrace.

What do the Scriptures say? How was it worded?

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Here's the Hebrew:

וַֽיְחִ֣י אָדָ֗ם שְׁלֹשִׁ֤ים וּמְאַת֙ שָׁנָ֔ה וַיֹּ֥ולֶד בִּדְמוּתֹ֖ו כְּצַלְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֥א אֶת־שְׁמֹ֖ו שֵֽׁת׃
וַיִּֽהְי֣וּ יְמֵי־אָדָ֗ם אַֽחֲרֵי֙ הֹולִידֹ֣ו אֶת־שֵׁ֔ת שְׁמֹנֶ֥ה מֵאֹ֖ת שָׁנָ֑ה וַיֹּ֥ולֶד בָּנִ֖ים וּבָנֹֽות׃
וַיִּֽהְי֞וּ כָּל־יְמֵ֤י אָדָם֙ אֲשֶׁר־חַ֔י תְּשַׁ֤ע מֵאֹות֙ שָׁנָ֔ה וּשְׁלֹשִׁ֖ים שָׁנָ֑ה וַיָּמֹֽת׃ ס

This transliterates to ...

3 Vayhiy 'Aadaam shloshiym uwm'at shaanaah vayyowled bidmuwtow ktsalmow vayyiqraa' 'et-shmow Sheet:
4 vayyihyuw ymeey-'Aadaam 'achareey howliydow 'et-Sheet shmoneh mee'ot shaanaah vayyowled baaniym uwVaanowt:
5 Vayyihyuw kaal-ymeey 'Aadaam 'asher-chay tsha` mee'owt shaanaah uwshloshiym shaanaah vayyaamot: C

This translates word-for-word to ...

3 And-lived Adam thirty and a-hundred years and-begat in-his-likeness like-his-image and-he-called [d.o->]-his-name "Sheit (Seth)":
4 And-were the-days-of-Adam after he-had-begotten [d.o.->]-Sheit eight hundreds years and-he-begat sons and daughters:
5 And-were all-the-days of-Adam that he-lived nine hundred years and thirty years and-he-died: [Paragraph end]

So, the text says that's the number of years of all the days that he lived. Thus, they are a number since the creation of the Man. One might have mistaken Adam for living 960 years if he appeared, say, 30 years old when he was created.

On 6/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, FreeGrace said:

It is very possible that they remained sinless for quite some time (years) before they rebelled. 

Yes, there were 130 years in which they lived before the birth of Sheit ("Seth") and in between the events of the creation and the birth of Sheit, Qayin ("Cain") and Hevel ("Abel") came to maturity and Qayin slew his brother. Sheit was born after this happened. So, because Adam and Chavah were the FIRST to disobey God, then Qayin's murder came afterward, particularly since we are told Qayin's birth came AFTER the Fall.

On 6/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, FreeGrace said:

Again, for FUNCTION.  Just as it would have been very irrational of God to create a newborn human, it would have been just as irrational to create plant life that wasn't mature and bearing fruit for the humans to eat and sustain themselves.

What "premise"?  The whole point of creating mature man and plants is for FUNCTION.  There is NO REASON for God to create the universe with apparent age that the universe doesn't have.

iow, there is no functional reason to create a universe for function.  The universe exists, but does not "function".

Actually, it functions quite well. The whole idea of planets rotating and revolving around a star with moons rotating and revolving around the planets is part of the function! The whole purpose for the lights in the sky were "to divide between the day and the night" and "for signs and seasons and days and years." The "days" (and "nights")  would be the earth's orientation to the sun and with the stars visible in earth's shadow; the "seasons" would be based upon the travel of the moon around the earth; the "years" would be for the travel of the earth-moon system around the sun; and the "signs" - "'otot" - were tokens for God's future promises, such as the star of Beit-lechem ("Bethlehem," "house of bread").

On 6/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, FreeGrace said:

That's the whole difference.

Now, may I ask why you continue to dodge my question?

Instead of providing an explanation, you created 3 more questions.

Did I provide you with an explanation, or do you have more?

[Retrobyter]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 PM, teddyv said:

Just repeating nonsense from his boss at Answers in Genesis. He has no real credibility to make the claims he does. He's probably just reading a script written by Dr. Snelling, known for cherry picking information to support his bankrupt YEC position. These guys are most likely aware that they are wrong but are so deep into the grift, they simply cannot get out anymore. Hence why almost everything out of AiG is culture war/woke stuff. That's where the donor money is now.

Shalom, teddy.

That's really ironic! They say the same thing about evolutionists! They are SO ENTRENCHED in this Big Bang nonsense and evolutionary theory, that they couldn't get out of it if God told them it would cost them their lives if they didn't!

In point of fact, He HAS said that through Peter's words in 2 Peter 3, and no one is listening! So, guess what! Into judgment they all shall go!

It's really quite simple: The Big Bang theory, and other cosmological assumptions are based upon two things that are iffy: 1) That the speed of light is constant at 186,000 mps, and 2) that the red shift and blue shift of starlight spectra are caused by a Dopplar Effect of the light rays.

First, you ARE aware that light traveling through water has a slower speed, right? And light passing through crown glass is even slower than that! If as some claim 70% of the "empty space" is really full of dark matter, then the speed of light from stars passing through that "empty space" would be affected!

If light consists of electromagnetic radiation (noticed in the visible spectrum), then the frequency of the light is based upon its speed. Only by holding light to be a constant can the frequency and the wavelength of the light be considered fully, inversely proportional. Thus, the red-shift or blue-shift of the wavelengths are DEPENDENT UPON the speed of light! But, if it's found that light is not so constant, then that would greatly affect the interpretation of the "Dopplar Effect" supposed in light!

Regarding evolution, I would strongly suggest you take the time and effort to read through the book Evolution's Achilles' Heels.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The Albatross bird goes for years without touching land and can sleep in flight. The first 6 years is at sea. They spend most of life flying around the earth and floating on water. Can take about 2 months for the bird to make the trip.

Shalom, BeyondET.

You're not seeing the big picture. Not only was the water coming down from the sky in BUCKETFULS for over a month and a week, but water was coming VIOLENTLY up from the fissures in the deep!

Everyone knows about it raining for forty days and forty nights, but not many understand that the fountains of the deep were still issuing water long after the rain stopped!

Genesis 7:17-24; 8:1-3 (KJV)

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward (the ark's under-keel clearance) did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL (BIRDS), and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. 1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged (were alleviated; stopped increasing); 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained (lessened); 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated (subsided; the waters were going down).

One hundred and fifty days is FIVE MONTHS! See, most don't understand that the first 40 days and nights were CONTINUAL, TORRENTIAL DOWNPOURS! After they were stopped, the amount of rain was only lessened! The atmosphere was so soupy with humidity, that it still often rained quite heavily throughout that period; it just wasn't a continual rain as before.

If the albatross landed on the water anytime during the 40 days, for any reason, it would take a tremendous amount of effort to rise into the air again! The birds - all birds - would not survive, particularly because they breathe air and their bones are hollow! Hollow bones break easily in violent weather!

STUDY GOD'S WORD!

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

You're not seeing the big picture. Not only was the water coming down from the sky in BUCKETFULS for over a month and a week, but water was coming VIOLENTLY up from the fissures in the deep!

Everyone knows about it raining for forty days and forty nights, but not many understand that the fountains of the deep were still issuing water long after the rain stopped!

Genesis 7:17-24; 8:1-3 (KJV)

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward (the ark's under-keel clearance) did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL (BIRDS), and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. 1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged (were alleviated; stopped increasing); 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained (lessened); 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated (subsided; the waters were going down).

One hundred and fifty days is FIVE MONTHS! See, most don't understand that the first 40 days and nights were CONTINUAL, TORRENTIAL DOWNPOURS! After they were stopped, the amount of rain was only lessened! The atmosphere was so soupy with humidity, that it still often rained quite heavily throughout that period; it just wasn't a continual rain as before.

If the albatross landed on the water anytime during the 40 days, for any reason, it would take a tremendous amount of effort to rise into the air again! The birds - all birds - would not survive, particularly because they breathe air and their bones are hollow! Hollow bones break easily in violent weather!

STUDY GOD'S WORD!

There are shorebirds who literally fly right through hurricanes unharmed.

Eagles have no fear of storms either fly straight for them. 

 

Noah saved his cattle he had on the ark. There was no alligators or polar bears on board.

Gen 8:1

And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged (were alleviated; stopped increasing); 

Remembered even the olive tree resurrected, Gen 8:11

Edited June 18, 2023 by BeyondET