WilliamL Posted June 12, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,117 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, The Light said: Revelation 4 tells us that a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. We see that the trump of God or voice of God has said come up hither. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings in priests in heaven which is the Church in heaven. The problem with this assumption is that the verb for "come up" is second person singular, i.e. referring to John alone. If it was to refer to the Church, it would be 2nd person plural. But there is no hint at all that anyone else besides John is called up at this point. The 24 elders seen in heaven are individual men, at least one or two of which later speak personally to John. Cf. Rev. 7:13 They are not representative of the Church as a whole. Matt. 27:52-53 tells us that selected saints were resurrected from the dead shortly after Jesus. These are the most likely candidates for the 24 elders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 12, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, The Light said: Revelation 3 tells us that He will open a door that no man can shut and no man can open. It also tells us that He comes quickly and let no man take your crown. Revelation 4 tells us that a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. We see that the trump of God or voice of God has said come up hither. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings in priests in heaven which is the Church in heaven. We also know by the Word of God that the dead will rise before the living so obviously there has been a resurrection. There is a huge difference between adding to the Book and understanding what the Book says. There will be a rapture before the seals are opened. When the seals are opened, the final week has begun. You do know that the only one going up in chapter 4 is John. He is only going up in the spirit and remained upon the earth. The message he received was of the things that are to come. The first resurrection is clearly stated. The time and those included in the first resurrection are clearly defined. The time is at the beginning of the thousand years. Look carefully at those who are included: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20: 4) If you add a resurrection before the stated resurrection identified as the first resurrection that is not seeing what is there. That is making stuff up. Because the time of the rest of the dead being raised is specific the rapture can only happen at that time. That is at the end of the thousand years. Rev. 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. There are only two resurrections clearly identified with time and content. Going beyond the text is adding to the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 8 hours ago, WilliamL said: The problem with this assumption is that the verb for "come up" is second person singular, i.e. referring to John alone. If it was to refer to the Church, it would be 2nd person plural. But there is no hint at all that anyone else besides John is called up at this point. The problem with this assumption is that Jesus is talking to the Church's in Revelation 3. He says he is coming quickly and don't let anyone take your crown. The fact that the 24 elders have crowns show that Jesus has returned. This is further supported by the kings and priests before the thrown in Revelation 5 which is the Church. 8 hours ago, WilliamL said: The 24 elders seen in heaven are individual men, at least one or two of which later speak personally to John. Cf. Rev. 7:13 They are not representative of the Church as a whole. Matt. 27:52-53 tells us that selected saints were resurrected from the dead shortly after Jesus. These are the most likely candidates for the 24 elders. You are correct. The 24 elders are not representative of the Church. They are representative of the fact that they have crowns so obviously Jesus has returned and there has been a rapture. So we have kings and priest in Revelation 5, then there is a great multitude in Revelation 7 after Jesus has returned at the 6th seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 6 hours ago, seeking the lost said: You do know that the only one going up in chapter 4 is John. He is only going up in the spirit and remained upon the earth. The message he received was of the things that are to come. Exactly. And what did he see? 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings and priests before the throne in Rev 5. 6 hours ago, seeking the lost said: The first resurrection is clearly stated. The time and those included in the first resurrection are clearly defined. The time is at the beginning of the thousand years. Look carefully at those who are included: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20: 4) If you add a resurrection before the stated resurrection identified as the first resurrection that is not seeing what is there. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The correct order is first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. Christ will come for His bride when it's like the days of Noah as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. People are going to be running around saying that aliens have come. That's when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then there are first fruits of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. They are seen before the throne in Revelation 14. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the harvest. Then they that are Christs at Him coming will be raptured. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will send His angels and remain in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came as the wrath of God is about to begin. 6 hours ago, seeking the lost said: That is making stuff up. The is no need to make anything up. There is only a need to understand what you are reading. 6 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Because the time of the rest of the dead being raised is specific the rapture can only happen at that time. There are two raptures. There is the grain harvest and the fruit harvest. The grain harvest is divided into barley and wheat. The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive Church. The fruit harvest is the seed of the woman, Israel The fig tree has two harvests. Hosea 9 10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, as the fathers were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. 6 hours ago, seeking the lost said: That is at the end of the thousand years. Rev. 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. There are only two resurrections clearly identified with time and content. Going beyond the text is adding to the text. There are only two resurrections. The resurrection of the righteous is the first resurrection and the resurrection of the unrighteous is the second resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 10 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Yes, there are two resurrections. They are clearly described in the twentieth chapter of Revelation. The first is only of those who were killed during the tribulation. The second, last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. I Disagree With Your Claim Made There is one time of resurrection of all, this takes place on the Last day at the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens (The End) Jesus Is The Lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 10 hours ago, The Light said: Exactly. And what did he see? 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings and priests before the throne in Rev 5. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The correct order is first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. Christ will come for His bride when it's like the days of Noah as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. People are going to be running around saying that aliens have come. That's when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then there are first fruits of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. They are seen before the throne in Revelation 14. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the harvest. Then they that are Christs at Him coming will be raptured. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will send His angels and remain in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came as the wrath of God is about to begin. The is no need to make anything up. There is only a need to understand what you are reading. There are two raptures. There is the grain harvest and the fruit harvest. The grain harvest is divided into barley and wheat. The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive Church. The fruit harvest is the seed of the woman, Israel The fig tree has two harvests. Hosea 9 10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, as the fathers were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. There are only two resurrections. The resurrection of the righteous is the first resurrection and the resurrection of the unrighteous is the second resurrection. There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word. Their intent is to drive you to the curse. Eve was deceived in this way. There is a clear warning about adding to this book. Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be. Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection. Rev. 6: The Fifth Seal: Martyrs 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened. The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book. The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD. These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each. This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word. Their intent is to drive you to the curse. Eve was deceived in this way. There is a clear warning about adding to this book. Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be. Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection. Rev. 6: The Fifth Seal: Martyrs 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened. The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book. The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD. These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each. This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text. Be more like Stephen the 1st martyr. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,398 Content Per Day: 12.16 Reputation: 3,269 Days Won: 31 Joined: 11/18/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 I don't think ppl should speculate on actual dates; if it doesn't happen then, it detracts from the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word. Their intent is to drive you to the curse. Eve was deceived in this way. There is a clear warning about adding to this book. Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be. I have added nothing to the Book. I just understand what I am reading. 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection. Correct. The Church is raptured before the tribulation. That means that the Church is raptured before the seals are opened. Revelation 6 contains the 1st 6 seals. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest. The 1st harvest is the grain harvest. The 6th seal coming of Jesus is the fruit harvest. Revelation 14 shows the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is the same coming of Jesus that you see in Matthew 24. Revelation 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The wild grapes are cast into the wrath of God. It is the time of the fruit harvest. 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: Rev. 6: The Fifth Seal: Martyrs 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened. The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book. When you are reading Revelation 5 you are in the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. It is the same great tribulation that you see in Revelation 14. Revelation 14 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. When you are reading Revelation, the seals are in order. When the 7th seal is opened, the trumpets of wrath are in order. At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom. Armageddon is already over. Revelation 11 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. It is the time of judgement. Revelatin 11 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. So the wrath of God is over and the dead are judged. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14, this takes place during the 1st six seals. When you are reading Revelation 15 and 16 this take place in the 7th seal. 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD. These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each. This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text. I have moved nothing. I understand what I am reading. Instead of making statements like this, you would be better served to study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Edited June 13, 2023 by The Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted June 13, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 minute ago, farouk said: I don't think ppl should speculate on actual dates; if it doesn't happen then, it detracts from the message. I think we should be watching so we will know what hour He will come. I think it is wise to understand why certain dates have importance. As long as there is no thus says the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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