douggg Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 17, 2023 1 hour ago, AdHoc said: As to Isaiah 9:6 it carries no proof of who the woman is. 1 hour ago, AdHoc said: If the Man-Child of Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus, which it is, then the Woman must Mary. A man cannot be born to a Nation. It needs a woman (1st Cor.11.12). In the Tanach (the old testament of the kjv), Israel is metaphorically the wife of God, albeit many times unfaithful. Jesus in the new testament is referred to as the Son of God. The Isaiah 9:6 verse, thus is.... Unto us (Israel), a child is born, unto us (Israel) a son (Jesus the Son of God) is given. God is the father, Israel is the wife (metaphorically), Jesus is the son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 201 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,427 Content Per Day: 6.23 Reputation: 2,283 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Online Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 17, 2023 1 hour ago, R. Hartono said: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/227900-woman-of-revelation-12/ Before reading through some of that thread, I didn't realize there were so many varied and (I would say) extravagant notions about the symbology of Rev 12 . . . WOW! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2023 On 6/14/2023 at 9:04 PM, douggg said: The woman clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and crown of 12 stars - Israel The great red dragon - Satan The third part of the stars cast to the earth - the angels who sided with Satan The man child, caught up to God, and to His throne - Jesus The Lamb - Jesus The remnant of the woman's seed - them of the 12 tribes who do not flee into the wilderness quickly when they see the abomination statue image on the temple mount. They keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus - they will have become Christians. The one who tried to kill the man child soon as he was born= king of Judea The woman must flee into the wilderness 1260 days while the two witnesses are in Judea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,035 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 1,452 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2023 10 hours ago, douggg said: In the Tanach (the old testament of the kjv), Israel is metaphorically the wife of God, albeit many times unfaithful. Jesus in the new testament is referred to as the Son of God. The Isaiah 9:6 verse, thus is.... Unto us (Israel), a child is born, unto us (Israel) a son (Jesus the Son of God) is given. God is the father, Israel is the wife (metaphorically), Jesus is the son. Okay. Let's insert Israel for the Woman and see what we get. But before we proceed let us be reminded of 2nd Peter 1:20. No private interpretation is allowed. That is, the Bible must explain the Bible or nature can show the things of God (Romans 1) Verse 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; ISRAEL clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Israel has been transported to heaven - when? Israel is a "great wonder (sign)" - a sign to who? Clothing in parable is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). Our Lord Jesus is called "SUN of righteousness" (Mal.4:2). Therefore Israel, who never believed in Jesus, who vehemently hate Him still today, who cannot keep the Law because the Temple is missing, who, in the end times, make a pact with the Beast, are in heaven clothed with the righteousness of Christ. A Crown is on her head. A crown is for ruling, but Matthew 21:43 has the Kingdom ripped away from Israel for their rejection of Messiah. The moon is the lesser light to rule the night. Our Lord Jesus says that when He is not present it is night. When He is present it is day (Jn.9:4). So this means that Israel is standing on the time when Jesus is absent and is ruler of the night. Verse 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Israel, a "sign" is heavily pregnant with Jesus while still in heaven - the metaphorical bringing forth the physical. Israel cries with the birthpangs. But she has other seed. Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So Israel gave birth to the Church. The Unbelieving caused the Believing to come forth. The Believers were born before Christ because they "REMAIN" after Jesus is raptured directly after birth. So Jesus, son of Israel, is not firstborn. The Church preceded Him. Israel has great pain delivering Jesus, but this is not recorded. Bible shows that no one suffered when Jesus was born and the call from God was that this was a joyous time. I will stop here because the absurdities are increasing. Instead I will insert New Jerusalem - for my theory must undergo the same test as yours. New Jerusalem is not a real city. It is a sign. It is Woman, Wife, Bride and City all together. It is God's tabernacle, and it comes from heaven. When it appears it is the consummation of God's whole plan for the earth. New Jerusalem is the the only entity that contains Christ (the Sun), Jew (those who keep the commandments of God) and Believer (those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ). New Jerusalem is the only entity tat is "Mother of us ALL" - Jew and Believer (Gal.4:26). New Jerusalem rules, thus the crown (Rev.22:5). The crown is made of stars (Matt.13:43). The Church has a heavenly calling and is born from above. In resurrection they have "celestial glory" and the Kingdom they bring to earth is "the Kingdom of Heaven". New Jerusalem is wife, a woman and gets to stand on, or dominate, the lesser light which rules the night. Revelation 12 takes place when Satan has but a little time left. he is soon to be bound in an abyss. Our Lord Jesus was not born then. Our Lord was physical, He could not come from a "sign". Our Lord was firstborn to Mary, not Israel. Our Lord Jesus as not raptured to the throne directly after birth. Our Lord did not have a "Remnant" of Mary's seed already alive at His birth. Satan was not displaced from heaven when our Lord was raptured to heaven. In Ephesians he is still "prince of the power of the air". Mary did not go to the wilderness for 1260 days. Israel did not go the wilderness for 1260 days after Jesus' rapture. There is more, but I think my position is strong. Of curse, if you allow private interpretation and allow the mix of literal and metaphorical in the same sentence or concept, you will be able to prove anything. I am not naive (I hope). You will need to mull this all over some time, for the theory of the Woman in Revelation 12 being Israel is widespread. Test each point until you are satisfied that it allows sustained logical argument to a logical end. It's been a pleasure to swap ideas with you. Thank you for your courtesy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 51 minutes ago, AdHoc said: Israel, a "sign" is heavily pregnant with Jesus while still in heaven - the metaphorical bringing forth the physical. Israel cries with the birthpangs. But she has other seed. Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So Israel gave birth to the Church. huh ? John sees not a sign but a great wonder - which is closer to being a vision, than a sign. We call our televisions - televisons, not telesigns. Those in verse 17 who have the testimony of Jesus will be the Jews -the people of Israel - who fail to heed Jesus' word in Matthew 24, that when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place to flee to the mountains right away, don't delay. The ones in verse 14 are the Jews - the people of Israel - who do flee to the mountains right away as Jesus instructed, where they will be protected. The church isn't anywhere in Revelation 12. 51 minutes ago, AdHoc said: I will stop here because the absurdities are increasing. Your logic methodology is the what produces the absurdities. Of course, the nation of Israel was not literally in heaven - in verse 1. John is seeing a vision - not the literal presence of Israel. And the vision that John was seeing is full of symbolism and metaphor - that other scripture reveal the meaning to. Edited June 17, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,035 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 1,452 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, douggg said: huh ? John sees not a sign but a great wonder - which is closer to being a vision, than a sign. We call our televisions - televisons, not telesigns. Those in verse 17 who have the testimony of Jesus will be the Jews -the people of Israel - who fail to heed Jesus' word in Matthew 24, that when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place to flee to the mountains right away, don't delay. The ones in verse 14 are the Jews - the people of Israel - who do flee to the mountains right away as Jesus instructed, where they will be protected. The church isn't anywhere in Revelation 12. Your logic methodology is the what produces the absurdities. Of course, the nation of Israel was not literally in heaven - in verse 1. John is seeing a vision - not the literal presence of Israel. And the vision that John was seeing is full of symbolism and metaphor - that other scripture reveal the meaning to. The Greek word is "semeion". Greek language authorities give the meaning as "sign". It is rendered so in many cases. In Revelation 1.1 it s used as a warning about the rest of the Book.. You maintained that the Woman of Revelation 12 was Israel. So I inserted Israel for the Woman. Scripture, not me, says that the Woman is a sign and that that sign was in heaven. The word "AND" is a conjunction. It joins two different things: In verse 17 TWO different companies are mentioned; 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. One company keeps the Law of Moses and one company has the testimony of Jesus Christ. Jews abhor the testimony of Jesus Christ. There must be TWO distinct companies here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. One company keeps the Law of Moses and one company has the testimony of Jesus Christ. Jews abhor the testimony of Jesus Christ. There must be TWO distinct companies here. In Revelation 12:10, it indicates that the people of Israel - the Jews - have finally embraced the gospel of salvation and Jesus as their savior - after and due to the two witnesses 1260 days of prophesying in Jerusalem to them, feeding them the word of God in Revelation 12:6. The Jews keep the commandments of God including observing the Sabbath, which their travel is limited on that day. In Jesus's instruction for them to flee, when the abomination of desolation image is standing in the holy place, Jesus also included for them to pray... Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ...which would impair their ability to flee. _________________________ So there is only one group in Revelation 12:17, the Jews, who keep the commandments of God and also have the testimony of Jesus because they will have become believers in Him. Edited June 17, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: You maintained that the Woman of Revelation 12 was Israel. So I inserted Israel for the Woman. Scripture, not me, says that the Woman is a sign and that that sign was in heaven. The scripture the kjv says wonder - not sign. I think the problem in our disagreement is that I view Revelation 12 as a grand vision, a portrayal of historic and future events, taking place in the third heaven where John was. Differently, I think that you are understanding heaven in verse 1 as being heaven which we see the stars. The reason you want to make verse 1 a sign. ------------------------- Noting that difference - let me give you an example why you cannot just substitute Israel for the woman and read back the text that way. Suppose you were in your living room - watching television (a vision) and saw president Biden in a news broadcast. Can you go back and say president Biden was literally present in your living room, at that time? No, you can not. You are at your home, and President Biden is off somewhere else, at the time you saw him on television. The same reason, you cannot retrofit Israel as being literally present in the third heaven, at time John saw the wonder, the portrayal of historic and future events. Edited June 17, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted June 17, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 771 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,937 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2023 20 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Before reading through some of that thread, I didn't realize there were so many varied and (I would say) extravagant notions about the symbology of Rev 12 . . . WOW! It should be based on history otherwise its just story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 18, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 201 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,427 Content Per Day: 6.23 Reputation: 2,283 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Online Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 18, 2023 Let's try things from another angle @douggg. Here are the verses immediately after the dragon is cast out (10-11), which says: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their soul-life even unto death." This is referring to the man-child, is it not? So who are these pronouns (they, their, our) all referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts