There are 2 separate tribulations, the first is to the Jew

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

But the wrath of God is determined to be poured out on the disobedient and  evil doers, notice what Paul said…

Romans 2:9

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Now here's what I suggest you do, reread Romans chapters 9-11 (all three chapters) and try to figure out what Paul is trying to teach the Romans in this Epistle/letter unto them. You pick out the Jew first and do not grasp why he is pointing out their downfall. He is trying to teach them a "Life Lesson" so he says the Jews (Paul's brothers/his nation) have received of Judgment, but you Romans, who have done the same thing, should not judge them (I will prove this later). So, the verse I cited above is not what you suggest, you pulled it out of context add in vs. 8 and watch how it IS NOT God's Wrath at all. SEE BELOW:

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious(WATCH NOW), and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

So, by ADDING in the other verses we see Paul is telling them "Hey Romans, do not judge my Jewish brothers, YEA, they can get God's anger firstly, (BUT WHY FIRST? Because they KNEW God first !! That is why) but so can you, so don't judge them, for you once did the exact same things they are doing now. BUT NOTICE who gets Blessed First !! In verse 10 the Blessings came first to the Jews !! See how taking the verse out of CONTEXT leads you down a wrong path brother? Glory, and Honor, and Peace, to the Jew FIRST !! Israel knew God first, Daniel, Joseph and David knew the peace of God, as did Israel, before all other men. So, yes, they received God's punishment firstly, because God punishes those who know better FIRSTLY so to speak. 

Reading this whole book (Romans) one can see, Paul is admonishing the Roman Church not to judge Israel. The first few verses here show that.

Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

This whole chapter is about how God had His own REASONS for replacing the Jews MISSION with the Gentile Church, and Paul tells them in so many words, you are not special, you have been chosen because you received Christ by FAITH, they have been CUT OFF because they refused to live by FAITH ALONE, and clung to the law or rejected the Promised Messiah (Jesus). BUT..........Paul says, God is the Potter and he chooses as He so pleases. God CHOSE Jacob over Esau before both were ever born, God knows what He is doing in other words. Israel COMPLETED their first mission, they BIRTHED the Messiah. They are also supposed to welcome in the Kingdom Age but because of NO FAITH, they were cut-off from the Olive Tree, and the Gentiles were grafted in, but as Paul says in Rom. 11, when the Time of the Gentiles has come in full (our Mission is COMPLETE, we the Church will have taken the Gospel unto the ends of the world) then Israel will once again BELIEVE and thus will be Grafted back into the Olive Tree of God's Family but only by FAITH ALONE. (see Zech. 13:8-9)

So, the whole chapter is Paul trying to explain that if the Romans do not abide in FAITH, they too will be cut off, they are under God's mercy, but so will Israel gain God's mercy back one day, when the Two-witnesses show up, just before the DOTL. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Neighbor]

Romans 9 through 11 is God's plan for Israel.

[Stewardofthemystery]

38 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Now here's what I suggest you do, reread Romans chapters 9-11 (all three chapters) and try to figure out what Paul is trying to teach the Romans in this Epistle/letter unto them. You pick out the Jew first and do not grasp why he is pointing out their downfall. He is trying to teach them a "Life Lesson" so he says the Jews (Paul's brothers/his nation) have received of Judgment, but you Romans, who have done the same thing, should not judge them (I will prove this later). So, the verse I cited above is nit what you suggest, you pulled it out of context add in vs. 8 and watch how it IS NOT God's Wrath at all. SEE BELOW:

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious(WATCH NOW), and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

So, by ADDING in the other verses we see Paul is telling them "Hey Romans, do not judge my Jewish brothers, YEA, they can get God's anger firstly, (BUT WHY FIRST? Because they KNEW God first !! That is why) but so can you, so don't judge them, for you once did the exact same things they are doing now. BUT NOTICE who gets Blessed First !! in verse 10 the Blessings came first to the Jews !! See how takin g the verse out of CONTEXT leads you down a wrong path brother? Glory, and Honor, and Peace, to the Jew FIRST !! Israel knew God first, Daniel, Joseph and David knew the peace of God, as did Israel, before all other men. So, yes, they received God's punishment firstly, because God punishes those who knows better FIRSTLY so to speak. 

Reading this whole book (Romans) once can see, Paul is admonishing the Roman Church not to judge Israel. The first few verses here show that.

Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

This whole chapter is about how God had His own REASONS for replacing the Jews MISSION with the Gentile Church, and Paul tells them in so many words, you are not special, you have been chosen because you received Christ by FAITH, they have been CUT OFF because they refused to live by FAITH ALONE, and clung to the law or rejected the Promised Messiah (Jesus). BUT..........Paul says, God is the Potter and he chooses as He so pleases. God CHOSE Jacob over Esau before both were ever born, God knows what He is doing in other words. Israel COMPLETED their first mission, they BIRTHED the Messiah. They are also supposed to welcome in the Kingdom Age but because of NO FAITH, they were cut-off from the Olive Tree, and the Gentiles were grafted in, but as Paul says in Rom. 11, when the Time of the Gentiles has come in full (our Mission is COMPLETE, we have taken the Gospel unto the ends of the world) then Israel will once again BELIEVE and thus will be Grafted back into the Olive Tree of God's Family but only by FAITH ALONE. 

So, the whole chapter is Paul trying to explain that if they do not abide in FAITH, they too will be cut off, they are under God's mercy, but so will Israel gain God's mercy back one day. 

I fully understand why God was angry with the Jews.  They rebelled against God as soon as they came out of Egypt.

God forewarned them of all the curses and judgements He would punish them with by the mouth of Moses.

But the fact remains ….

Romans 2:9

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
 

After “the tribulation of those days”which was first to the Jew.  Which is also “after the fullness of the Gentiles”; Ungodliness shall be removed from Jacob, and the cup of Gods wrath shall then be poured out on the evil doers of the Gentiles.

 

This is prophecy.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I fully understand why God was angry with the Jews.  They rebelled against God as soon as they came out of Egypt.

God forewarned them of all the curses and judgements He would punish them with by the mouth of Moses.

But the fact remains ….

Romans 2:9

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
 

After “the tribulation of those days”which was first to the Jew.  Which is also “after the fullness of the Gentiles”; Ungodliness shall be removed from Jacob, and the cup of Gods wrath shall then be poured out on the evil doers of the Gentiles.

 

This is prophecy.

The fact remains that verse 10 says blessing to the Jews first. The WRATH in verse 8 is merely telling us the types of men (both Jew and Gentiles) who get into troubles and why, so THE WRATH is not Gods but the men who are contentious. 

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

They live an unrighteous life obeying indignation, and Wrath. So, this is NOT God's Wrath, I thought you would pick up on that in my last post. This is those men's wrath, and indignation, and unrighteousness. These ACTIONS is what brings them troubles. 

Again, you need to understand CONTEXT. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Anne2]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:53 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

So you believe Jesus was wrong when he said

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Or are you saying Daniel was wrong when he said

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

 

Because the only way both of them are right is if they are speaking of the same tribulation 

Or that John the baptist was wrong? Preaching repentance for the remission of their sin, to escape (salvation from) the wrath that was coming

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Ro 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Anne2

[Stewardofthemystery]

28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

They live an unrighteous life obeying indignation, and Wrath. So, this is NOT God's Wrath, I though you would pick up on that in my last post. Thus id these men's wrath, and indignation, and unrighteousness. These ACTIONS is what brings them troubles. 

Again, you need to understand CONTEXT. 

That’s a good one, men are not obeying indignation and wrath in that verse as you say.
 

It is Gods indignation (righteous anger) and wrath that is poured out on them for being contentious, for not obeying the truth, and for doing unrighteousness.

Romans 2:8

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

Or that John the baptist was wrong? Preaching repentance for the remission of their sin, to escape (salvation from) the wrath that was coming

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Ro 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 

That is a good point.  Why would John the Baptist be warning the Jews in his day about the wrath that was coming on them, if it were not going to happen for a couple of thousand years later?

Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:7

Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That’s a good one, men are not obeying indignation and wrath in that verse as you say.
 

It is Gods indignation (righteous anger) and wrath that is poured out on them for being contentious, for not obeying the truth, and for doing unrighteousness.

Romans 2:8

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You do not get that these translations have to be DEEP STUDIED, there were not written in English, So, thus Greek is OBVIOUS to me. Paul says these men were Contentious and thus did not obey the TRUTH (God's TRUTHS, God's Holy Word) but they obeyed (loved evil more than God's Holy Word) Unrighteousness, Indignation (Anger) and Wrath (they are Murders, Killers, Slave Drivers etc.) In other words these type men are not Righteous, they are quick to anger and are Murders, Rapists, etc. etc. in other words they are Barbarians in heart.

Study the Greek words via Geek Bible word studies.

2:8 But 1161 vnto them that are contentious, 1537 2052 & 2532 doe not obey 544 3303 z5723 the x3588 trueth, 225 but 1161 obey 3982 z5734 vnrighteousnes, 93 indignation, 2372 & 2532 wrath, 3709

CONTENTIONS (1537 and 2052)

1537 (Greek word EK) simply means the Origin. 

 2052 (Greek word ERITHEIA) means 1) electioneering or intriguing for office 1a) apparently, in the NT a courting distinction, a desire to put one's self forward, a partisan and fractious spirit which does not disdain low arts 1b) partisanship, fractiousness

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) NOTE (2532 is pretty much the same as 2052)

So, these men are contentious, they do not desire to follow God's ways in other words but THEIR OWN WAYS, that is what Paul is saying here when one delves into the Greek word studies. They do not OBEY......

OBEY 

#0544 ἀπειθέω (Greek word apeitheo) {ap-i-theh'-o} from G0545; TDNT - 6:10,818; v

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G0545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

{{{ Seems this word here more or less means they REFUSE to BELIEVE in God's TRUTHS }}} 

 

#3303 μέν (Greek word men) {men} a primary particle; TDNT - n/a; particle

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

A primary particle; properly indicative of affirmation or concession (in fact); usually followed by a contrasted clause with G1161 (this one, the former, etc.:—even, indeed, so, some, truly, verily. Often compounded with other particles in an intensive or asseverative sense.

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

{{{ So, same word, OBEY, and here it seems to mean affirmation or concession. So, now we can move that sentence down from above, and carry on. }}}

So, these men are contentious, they do not desire to follow God's ways in other words but THEIR OWN WAYS, that is what Paul is saying here when one delves into the Greek word studies. They do not OBEY.....or concede/affirm God's truths, they believe in their own truths.  

OBEY AGAIN different NUMBER, mostly the same meaning

#3982 πείθω (Greek word peitho) {pi'-tho} a primary verb; TDNT - 6:1,818; v

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) persuade 1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

So, THESE are INDUCED to believe in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION, and WRATH. Which brings them troubles. Do not always accept a word is translated perfectly. 

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Or that John the baptist was wrong? Preaching repentance for the remission of their sin, to escape (salvation from) the wrath that was coming

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Ro 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 

Yes ,wrath is coming but not for those who's names are written.

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That is a good point.  Why would John the Baptist be warning the Jews in his day about the wrath that was coming on them, if it were not going to happen for a couple of thousand years later?

Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:7

Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Far as I understand Jesus warned all the cities of Israel that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgement that for the cities in Israel.

He even said it will be more tolerable for cities located in Lebanon than for cities in Israel on judgement day.

 

So you believe judgement day was in 70 ad as well,?