Doctrine vs Unity

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3.  Faith/trust/belief in His work on the cross will save the believer.  This eliminates any idea that man must "cooperate" with Jesus through lifestyle changes.  Another word for "works".

What is the meaning of repentance?

Did people demonstrate repentance in response to the Gospel or just say 'okay, cool!'?

Acts 19:

18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 

19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books

together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up

the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 

20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

Did the word of the Lord prevail due to widespread belief,

or did this result from "co-operating"? What an anemic word!

It is called obedience, and is essential to "saving faith".

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship,

for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Hebrews 5:

8 Though he were a Son, yet He learned obedience

by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation

unto all them that obey him;

The idea that obedience is not essential to salvation

is a doctrine of men.

[Who me]

53 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

I question whether or not Who Christ is must be a included as an essential element in how the Good News is being presented by modern evangelicalism

Two responses  to that.

1. Only God is sinless, so only God can pay the penalty for our sins.

2. The Mormons will preach you must be born again etc, yet they don't believe that Jesus is the second person  of the trinity, merely that he is the offspring of God and his wife.

 

Are you prepared to be in union with them?

Doctrine  do3s matter.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Philologos said:

First time I’ve heard ‘works’ defined as lifestyle changes. My previous lifestyle was that of a violent alcoholic. By my lifestyle changing, was I misled into “works” by people teaching me?

I don't know.  What did they teach you?  That you are saved by changing the way you live?  Anything that involves man's effort in obtaining salvation is "works".  No way around it.  Eph 2:8,9 refutes that idea.

And, faith isn't a work.  It is a trust issue.  No work involved.  It's trusting in Christ's work on the cross.

[Philologos]

40 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Sounds like a formula for inter-denominational bashing.

Have churches found any agreement, any common ground

in comprehending this one verse?

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine

and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

If there are essential doctrines for the day to day lives of believers,

reconciled to God in Christ, surely this is foundational moving forward.

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,

let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance

from dead works and of faith toward God, 

2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection

of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

3 And this we will do if God permits.

Zeroing in on the thread topic, Paul addresses unity over doctrine here.

Philippians 2:

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if

in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 

16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, 

let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

The “same mind” is what I think churches are trying to accomplish, but they do it via doctrine; others become ‘of the same mind’ through practicing unity… I’m just trying to grasp the shift in the paradigm— 

 

[FreeGrace]

38 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said: 

3.  Faith/trust/belief in His work on the cross will save the believer.  This eliminates any idea that man must "cooperate" with Jesus through lifestyle changes.  Another word for "works".

What is the meaning of repentance?

"metanoeo" is a compound word in the Greek and literally means "change of mind".  I believe that it can refer to salvation in context because there are a number of things that one must change their mind about in order to believe in Christ.  And in other contexts, it refers to a change of mind that leads to a change of direction (lifestyle).  All believers need to repent of their sins.  But that isn't what saves us.  Only trust in the work of Christ will save us.

38 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

 

Did people demonstrate repentance in response to the Gospel or just say 'okay, cool!'?

Acts 19:

18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 

19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books

together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up

the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 

20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

Did the word of the Lord prevail due to widespread belief,

or did this result from "co-operating"? What an anemic word!

It is called obedience, and is essential to "saving faith".

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship,

for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Hebrews 5:

8 Though he were a Son, yet He learned obedience

by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation

unto all them that obey him;

I believe all this is summarized in what I just posted.

38 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

The idea that obedience is not essential to salvation is a doctrine of men.

Well, then, that would mean salvation involves one's effort, or works.  I know all about Heb 5:9 and John 3:36.  However, either one is saved ONLY by faith/trust in the work of Christ, or by a combination of faith/trust and a changed lifestyle (obedience).

Obedience is commanded of believers (already saved).  So no, obedience is NOT essential or required for salvation.

It is the doctrine of men that obedience is essential to salvation.

[Philologos]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There are essential facts that must be believed in order to be saved.

1.  Jesus is not only human but Deity; God the Son. 

2.  Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind to pay the sin penalty that separates man from God.

3.  Faith/trust/belief in His work on the cross will save the believer.  This eliminates any idea that man must "cooperate" with Jesus through lifestyle changes.  Another word for "works".

 

Listen carefully.  If hearing the gospel but noting if any essentials missing, is a red flag.   

 

I believe these things, so I’m saved. These are the “essentials” for being saved, yes? So I don’t need additional doctrines provided by churches, and it’s obvious that few, if any, see unity as a factor in one’s salvation, so church attendance seems, not only unnecessary, but also, counterproductive to these essential doctrines; and, could actually hinder one’s understanding of the essential doctrines. 
So, the acceptance of these three tenets is really all that God requires? There is no doctrine of unity?

 

 

 

[Alive]

Just now, Philologos said:

I believe these things, so I’m saved. These are the “essentials” for being saved, yes? So I don’t need additional doctrines provided by churches, and it’s obvious that few, if any, see unity as a factor in one’s salvation, so church attendance seems, not only unnecessary, but also, counterproductive to these essential doctrines; and, could actually hinder one’s understanding of the essential doctrines. 
So, the acceptance of these three tenets is really all that God requires? There is no doctrine of unity?

 

 

 

All of those 'In Christ' are one--this is a fact. What remains, is that we do our best with His help and Grace to behave in a manner consistent with the Reality of Oneness in Christ.

[Mr. M]

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No way around it.  Eph 2:8,9 refutes that idea.

Why is this always cited, while omitting verse 10?

Ephesians 2:10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,

which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Not what we decide is 'good works', but what the Lord commands us to do.

Acts 26:

19 Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 

20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout

all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent,

turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

If this is to Paul the essentials of his Gospel, I find it to be essential.

37 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, then, that would mean salvation involves one's effort, or works.  I know all about Heb 5:9 and John 3:36.  However, either one is saved ONLY by faith/trust in the work of Christ, or by a combination of faith/trust and a changed lifestyle (obedience).

Obedience is commanded of believers (already saved).  So no, obedience is NOT essential or required for salvation.

It is the doctrine of men that obedience is essential to salvation.

 

If committing your trust to someone does not involve obeying them, 

then let us eat and drink, and maybe today we die.

Luke 1:

74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Does this offend you?

[Mr. M]

49 minutes ago, Philologos said:

The “same mind” is what I think churches are trying to accomplish, but they do it via doctrine; others become ‘of the same mind’ through practicing unity… I’m just trying to grasp the shift in the paradigm— 

 

Unity is the fruit of fellowship in the Spirit, and we must make this our endeavor.

Ephesians 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

This "renewed mind" will result in "the same mind".

Ephesians 4:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man,

which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in

righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed

by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that

good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

If salvation is by faith, and our faith is tried and proven,

then so is our salvation.

1 Peter 1:

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 

8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 

9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

[Mr. M]

18 minutes ago, Alive said:

All of those 'In Christ' are one--this is a fact. What remains, is that we do our best with His help and Grace to behave in a manner consistent with the Reality of Oneness in Christ.

I would submit that this can only be accomplished by the humility of submission.

Ephesians 4:2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering,

bearing with one another in love.

Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.