The Lords 2 anointed witnesses

[abcdef]

On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said:

I don't believe Peter understood who Jesus really was. He told Jesus he would try and prevent Him from the cross, he also denied knowing Him 3 times, and after the cross, he went right back to his day job of being a fisherman. Despite the miracles, the amazing wisdom He preached - all during a 3.5 year period, no one really understood who Jesus was... Jesus, even being presented in a very humble manner, even after all the miracles, is simply too big for us to take in.

I disagree - sorry. In God's image of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms, He established the 4th kingdom as pagan Rome. They would come into existence around 63BC. This was well after the beginning of Israel. But due to the tremendous power that would become Impreial Rome, the Jews would find themselves to be "sitting at the feet of this powerful kingdom" at the time of the coming Messiah. This is also important to note that this is the timing of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - all things HAD to be fully restored after the Babylonian destruction BEFORE THE MESSIAH COULD ARRIVE - HE WAS SYMBOLICALLY THE LAST PIECE OF FURNITURE TO BE RESTORED IN THE SANCTUARY - THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS THE FIRST PIECE TO BE REMOVED FROM THE CLUTCHES OF THE BABYLONIANS AND THIS WOULD / COULD ONLY BE RESTORED BY JESUS - HE WOULD BE THE FINAL PIECE RESTORED.

And this is also important because in order for their to be a "divisi0n" there must be a complete "something" to divide. At the time of the cross, there is the relatively beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, the completion of ALL THINGS ISRAEL -PHYSICAL ELEMENTS, LEVITICAL CYCLES, ETC., BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE JEWISH NATION WOULD BE SITTING OR BEING OPPRESSED BY THE ROMANS.

There was no nation, no peoples on the earth at that time that could compete, overcome or contest the Roman Empire - everyone was "under their feet." Israel was back at home and complete but it was symbolically contained within the Roman kingdom. They could not fight their way out or even peacefully get out from under Rome. And most important, is that they were very comfortable continuing in the Jewish faith - yes, they were expecting their Messiah to come, but not the One that did come. Meaning, it was the Stone that would be the only force (not military as expected by the Jews) that would break apart those of His people that would start His church. Nothing would have changed within Israel had Jesus not come to "divide" those who would go forth throughout the world preaching the One and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Jews kept Him to themselves even though that was their mission given to them by God at Mt. Sinai. Now, the "Potter" (Jeremiah) would break apart those of His people that would come to accept Him (pottery clay) vs. those that would continue their pre-cross Jewish ways (ceramic clay). They would not be broken apart from the holdings of pagan Rome in a military manner but in a spiritual manner. Verse 2:34 must be Jesus coming out of the mountain, carved without human hands to "break apart" the iron and the clay" and choose those of His people that He could use to preach His Word and His Testimony. Clearly, no kingdom was destroyed at His first coming -the remainder of the chapters in Daniel surely prove that and expand on the actors and events that would occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy (certainly chapter 9), and to the coming little horn.

 

 

In the beginning of chapter 2, God gives Nebuchadnezzar a complete (big picture) of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that He wants us to see and consider on the earth. Their is no need to consider extra-biblical records (our history books) because this is not a history lesson from God. God is giving us 12 chapters of unbelievable prophecies using certainl actors and certain identified kingdoms - and all of these verses MUST paint the same picture - the coming of the Messiah and His plan of restoration for the Jews and mankind. 

So yes, the feet and the toes are complete in this "blueprint" of the metal man image. The clay is the only non-metallica element in the image for it is to reflect His people that will be sitting at the bottom of the feet of pagan R0me at the time of His coming. If you quickly look at any of the chapters that describe the first 3 kingdoms, there is not one that goes into such details and discussions as the 4th kingdom - because this is where all the important prophecies will occurr - His first coming tied nicely in with the 70 weeks of years prophecy, His 3.5 year ministry, His rejection and the cross, the beginning of His church after the cross and certainly the beginning of the little horn who would not come out of the 4th kingdom UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS - why, because the early church leaders (all Jews) would begin the church, they would preach to the Gentile world as commissioned by Jesus. They (Gentiles) would be seen in chapter 7 as "coming out of and behind the 10 kings" AFTER THE STONE IN CHAPTER 2 HAD BROKEN APART THE IRION AND THE CLAY. By the time  of Constantine, the Gentiles had effectively taken over His church and removed the presences of the Jews (verses 2:41-43) and we will then find that after pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed (chapter 7) they would continue to climb in power and be found to "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. 

In the "dream sequence" (where God reveals the big picture to Nebuchadnezzar), he sees the 4 different types of metals (kingdoms) down to the FEET. Nebuchadnezzar does not see the 10 individual toes but the feet made of iron and clay only. This is also very symbolic since he does and could not understand nor recognize the toes or the clay. It is only when Daniel is given the "interpretation sequence" of verses (details - 2:41-43)) is the type of clay described and the 10 toes mentioned. Then he is given a series of comparisons to consider that reveal the different make up of what was within the feet - not only the types of clay but the continuation of iron (pagan Rome) that would continue AFTER THE CROSS.

Just as God would break apart those of His people who would come to accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) AFTER THE CROSS from both the iron kingdom of pagan Rome AND those that would reject Him (ceramic clay), you will notice that the 10 toes (AFTER THE STONE STRIKES THE FEET) WERE ALSO BROKEN AWAY OR OUT FROM UNDER THE IRON KINGDOM OF PAGAN ROME. When we get to chapter 7, we find that the 4 specific parts are all now shown and discussed separately:

1) the iron element will stil continue for another 400 years as pagan Rome until it is slain / destroyed,

2) the ceramic clay (Jews who still rejected Jesus) would continue until this day but would be made "desolate" to their God,

3) the pottery clay (Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah) would begin His church and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world as commanded by Jesus (His earthly / early church),

4) the ten toes which were also oppressed and kept within the feet of pagan Rome would now be outside the feet (no longer mentioned with the "indescribable 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome in chapter 7). They would now be referred to separately as 10 horns or powers that CAME OUT OF THE 4TH KINGDOM BEAST (BEFORE THE CROSS).

 

Well, I have not read that but we might be getting the same result as this.. however, when you identify that Jesus is the Stone that strikes the feet at His first coming, one can see the outcome - we have Daniel providing the  consequences of His separating the iron and the clay as well as the 10 toes - they are not only reflected in verses 2:41-43, but they are discussed in greater details in chapters 7,8 9 and 11. All of these verses in all of these chapters only come about IF 2:34 OR THE STONE / JESUS breaks apart the iron and the clay elements in the feet at His first coming. This was His mission given to Him by His Father.

No, the Roman Empire was "slain and its body destroyed" (chapter 7) around 467 AD. If you look at the  progression of the 10 toes, you will find the following:

1) in chapter 2 they are shown as 10 toes held captive within the feet of pagan Rome - they were not going anywhere,

2) then in chapter 2 the Stone breaks apart the iron and the clay in the feet,

3) then in chapter 7, Daniel reveals the different entities separately as a result of the Stone striking the feet (only) - clearly this took place at His first coming because all 4 kingdoms are still alive and doing well and are now discussed quite differently AS A RESULT OF THE STRIKING OF THE FEET AND SEPARATING THE ELEMENTS. Now, the 10 toes are revealed as 10 horns (ONCE THEY ARE OUTSIDE THE ENCLOSED FEET) and are shown as horns or powers. 

4) then they are discussed by Daniel as 10 kings in chapter 7. This ONLY comes about AFTER the demise of pagan Rome. Why? The 10 horns or powers have now climbed to the top of the 4th kingdom beast (again, pagan Rome was destroyed when this would take place). Now. these 10 kings reflect not only the power that was symbolically found as 10 horns (before their ascension to the top of the beast), but because they were shown as "kings" they would demand obedience. So we see a clear progression of the toes to the kings between chapter 2 and 7 - before the cross to the time pagan Rome is destroyed and the little horn takes power (papal Rome).

 

Yes, as the church grew, the Gentiles would essentially take over the church. The Jews would be removed (they would mingle but would not adhere ...) meaning because the Gentiles would corrrupt the Word of God and bring in many forms of paganism, the Jews would not accept these practices - they would mingle or still be within the church until they were voluntarily removed or removed by the Gentile church leaders.By this time (from Constantine onward), the church would be run by the bishops - of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria - all fighting to head this tremenodus movement. But Rome would win out and the bishop of Rome would come to full power after pagan Rome was slain and he would become the pope or papacy of this church.

The toes will NEVER end. but please note that the toes were in existence BEFORE THE CROSS (BEFORE THE STONE BROKE APART THE IRON AND THE CLAY), AND AFTER THE CROSS WHEN THEY WOULD BE REVEALED AS 10 HORNS AND 10 KINGS. I have not discussed the 4th and final progression of the 10 toes  - also in chapter 7 but that would take up much more time to discuss .... But the bottom line, is the 10 toes / horns / kings will continue until the end of time.

 

The statue does not fall - it was  not meant to fall but to "house" the many messianic prophecies that would come through the 4 kingdoms. The 4th kingdom in the form of papal Rome is said to have to continue until the time of the end - and they will - the papacy and the false teachings of the church will continue until the end of time right before the coming of the Messiah.

At the end of time, Jesus will destroy all 5 elements found in the image (2:45). This is the crushing into powder all the elements and thrown into the wind. His second coming when He will consummate His church.

I don't know why you would say that... the Gentiles (you and me) are certainly here at this time.. 1967 has nothing to do with the Gentiles. It was an important date in secular Israel but they have not had the blindness removed from their eyes - because the time of the Gentiles has not come yet - but we are so close (imo).

I agree, but as I mentiond in my last post, they will NOT turn to Jesus (corporately - since there certainly are many that have come to accept Jesus especially in the last 50 years or so), because It WILL BE A DIVINE EXPERIENCE. God will cause a divine act to remove the blindness from their eyes as He did with Paul. - Full cirlce - man can not do this....this is God's decision in His plan of salvation.

I am sorry to disagree once again, but the time, times and 1/2 times ARE IN YEARS. But they are not referring to the "time of the Gentiles." The only way to answer this specifically is to bring back the discussion of the 10 toes. This time element speaks directly to the 10 toes / horns / kings and its fourth progression. So, it would be too confusing to bring in up at this time. 

Sorry, I have no idea what 7 you are referring to here. I hope you are not referring to 9:27 (one week), since that represents or is speaking of the "last 7 years or the last week" of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It is meant to say that Jesus would confirm the New Covenant WITHIN OR DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. This last 7 years of the prophecy was specificially "set aside" by God for His Messiah to fufill His 6 requirements (9:24) DURING THE FINAL WEEK OR THE WEEK OF HIS MINISTRY.
 

The statue is found to be destroyed in verse 2:35 - the final threshing floor.

Agree... thank God.

i can certainly understand what you are saying and it wasn't until I studied Daniel that I believe there will and must be a "Damascus" experience that God will have on His people.

1) the NT clearly speaks of a "time of the Gentiles" and that it will come to an end. Why? Because when He deems it to end, He will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people to go out and preach the Word and the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL DID. Since after the 1st century the Word of God and the Testimonly of Jesus has been severely corrupted by the church. Paganism, idolatry, worshipping a man as God, changing His laws and commands, changing the Sabbath, on and on. It looks nothing like His church in the 1st century. God will open their eyes to preach the Gospel as it was meant to be taught and preached - which is nothing like today's christian churches.

2) It dovetails perfectly with God's timing of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The 4th Great and final Jubilee was to come to and end at the exact time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - exactly 3.5 years after the cross (the end of the final week in the prophecy). But because the Jews rejected their Messiah and crucified Him the counting of the final 4th Great Jubilee stopped. They were no longer in good standing with their God. They would be made "desolate" from their God for another 2000 years (cross = Abomination that caused their desolation). Consequently, there are still 3.5 years remaining to fulfill or complete the 4th Great Jubilee. This is NOT a requirement of God to fulfill - it can only be fulfilled by His people. When they fulfill this final 3.5 years, it will bring in the Messiah. Therefore, after God declares the time of the Gentiles is over, this is when He will turn to His people and open their eyes to the One they have pierced. They will go out in sackcloth and ashes mourning the One they rejected and pierced and will preach the Good News to the world for the last 3.5 years. It will complete the final 4th Great Jubilee and usher in the Messiah.

 

 

Thank you so much and God bless. If you would like me to have Amazon send my book on the NEW Interpreations of the book of Daniel directly to you so you will see the reasoning and details behind these interpretations (no less than 35 new critivcal interpretations), please send me your contact information in a PM. If you do not feel comfortable giving me your contact information, you might be able to give me a "safe" address to send it to you without revealing your home address. It will be no cost to you.

God bless, and I look forward to hearing back from you... again, it is literally impossible to properly respond to all of your terrific questions in this manner. It took me 5 years to unpack Daniel - it is not a short commentary but it is broken down by chapter and is an easy read (not necessarily a well written work because I am NO WRITER. My career was with numbers / spreadsheets, analysis, etc. Charlie

Can you fit the 2 witnesses into the Dan 2 timeline? Where and how would the 2 witnesses be placed inthe Dan 2 timeline?

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

I agree. God is much too great for us who are in the flesh to understand.

Even in the spirit after our death, we will spend eternity in awe of God, constantly amazed.

Nice coment.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

There are more than 4 kingdoms shown.

If you say that the clay is Israel in the feet and toes, where is the clay for the other kingdoms? The people of Israel existed during the first 3 kingdoms, if they are the clay, then where is the clay in the first three kingdoms? Why isn't the clay shown as being in the first 3? They existed at the same time. Babylon and Israel. Gold but no clay?

There are only 4 kingdoms in chapter 2 - all designated by their type of metal. In chapter 7, there are only 4 kingdoms represented by the 4 animals. In chapter 8, Daniel will reveal only the final 3 of the 4 kingdoms. Each will not be disccussed at the "kingdom" level. Instead, God will begin to speak of these remaining kingdoms as "horns" or powers. He is now having us focus on the individual level (power within these kingdoms) rather than the kingdom level. He is beginning to write in a more spiritual manner rather than in a physical / historical manner.

The Jews were always being discussed in the first 3 kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persia and Greece. But in the 4th kingdom, when they are help within the control of pagan Rome (within their feet) they will now be depicted as clay. In the OT, God is referred to as the "Potter" and His people the "clay" (Jeremiah). He never refers to the Gentiles as clay. 

God is writing the book of Daniel to His people not to the Gentiles. 

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The best that the clay shows is that the clay is non Roman gentile nations that rule over the children of Israel with Rome, while the Roman Empire falls apart and enters into the image beast toes era of the Vatican.

Look at the presentation in chapter 2 - the "blueprint" for God's plan of restoration for the Jews (after their return to Jerusalem), and then also for the Jews and the Gentiles after the cross. He gives us 4 and only 4 kingdoms where He will "run" His plan of all the events / actors that are important in His plan of salvation.

In chapter 2, He gives us (dream sequence verses) the big picture. There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms, and He only gives us 2 actual actions or events that will take place regarding these 4 kingdoms (2:34 and 2:35. All later Hebrew chapters in Daniel will provide us with a different set of symbols and expand on the details that will take place within these 4 kingdoms. But chapter 2 is the "blueprint" for His plan of salvation.

In 2:34, the Stone will be the only event mentioned against the 4 kingdoms that will strike the "feet" not the toes. This takes place at His first coming... this will break the clay from the iron feet and allow God to use those pieces of clay as He deems fit. The iron, whether in the legs or the feet represent pagan Rome. The clay in the feet represent either those Jews who would come to accept Jesus as their Messiah (pottery clay - Jesus could use them for His plan since they could / would be molded according to His wishes), or those that would continue to reject Him after the cross (ceramic clay - those that were hardened and would not accept Him).

Remember, this takes place in the early first century AD at the time of the coming Messiah. He will use the "pottery clay" to begin His church after the cross and they will go out into the world (then there is only one world  - pagan Rome), to preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus. Jesus would break apart His people, not in a military manner as His people expected, but in a non-military manner - by those of His people who would accept Him as their Messiah.

There is no reference in chapter 2 of the Gentiles other than at the "kingdom" level. 
 

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The ten toes are 10 kings Dan 7:24. Those 10 kings (The 10 is symbolic of complete division) are seen as remnants of the 1st Roman Empire beast. Their loyalty is to the image beast Vatican after the fall of the Roman Empire, so in a sense, they are still tied to the power of the beast Vatican.

No, I know this will be the first time you hear this, and it took me some time to uncover this interpretation (since it had to agree with ALL THE REST OF THE INTERPRETATIONS / VERSES WITHIN DANIEL), but th 10 toes are NOT 10 kings coming at the end of time or represent 10 nations like th EU, etc.

Again, keeping in mind the "blueprint" of chapter 2 is necessary for it defines the timing and the players / actors within this 12 chapter prophecy. And almost all of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to approximately 500 AD when the little horn will come to power. After those events are revealed, Daniel does mention the end time events but ONLY at a high level - they were really not meant for the Jews AT THE TIME OF THE MESSIAH. They were expecting the Messiah to arrive around the time He did come, so any detailed discussion of some future events some 2000 years in the future was / would not have any consideration or interest or meaning to the Jews. They expected His arrival and He would defeat the Romans at that time and bring in His earthly kingdom - obviously, in their mind, there would not be any need or thought for anything that would come after that.

This is why Daniel provides details ending with the coming of the little horn in around 500 AD. There is nothing found in Daniel for the coming 2000 years until the very end of times -His return spoken of in 2:35. Daniel is a book for the Jews at the time of His first coming. There are more than enough verses / prophecises that will be given to us after the cross in the NT  - especially, Revelation.

 

NOW - I don't believe I mentioned this to you before and it is truly a very new interpretation that took some time to uncover WHERE IT HAD TO FIT IN WITH THE REST OF DANIEL.

I am sure you agree that God has provided us with a few different pictures of the 4 kingdoms - chapter 2 = metal man, chapter 7 = wild animals, chapter 8 = horns or powers within the last 3 kingdoms. As He uses very different symbols for the same kingsdoms, He can reveal different characteristics for each of them- but He will never go outside the original 4 kingdoms found in chapter 2. In chapter 2, He provided us with the necessary physical boundaries and borders and actors that could be found ONLY within each of the 4 kingdoms. There was / is absolutely NO bleeding of any actor or event into the next kingdom. And this is critical since it gives us firm guidelines in the later chapters of Daniel to ensure we do NOT bring in any additional actor or kingdom into His plan of salvation (this can be readily seen in chapters 7,8, 9 and especially 11).

But this very unique method of presenting the 4 kingdoms using different symbols will also be used when discussing or revealing the 10 toes. And this is where everyone misses the true meaning of the toes AS IT PROGRESSESS THROUGH THESE SAME 4 KINGDOMS. Did you ever ask why God would use 4 different symbols in the book of Daniel for the toes? Why not just call or label them kings from the beginning in chapter 2? 

It is for the exact same reason He identifies AND separates His people as clay in chapter 2. These two symbols BOTH BELONG WITHIN THE JEWISH NATION. 

The clay represents His people held captive within pagan Rome. Notice the clay is found within the iron feet PRIOR TO THE STONE STRIKING THE FEET. Therefore the clay was in existence at the time of pagan Rome and before the FIRST OF THE TWO EVENTS IN CHAPTER 2 WOULD TAKE -PLACE (2:34 comes AFTER God revealed the 4 kingdoms). However, the 10 toes were also there  or in existence at the same time as the clay - within the feet of pagan Rome. Meaning both had to be in existence BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND CAN NOT REPRESENT ANY 10 KINGS THAT WOULD COME ABOUT IN THE FUTURE - ANY FUTURE AFTER THE CROSS. They were already found in pagan Rome before the cross. 

When  we move to chapter 7, God uses different symbols for the 4 kingdoms AND HE uses different symbols for the 10 toes as well. Why?

After the "stone" stikes the feet and breaks apart the clay from the iron, we see in chapter 7 the 4th beast kingdom is now depicted as an "indescrbable beast." But what is important is that the 10 toes are now described as "coming out of the 4th beast kingdom." Meaning, the "stone" broke apart the iron and the clay elements and ALSO caused the 10 toes to now be found OUTSIDE OF THE FEET. They are no longer encased within the feet of pagan Rome but on the outside coming out of pagan Rome. Now, God refers to them as 10 horns or powers. Who can they possibly be? There is ONLY ONE ANSWER. The "potters clay" would now be free to begin preaching the Good News to the world - and they would go out into the pagan empire. These 10 toes / now 10 horns or powers would also be sent out into the Gentile world at the same time the "pottery clay" would preach the Good News. Now, God is referring to them as "horns or powers" because they would indeed have immense power. Power to change lives among all peoples of the world. The 10 toes / the 10 horns / and later the 10 kings are all the same entity but God is revealing them in different ways AS THEY TRAVEL THROUGH THE 4TH KINGDOM BEAST. The 10 toes / horns have been freed from the iron feet are th 10 commandments of God. They were present before th cross, after the cross and they will continue until His second coming. His Word and His 10 commandments would be preached to the Gentiles and bring power to those who accepted His Word and the Testimony of Jesus (side bar - later discussion, but I believe these two are the two witnesses of God in Revelation - another day).

The Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah would begin His church and would be quite successful. The many Gentiles that would accept Him as their Savior would also accept His 10 commandments. There was great power and strength in these never before heard of "principles" within the Gentile world. The many Gentiles would soon learn just how powerful this growing church would become and it would not take more than a few hundred years before the Gentiles would take control over the Christian church. They (bishops and priestly heirarchy) would set up a "military like" system of rulership within the movement and the power they would obtain would be immense. They would yield these 10 commandments against their enemies and destroy any that failed to follow their interpretation of them or their supremecy. But as long as they were still subsurbient to pagan Rome, God would refer to them as 10 horns or powers in chapter 7. But later in chapter 7, we will find the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome would be slain and its body was destoryed. Now, this represents the period when the bishops of this movement would take control over all securlad and church matters. The bishop of Rome would win out over the other powerfubishops of Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch. The bishop of Rome would gain supremency and become the papacy and papal Rome. After this, we also see in chapter 7, God will now refer to them as "10 kings." Because these kings are found to now "sit atop the 4th kingdom beast" while they were only "coming out" of the 4th kingdom beast after the cross (infant stage if you will). Now, they are seen as kings in their progression from toes within the feet, but they are controlled by the church - this powerful bishop who will become the pope of papal Rome - God will refer to him as the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8. 

Therefore, the 10 toes / the 10 horns / the 10 kings and later on God will refer to them one more time as the "Saints of the Most High," all speak of the 10 commandments that travel through the 4th kingdom as the church moves through the 4th kingdom. Both the little horn and the 10 kings will continue until the end of time.

And to answer your question in advance, the 3 kings that were "plucked up" BY THE LITTLE HORN IN CHAPTER 7 represent the first 3 of the 10 commandments. They will claim to be equal to God (1st commandment), they will bring in idol worship (2nd commandment), they will use God's name in vain (3rd commandment - they will speak of Jesus as God but in name only - they claim one can only get to salvation through the Catholic church - and so many other false teachings against God).

I am sure you can easily see why it took 5 years for me to unpack Daniel. It is so complicated... but I was not like most of you folks. I had no knowledge of the book of Daniel prior to this study so I did not have to unlearn anything - just read the two general interpretations that are found in today's accepted interpretations and try and interpret these verses using their intepretations on my own.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

But that does not mean that they are ethnic Romans, that is, descended from the Roman people themselves, genetically tied to actual people who lived in the city of Rome in that period.

History shows that Rome did divide into different kingdoms on an ethnic basis, with some loyalty to Rome as a religious leader.

Please see above.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

So looking back now, we count the kingdoms on an ethnic basis, such as France, Italy, Spain, Greece, etc., but in the statue, we only see 10.

If those nations are counted now, we see that there are far more than 10 and that has changed over the centuries.

Again, God is not interested in any other kingdoms but the 4 that HE HAS IDENTIFIED WITHIN HIS STORY / PROPHECY. Certainly, there have been thousands of new nations and kingdoms in the world, but God has designed His prophecy and included only those nations and actors that He can use to reveal His plan of salvation. Daniel is not a history book and one of the two most important flaws in today's accepted interpretations are:

1) Daniel must be interpreted using the book of Daniel and those relevant verses found in the OT ONLY. The book of Daniel was written for the Jews at the time for the  coming Messiah,

2) The second reason for the misinterpretations is that most of these verses  / prophecies speak of the coming Messiah - they are not to be interpreted as one reads, study, interprets our history books. God is not interested in our history books.  

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

So the statue, looking back from the present, is showing more than 4 kingdoms, when you count the toes as individual kingdoms of ethnic diversity.

Then add the clay which could be showing the same type of division. Is the clay on each toe a different gentile nation? Are there 2 or more different types of clay? Are they one nation or many different nations?

Please see above but also continue to ask any questions that are still confusing you.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

 

Pagan Rome was in existence long before 63 BC. That is the date that Rome invaded and began their beast reign over the children of Israel, ending the rule of Greece.

I don't know about the exact dates of pagan Rome... but I do believe they became the world power around that time. They had to be in existence at the time of Christ... clearly hated by the Jews and pagan Rome certainly destroyed most nations at that time.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The gift of the Holy Spirit kingdom of Israel began in 33 AD on Pentecost Acts 2:38.

Verses 2:37-38 speak only of the 1st kingdom of gold - Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon. Verse 2:36 begins the "dream sequence verses" (big picture - blueprint).

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Is the day of Pentecost shown as the stone striking the feet? Or is the day of Pentecost before the first division in the legs, in order to cause the first division?

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Jesus was crucified within the first 3.5 years of His ministry. His ministry begain on the first day of the 70th week of weeks prophecy in chapter 9. He was baptized and by John and anointed by His Father on the first day in the Jordan.

Some 50 days after the cross, God would send His Holy Spirit to the 3000 in Jerusalem. Now, they would go out into the world preachng the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The Roman Empire divided into east and west in the third century. So if the kingdom caused the first break or division, then that would put the day of Pentecost about 1 inch ish from the beginning of the iron.

I think you may be looking at these verses as they apply strictly to the secular 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom was indeed divided - and it came about because pagan Rome came to its demise and would be replaced by papal Rome. But these secular events were all caused by the cross. The cross would symbolically separate the pottery clay from the ceramic clay and the cross would symbolically allow those pottery clay to take the 10 toes (commandments) out into the Roman Empire.

Remember, if we try and look at this in a more spiritual manner, the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome would come to its end around 467 AD. Also, if you look in chapter 7, God declares there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of "the earth or the sea." Meaning, it was God who determined what kingdoms would be found within His prophetic story. You will also notice the 4th beast kingdom of the little horn (papal Rome) in chapter 7 DID NOT COME OUT OF THE EARTH OR THE SEA. They or he would come out of the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome - meaning, he was not a kingdom that was of the 4 ESTABLISHED BY GOD.

And most importantly, from a non-secular view, this 4th kingdom would indeed be "divided." The earthly kingdom would be replaced by the kingdom of God. God came to establish or "set up" His earthly kingdom. 

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Then the stone striking shows Jesus coming for the kingdom at the 2nd resurrection/rapture (resur/rapt), which is followed by the last judgment and the new earth (Rev 20:11).

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The purpose of the "Stone" striking the feet AT HIS FIRST COMING was to set up  His church. It would not be in a military manner but through the cross. Ask yourself what had caused the breaking apart of the iron and the clay (as well as the 10 commandments) held within the clutches of the symbolic feet? 

You really can not place  or properly interpret ANY OF THE COMING VERSES IN THE LATER HEBREW CHAPTERS unless the stone struck the feet at the time of His first coming (I am not saying you can't because that is exactly what most have done, but that is also why there are different interpretations, no consensus among the scholars and why the entire 12 chapters do not present a seamless, unbeliveable 12 chapter prophecy with no contradictions (imo).

Another comment re: this... where did this little horn come from? He is not found in chapter 2 - the "blueprint" for God's plan of salvation that must be honored in all the coming chapters in Daniel. He is only found to "be" AFTER THE CROSS WHEN THE CHURCH HAS BEEN ESTABISHED AND HE IS INTENT ON GAINING POWER AND CONTROL OVER THIS CHURCH. His genesis is from those Gentiles that would accept Jesus and the 10 commandments offered by the Jews (pottery clay). They would start off or join this church at the early stages of the church, and then gain power over this church - this was not God's plan for His church. But He would prophecize the coming of this evil one who would take over and corrupt His church.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Dan 2:35, "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to pieces together, ...".

If this happens after the stone strikes, when does it happen after the stone strikes?

Again, there is a 2000 year separation between 2:34 an 2:35. At the time of the end, those that have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah (clay of all peoples) as well as any and all other elements / kingdoms / nations, etc., on the earth will be completely destroyed. This did not happen at the cross.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

What causes the statue to fall and completely break in pieces? I mean, if the stone striking the feet doesn't cause the statue to fall at that time and the timeline continues into the toes, then when does the statue fall completely into pieces? What causes the statue to fall, if the stone doesn't cause it? Where is that event shown in the Dan 2 timeline, if the stone doesn't break the statue into chaff when it strikes?

Again. 2:35 represents the end of all things. Verse 2:34 represents His first coming and His setting up His church. At the end of all things, God will return and destroy all the elements of the earth - 2:35.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

 

Jerusalem and Israel were not restored at the time of Jesus. The statue of Dan 2 shows that the times of the Roman gentiles domination over the children of Israel was continuing at that time. So Israel and Jerusalem could not be restored during the time of the Dan 2 statue times of the gentiles.

No, the book of Daniel reveals God's plan of restoration in the 70 weeks of years prophecy. They would leave Babylon in 536 BC. Then, at the time of Artarxerxes decree in 457 BC, this would begin the period of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It would be a consecutive period of 490 literal years to end in 33 /34 AD. Everything was restored by the end of the 69th week of the prophecy except for one piece of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant. And this is why the last 7 years, the final week was set aside for the Messiah to fulfill / complete His 6 God given mission (9:24) and serve as the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant (only He could represent the presence of God in the sanctuary).

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Jerusalem and Israel could not be restored until the times of the gentile trampling of Jerusalem was fulfilled, Lk 21:24.

Jerusalem was indeed completely restored. Both parties - the Jews and the Messiah fulfilled their respective obligations within the 70 weeks of years prophecy.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls, the toes end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The toes ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was controlled by Israel.

 

I agree partially. Because Daniel is focused on God's plan of restoration for His people and His city, it certainly does begin at 606 BC - when the Babylonians conquer Jerusalem. 

But the toes (10 commandments) will not end ever - they will be (imo) one of the two witnesses that will be called back to heaven before the tribulation period. 

Hope some of this makes sense to you and I apologize in advance if it does not... again. it is impossible to try and present these truly very different and new intrerpretations in this short responses. Only when they are read, studied and considered within the commentary can one see how they connect together and each interpretation fits with the later verses  / interpretations with these 12 chapters.

 

 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

Can you fit the 2 witnesses into the Dan 2 timeline? Where and how would the 2 witnesses be placed inthe Dan 2 timeline?

 

 

 

 

I have not studied Revelation, however, just based on Daniel, I believe they might be the Word of God (His 10 commandments) and the Testimony of Jesus.

[tatwo]

On 3/25/2024 at 1:25 AM, Charlie744 said:

I have not studied Revelation, however, just based on Daniel, I believe they might be the Word of God (His 10 commandments) and the Testimony of Jesus.

This is the best way to pursue Christ...around and around for months rehashing the same ideas, concepts, contexts etc?

If that is you...fine...meanwhile the beast is enlarging itself in your mind unbeknownst to you.

I told you so long ago...the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two elements of the "Royal Priesthood"...the King of kings and the High Priest on one throne...and that is the throne of God. All you need to understand is who is it actually that sits on that throne...because you clearly do not know.

On 3/25/2024 at 1:24 AM, Charlie744 said:

I agree. God is much too great for us who are in the flesh to understand.

Even in the spirit after our death, we will spend eternity in awe of God, constantly amazed.

No Charlie...this is not a nice comment...its a mixture of truth and error.

Yes..."God is much too great for us who are in the flesh to understand." However those who are in the "flesh" are not "in Christ"...if you do not have the Holy Spirit you are none of His. One cannot be in the flesh and be in Christ...Christ is a Spirit man...He is eternal...one can only be in Christ via the Holy Spirit.

If you wait to be "in the spirit" until after you die...you will never be in Kingdom of God. That is why when we turn from our wicked ways by repentance we "die" to that old sinful nature...we are then symbolically "buried" with Him in baptism...and "resurrected" in Him as we come up out of the "water/Word/blood" we then have a eternal spiritual existence "in Christ as Christ."

If that basic premise is not grasped or understood this entire exitance is futile regardless how much one thinks they know.