The Lords 2 anointed witnesses

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

What happens when the trampling ends? (Jerusalem is restored, 1967).

“When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.” (Rev 11:7 NASB)

Think parallel to the life of the Lord Yahshua Christ in His earthly journey…it is simply a replay except that the son of God is now made up of the Head the Lord Yahshua Christ and His many membered Body from every tribe tongue people and nation...that God has built over the course of some 2000 years…He grows up and becomes a “a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” 

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 70 AD temple was adequate for the old covenant Law and the Prophets, but was not under the new covenant.

Yes I agree...

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

The altar is the "heart" of the temple. At the time that Revelation was written, 85 AD- 96 AD ish, where was the altar of worship for the believing children of Israel? 

Well abcdef…I suppose let me share something with you about how I view Israel today…this may ruffle some feathers…ancient Israel was a “type or shadow” of what God had always intended to do. For example if I was walking along and I saw your shadow before I saw you…is that the same as seeing you? No…I could see your form and understand that you were there and that you were coming…but it would not completely represent the person that you actually are.

Ancient Israel was never intended to be the fullness of God’s intension for this creation…no…I mean look at what they did…save a “remnant” over their time as a nation in antiquity…most of them were condemned because of their rebellion and their worship of idols and false Gods…and this over and over. Consider their standing in the eyes of God in the court of Pilate…when those who spoke for Israel before Pilate said at the crucifixion trial…”We have no king but Caesar”…when they knew that their King would come through the blood line of king David…which Yahshua did. Treacherous hateful people…save a remnant.

This nation was perhaps the most ungodly nation on the earth in that day…the Lord Yahshua told them…”Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!” He said “your house” that is not “His house”…it was the “house of Israel” that He laid to waste in “desolation” and that is exactly what happened…the word desolation comes from the same word that “wilderness” comes from...Israel was never more than a shadow or form of Gods ultimate intention.

The kingdom of God today has no Jews or gentiles…no slaves or freeman…no male or female…because it is not a temporal…natural kingdom. It is and will always be a spiritual nation…Spirit…not flesh…when the Lord Yahshua walked the earth…He was a Jewish man…when He resurrected…was it as a Jew?

No…no…no…not at all He is the “Head” of a “New Creation”…you people are going to have to come into this understanding or you will continue in your deception.

The answer to your question..."where was the altar of worship for the believing children of Israel?" In the spiritual kingdom of God as noted by John.

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

We might agree that the altar of worship was the spiritual altar of Jesus before the throne and not the 70 AD temple that was destroyed.

I agree abcdef…:)

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

What was the altar that the unbelieving broken branches children of Israel worshiped at? Was it adequate under the new covenant?

Well the way this is worded…for me this is difficult abcdef…the alter of sacrifice…or the alter of incense…one is blood and guts and the other was prayer…no it was not adequate under the new covenant.

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

Did God judge, measure, the Temple building altar? Was it adequate for the new covenant? Matt 27:51. 

He did…they failed…everything including their “holy city” was razed…destroyed…it was an absolutely horrible battle…one of the worst in history. However they were only a “picture” of God’s desire…never the fulfillment of it obviously. The temple, the altar and those who worship there from Revelation 11…those are the apple of the Lord eye…they are adequate for the new covenant.

The "Lord of glory" has washed his hands with a national, natural, ethnic Israel...save a remnant like every other nation in the earth.

They were sent to the place of desolation...the wilderness...just like the woman in Revelation 12...natural Israel was merely a type of her...she becomes the harlot.

[Jaydub]

8 hours ago, abcdef said:

Zech 4,

V 6, Shows that the vision was the Word of the Lord to Zerubbabel.

What is God saying to him? What is the meaning of the vision message?

What is happening with Zerubbabel that God sent him the message? 

What might be the reaction of Zerubbabel to the message?

Thank you both for the discussion of the  measuring of the temple, I had not given it much thought and found it very informative 

I believe the message to Zerubbabel was to build the temple. not by power but by my spirit  says the Lord almighty. What are you O mighty mountain before Zerubbabel, you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of God bless it. This is not by power or mans will, but by the Spirit  Gods will, that this temple will be built. we are told that men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in Zerubbabel hand.

We are seeing Zechariah vision of the two anointed ones coincides with the building of the temple. We see temple worship, the Law, the commandments. The witnesses, the anointed ones or Gods family, the tree and the branches are witnesses to Gods word. Its interesting to note, in Zechariah there is only one candle stick. Zechariah vision comes at the start of building of the temple and Johns vision comes at the destruction of the temple and is the beginning of the new covenant. In Johns vision there are two candlesticks. The new covenant, spiritual worship, spiritual temple the gospels, The Word. We are that light. The Holy Spirit pours into us so that we can proclaim his good news

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

 

In scripture we see where our bodies are mentioned to be like a Temple for God to dwell in by the Holy Spirit.  And we also see the mention of the word house in scripture, like the house of David, or the house of Pharoah, or the house of Saul, or even the house of the Lord.  The word “house” in scripture can also mean to be like a “household” being made up of many family members.

So if David said “he shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever” it could also be like saying “he shall dwell in the household of the Lord forever”.  So the word house in scripture does not always mean a brick and mortar, or wood structure; and neither does the word Temple always refer to those made by the hands of man.

Notice what Paul says here….Galatians 6:10

“As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of “the household of faith.”

Ephesians 2:19 “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of “the household of God;”

In this we can see how the House of God is made up of many members of the faith, like a household.  Notice how Jesus mentions being the master of “the house”, and his disciples being those of “the household”…

Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of “the house” Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of “his household?”

So when Jesus said he was going to build a Church, he was not talking about using brick, mortar, and wood etc.

The Holy Apostles understood “this house” to be spiritual, and made up of many members, like a “household” of faith as Paul described in Galatians 6:10.

Peter says in 1 Peter 2:4-6 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone,disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a “spiritual house”, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.”

 

This living stone that is the chief cornerstone of the house of God is of course referring to Christ.  As Jesus said….Matthew 16:18

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

This is the sure house that God said He would build (not man).

1 Samuel 2:35 “And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.”

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 5 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:”

Notice above how Paul refers to our bodies like a “earthly house” and as a “tabernacle”. 

 

Now let's go to prophecy….

Amos 9:11 “In that day will I raise upthe tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:”

Notice in Acts this same verse is quoted concerning the coming of Christ in  Acts 15:16-17 “After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”

This prophecy quoted by James had to do with the coming of Christ and salvation coming to the Gentiles. But what is the tabernacle of David that has fallen down, and that was to be raised up?

Now David had constructed a tabernacle, or tent, to place the Ark of the Testimony in, and that is where David made burnt offerings and peace offerings.  But I don't believe this prophecy is about Jesus Christ raising up a literal tent, or tabernacle.  I believe this prophecy is about Christ raising up the “household” of David that had fallen.  

This would be those who were resurrected right after Jesus was resurrected.  And I believe this would be the start point of this building process by God to construct the House or Temple that He would dwell in forever, with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone of this “spiritual house”; which is still being constructed by God using “living stones” as Peter said.

We are, as is written in Ephesians 2:20-22 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

This is the Temple that the Lord has built for Himself to dwell in forever.  Peace and God bless

Brother, I agree with everything that you have said here.

Is the Rev 11 temple and altar, the eternal temple and altar that we approach in Jesus?

I don't think that the Rev 11 temple is the eternal temple, made of living stones, because of the circumstances and events that surround the Rev 11 temple, the trampling by the gentiles or the wandering in sack cloth, for example. 

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There was a temple before 70 AD. It had an altar and a court of the gentiles. 

John 2:16, says that Jesus called the 33 AD temple, "My Father's house". 

One question might be, "Is the temple in Rev 11, the 70 AD ish temple, altar, and people? Or is the Rev 11 temple, present day, all Christians, or something? 

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I believe this temple, altar, and people were the 70 AD temple.

You may agree that the 70 AD temple would be judged to be not necessary for the new covenant. This would include the altar. It's part in the covenants was ended when the veil was torn from top to bottom, Matt 27:51. 

The result of this rejection of the kingdom by the broken branches ended with the Israel being scattered to the gentile nations. 

This is images of that rejection and aftermath, with the 2 witnesses being faithful flesh children of Israel.

Before they are killed, they return to be in Jerusalem.

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When you think of the "church", do you think primarily of the children of Israel?

Or do you picture the "church" as all gentile?

Rev 11, I believe, is the view of the "church" as primarily Israel believers.

Remember that the "church" is really, The New Covenant Pentecost Kingdom of Israel, that we are adopted into.

Primarily Israel and Jesus, that is what the Bible is about. That is what the Revelation is about, Israel, the children of Israel.

To automatically assume that it only speaking about the gentiles as Israel distorts the images.

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Edited December 7, 2023 by abcdef

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

Thank you and you did…to your opinion and that’s fine…

Ideas are like American footballs, you give them a good kick, and when they land, you never know which way they will bounce. 

Give our ideas a good kick, and see that the answer might be different than we thought that it would be. 

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

my point was that what was being “measured” was not a physical building or any physical part of a building…

You said that it was people who were being judged, I agree. The 70 AD temple was part of the judgment against the unbelieving children of Israel.

You may agree that Jesus spoke about the judgment on the unbelieving children of Israel and the temple with it's altar.

The 70 AD temple was judged unnecessary when the veil was torn when Jesus died. Mk 15:38.

Jesus called the 33 AD temple "His Father's house", Jn 2:16.

So the temple was necessary according to the Law. That building was judged by Jesus and His judgment was told to His Apostles, destruction.

After that, Jesus said that there would be a time of the gentiles when Jerusalem was "trampled". Lk 21:24. 

Rev 11 seems to indicate the same event.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

what was being measured was nothing less than the spiritual son of the living God…the many membered Body of Christ…the living temple of God in which He inhabits…hence the “naos” the most holy place.

Is the temple and altar in Rev 11, the eternal temple in heaven or a material temple and people?

How is it that the gentiles tread the holy city underfoot, if it is the eternal city, in heaven?

 

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

The outer court is the “hieron” the physical temple the place of the gentiles also know as heathens…

In the 70 AD temple the court of the gentiles was for gentiles who worshiped the God of Israel.

This is the same in Rev 11. The court of believing gentiles would not be hostile to the new covenant. After Israel in general rejected the new covenant, it might be assumed that many of the gentiles of the court would become Christians. The gentiles were still not allowed into the 70 AD ish temple even after conversion.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

they are in the proximity of the Body of Christ who is in the holy place...but are not of the Body in the court of the gentiles. In fact they will “trample the holy city under foot” meaning

Note the separate groups, gentiles and the people who worship at the altar.

The gentiles did tread the holy city, material Jerusalem, underfoot for 1900 years. This treading by the gentiles was by both unbelieving gentiles and believing gentiles. But the contrast is that the flesh children of Israel did not have control over Jerusalem until 1967. 

That is when the 2 witnesses return to testify, when the people of Israel return to control Jerusalem.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

…to persecute the son of God.

Both believing and unbelieving gentiles tread the holy city. But not the children of Israel.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

Think sheep and goats or the wheat and tares…they grow together but the “measuring” is the separating of the holy and the profane.

The separating of the holy and the profane, that is exactly what happened in 70 AD. The profane were killed or taken as slaves and the holy Isrel fled into the wilderness for 1900 years ish.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

The sons of God are obedient...the slaves and orphans of Satan rage on in their jealous lust and pride.

yes

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

They are found in rebellion and disobedience because they will not submit to the standard of measurement…as they resist the correction and judgment they will continually worship the deceiver

A good description of unbelieving Israel at the time of Jesus.

 

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

and the harlot…not the One true living God…but they act like they are spiritual…you know abcdef those who have a form of godliness but deny its power?

Unbelieving children of Israel. Holding to the Law and rejecting the new covenant.