The Lords 2 anointed witnesses

[Stewardofthemystery]

The Lord gave us a “sign of time” in the number 42 concerning the first coming of Christ.

In Numbers chapter 23. We see Balaam was commanded by God to have Balak build 7 altars, and he was to offer a bullock and a ram on each of the 7 altars; or 14 animals total.

This act was to be performed 3 times. In this we see 3x7 altars=21 total altars. And we also see 3 x 14 animals= 42 animals total, or 21 being rams and 21 being bullocks.=42

Another “sign”of this is shown in Job chapter 42 verse 8 where Job is told by God to offer 7 bullocks and 7 rams for Jobs 3 friends. Again we see 3 x 7=21 and also both animals combined would be 3 x 14=42

I believe both these were “signs given”to represent the “42 generations”leading up to the birth of Jesus.

Notice In Matthew 1:17 we see a similar sign as the previous ones.
 

Here we see 3 groups of 14 generation periods, or 3 x 14=42

God uses many similitudes, symbolisms, types, shadows, and patterns for those who can see them.
 

This 42 generation period leading up to Jesus’ birth was roughly about 2,000 years.

This 42 generation period was when “the law and the prophets testified”all the way up to John the Baptist; just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) would also testify in all his anointed saints before the second coming of Christ.
 

The patterns repeat.

[tatwo]

16 hours ago, abcdef said:

This is images of that rejection and aftermath, with the 2 witnesses being faithful flesh children of Israel.

Before they are killed, they return to be in Jerusalem.

In the “Natural – Spiritual” paradigm from an earlier post…the physical 70AD temple is the “natural temple” and the temple in Revelation 11 is the “spiritual temple” of God…the Body of Christ…in His “spiritual body” there is no longer any distinction between “Jew and Gentile, free and slave, male or female” those are purely “natural” designations of the “flesh and blood” which cannot inherit the kingdom of God…in other words His heavenly temple yet on the earth today is what is presented by John in Revelation 11.

To those who have not had this “natural…then…spiritual” Truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit…to them the principal is impossible…it must be revealed via the Holy Spirit to man’s spirit…we must learn to ask our living God for these things…He loves His sons.

Let’s consider Paul here in Ephesians 2…Paul is speaking of the two “natural” groups…the “uncircumcision - gentiles” and the “circumcision – Jews” that includes all of humanity…let’s look at what he says and see if we can understand him. Emphasis mine…

“But now “in Christ Jesus” you who formerly were far off [gentile] have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups[Jews and gentiles] into one [one new man] and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh [His sacrifice] the enmity, [doing away with the “division” that separated the Jews and gentiles] which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, [referring to Israel’s Law and the ordinances] so that in Himself He might make the “two into one new man”, [stating that…once one is “in Christ who is a Spirit” he is no longer recognized by the Lord Yahshua Christ as either Jew or gentile] thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in “one body” to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.”[Very powerful passage…it was Yahshua who was once a Jew in the flesh…who upon His sacrificial death…breaks down the barrier (enmity) between the “Jew and the gentile”…in Himself...hence “in Christ” there is no longer Jew or gentile] (Eph 2:13-16 NASB)

Thus…”in Christ” which is the “spiritual temple of God – the place where the Spirit of God dwells - naos” one is no longer “Jew or gentile, free or slave, male or female”…simply because our Lord Yahshua Christ put an end to all of that Himself…as God…that those who are “in Him” have become “one with His Father, Him and each other...spiritually” thereby constituting the “Body of Christ” which includes it’s “Head.”

To those around here who can receive these things…thank the Lord Yahshua…yes I am aware what this does to the predominant and prevailing Christian doctrines…it throws them down and it will ultimately destroy them as is prophesied…revealing the living Truth known as Christ…the Son of the living God…are you ready?

It will look nothing like what your church taught you...

[abcdef]

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

When you come to understand the “start point” and the “end point” of this sign of time (42 months) then you will come to the conclusion that there is no way possible this time period is to be taken literally, but is a “sign of time” that is to be spiritually discerned.

I agree completely.

I hope this post will clarify your understanding of the timelines. You are on the right track. Sadly, I must tell you that the conclusion is bitter, as the scroll is sweet and then bitter.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Here is a post I wrote concerning the start point, and the end point of this sign of time….

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Many believe the 42 months mentioned in Revelation should be taken literally, like a literal 3 and a half year tribulation period.

But I believe the 42 months is a sign (symbolism) of time which should be “spiritually discerned.”

The Revelation symbols represent literal entities and events. 

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Let’s look at why this 42 months, or 1,260 days is not a literal 3 and half years, but is rather symbolic of time.

The 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 are sometimes mixed up with other similar numbers that are about different subjects. This distorts the timelines by trying to fit them in where they do not belong.

The 3 1/2 times, 42 months, and 1260 days are seen in Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 11:2&3, Rev 12:6&14, Rev 13:5. 

Dan 7:25, The angel says that it will be 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people is scattered. This would be the first 3 1/2 times, from Babylon to 70 AD.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored, 1967.

So 7 times would be from Babylon until Jerusalem is restored.

*It extremely important to note, that this is the complete times of the gentiles as seen in the Dan 2 statue, and the time of the 4 beast nations in Dan 7.

So these numbers are showing the time from the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon until Jerusalem is restored.

--

What is the greatest question that the children of Israel wanted to know from Babylon to 1967?

When will Jerusalem be restored to Israel?

The Dan 2 statue, the 4 beasts of Dan 7, Jesus Lk 21:24, and the Revelation, all center around the answer to this question.

The answer is 7 times, or 2 time periods of 3 1/2 each. 

---

The reason for the use of months and days is to show which 3 1/2 times that is being referred to in the passages.

The two 3 1/2 times are not equal times in the years of men.

Babylon- 70 AD, 600 yrs ish.

70 AD- 1967, 1900 yrs ish.

The months and days are meant to show that it is the second 3 1/2 times that is being referred to. 

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

In Revelation 12:5-6 we read “5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

0 AD-33 AD ish, The birth of Jesus and His ascension fix the dates. The faithful woman Israel, Rev 12.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” (1,260 days or 42 months)

The second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD-1967. The faithful woman is attacked by Rome.

She is the kingdom/church made up of the children of Israel. The faithful kingdom/church gentiles are seen as her children in Rev 12:17, who did not flee because they were not genetic children of Israel.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Most would agree this verse is speaking about the birth of Jesus Christ, and his being caught up to God, and the woman being the sign of the spiritual Israel, because these are those who “ have the testimony of Jesus Christ” as seen in Rev. 12:17.

There are 2 branches of the kingdom/church, natural and grafted.

The Dan 2 and 7 passages are focused of the children of Israel and not the gentiles, who are seen as enemies who dominate them.

It is the same in the Revelation. It is focused on the flesh children of Israel, both believing (Rev 12) and unbelieving (Rev 17). The Rev 12 woman is believing Israel in the flesh who flee from Rome. The children who do not flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations are her adopted gentile flesh souls Rev 12:17.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

But no matter who you believe the woman represents, the timing of when she fled into the wilderness is shown to be right after the “man-child” was caught up to God and to His throne.”

Your observation should be obvious to everybody, 33 AD, anchors the timeline.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

This time is confirmed again here in Revelation 12:14 “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

70 AD-1967.

 What happens when the 3 1/2 times and her time in the wilderness of the gentile nations is ended?

She returns to restore Jerusalem.

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

So now we have this same 1,260 days shown as “time, times, and half a time” which is also mentioned in the book of Daniel.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

This prophecy given to Daniel had to do with “the days of vengeance on the Jews” and ending with the “time of trouble such as the world has never seen” (Daniel 12:1) Which Jesus also mentioned in Matthew 24:21.

Lk 21:20-24, Jesus said the Jerusalem would be trampled until the times of the gentiles was over. He is talking about the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD-1967.

( The restoration of Jerusalem IS the sign of His coming)

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

And this time of 1,260 days was to begin with the destruction of the Temple,

yes

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

(AOD being set up) and this time period would also run 1335 days all the way to the redemption of Gods people as Daniel was told in verse 1

The 1335 days is already completed by the scattering of 70 AD.

The 1335 days is not part of the 3 1/2 times calculation and is about a different subject, Antiochus.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

“at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book of Life.”

Dan 12:1-3, Jesus is the deliverer. The first resurrection was not Jesus alone. When He resurrected He brought with Him all the souls in paradise from the OT times, Eph 4:7-10. They are the ones seen in heaven with Jesus and John at the writing of the Revelation.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

And then there is mention of the resurrection as mentioned here in Daniel 12:2 “2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Then this time is again confirmed in Daniel 12:7 “7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”

Dan 12:7, All the things in the last vision will be completed by 70 AD, including the 1335 days.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

So according to the word of the Lord, all those things mentioned to Daniel shall be finished in that same time period. 

Yes

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Now let’s look at how this time period is also shown as the same amount of time given to “the fullness of the Gentiles.”

The "times of the gentiles" is different from the "fullness of the gentiles".

The times of the gentiles is about Jerusalem and it's restoration to Israel.

The fullness of the gentiles is about the conversion of gentiles into the kingdom/church.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Jesus spoke of “after the tribulation of those days” in accordance with the tribulation period of the Jews and also for “the fullness of the Gentiles.” ( “that all things which are written may be fulfilled” Luke 21:22)

In Luke 21:24 Jesus says “ And they(the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until “the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

So how long was the times of the Gentiles? Well, were given that time as well in scripture.

Revelation 11:2 “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This confirms the Gentile ingathering period, the tribulation of those days, and all those things being fulfilled as listed in the book of Daniel could not possibly be a literal 42 months, or 1,260 days, but rather it is a sign of time.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

We also know by Paul’s words that this time of the Gentiles being fulfilled would be marked by ungodliness being removed from Jacob.

Will every single person, all over the planet, who is a child of Israel, suddenly accept Jesus? No.

According to what the Revelation says, in my opinion, there will still be a great many children of Israel who will not accept Jesus.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

I think that when the fullness of the gentiles is come in, that it is about the time that Jerusalem is restored. Many children of Israel have accepted Jesus since 1967

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

So we know by scripture the “start point” of the Gentile period, and when the abomination that desolated the temple mount and Jerusalem was in fact set up in 70 a.d.

Yes, 70 AD, AoD by Titus in the temple.

Son of Perdition, son of Caesar, and becomes Caesar.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

And we also know the second coming and resurrection of the dead in Christ has not happened yet,

Soon, very soon, it could be years, but it could only be months.

According to the 2 witnesses prophecy, when Jerusalem falls, when the 2 witnesses are killed, it will be 3 1/2 days until Jesus comes for the kingdom at the resur/rapt, and then this planet is fire. Bitter.

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

as we also know ungodliness has not yet been removed from Israel, which happens right before the Lords second coming.

Yes, when the ungodliness is removed, will Jerusalem be restored?

 

18 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

So people need to rethink this “sign of time” because there is no way it can be a taken at face value and as literal.

Just more food for thought, Peace.

Please understand this, that the beast of the Revelation is the 4th beast of Dan 7, Rome.

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I'm sorry that this post is so extensive, but you have observed the most important factors in the timelines that almost all people cannot reason out.

--

 

[tatwo]

16 hours ago, abcdef said:

After that, Jesus said that there would be a time of the gentiles when Jerusalem was "trampled". Lk 21:24. 

Rev 11 seems to indicate the same event.

Not likely abcdef…the Luke 21:24 event likely happened in 70AD as you so often state…right?

John is said to have written the Revelation of Yahshua Christ in the latter part of the first century…it is very likely that his writings occurred after the destruction of the earthly temple in Jerusalem.

In Revelation 1:1 John writes that he was shown…”the things which must soon take place”… speaking of the letters to the seven churches of Asia. Let’s consider John a bit later in Revelation 4…emphasis mine.

In Revelation 4:1 John writes…”After these things [the letters to the churches] I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, [the Lord God Revelation 1:8] like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, [into the open door in heaven – awesome!] and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

The ”the things which must soon take place” of Revelation 1 followed later by the “After these things” of Revelation 4 would seem to date the measured temple of Revelation 11 to a post 1^st century time frame as it appears.

[tatwo]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Is the temple and altar in Rev 11, the eternal temple in heaven or a material temple and people?

Great question…I’ll give you my best answer. The temple and alter from Revelation 11:1 are not a physical or material earthly temple like the one in Jerusalem…it is the “spiritual temple of God”…on the earth…in the form of the Body of Christ. It’s made up of those who are both “in Christ” and “on the earth” at the same time.

[tatwo]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

How is it that the gentiles tread the holy city underfoot, if it is the eternal city, in heaven?

Another great question that I don’t think I have ever had anyone ask of me. My answer may be more difficult to explain…it will take many words but I will not waste your time in my attempt to answer this. I may have to define some concepts a bit…here goes. I must say that in the process of interpreting scripture there are some “tools” that the Lord has revealed to His servants.

I am not aware of all of them…but there are a few that I have received that are essential in unpacking prophetic revelation from the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit. Here the understanding of “type and shadow” as it has been used over the ages to reveal steadfastness of Gods plans and interactions with humanity is a huge help. There are more…this will suffice because it works with our subject matter or context and it is a relatively simple example to use.

We need to understand that on earth you often have a copy of the thing which is in heaven…for example…”and there is so much more to this than we can cover here”…on earth you once had the “ark of the covenant”…which was carried by “four Levitical Priests” who were surrounded by a number of other “Levitical Priests” who were set aside by God through Moses to attend to what symbolically represented the “presence of God” or the “throne of God” in Israel.

In heaven as seen in Revelation chapter 4 that same reality or picture looks very different…and yet very similar…you have the throne of God as the epicenter of heaven…and in the midst and around the throne are the “four living creatures”…around them are the “24 elders”…I am suggesting that the ark of the covenant and what attends it…is an earthly “type and shadow” of the throne of God and what attends it…when seen in heaven.

There is much to be said about the “throne of God, the four living creatures and the 24 elders” which are in heaven and what they represent on the earth today…they were in heaven before the ark of the covenant was on the earth. This is all out of the scope of my answer here…so we will move on.

Some understanding of the temple layout as seen in Jerusalem helps in this. The focus of my response here is the different areas of location “within the temple grounds” and it is largely symbolic.

“Gentiles”…they are in direct proximity to the most holy place in the temple of God…which is the “naos.” This is the representation of those who are deceived by the “false messiah and the harlot”…who have long since produced a false antichrist religion that totally mocks God. One has to think “wheat and tares” and how they are allowed to grow together unto the harvest.

In the temple setting…those who comprise the “naos” of God in the most holy place are the wheat…the gentiles in the outer court are the tares…both in the temple just in very different places and very different species. The separation of these takes place in Revelation 12.

This symbolizes the integration or connection of the true followers of Christ and those only “posing as followers” in the temple setting. The posers “have a form of godliness but deny its power.” Like the tare…among the wheat…or the sheep and the goats.

Additionally…what is also in view here is the decree of God from Genesis 3:15 which states “I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed” this seed of the serpent in Cain…murdered his brother Abel who represents the seed of the woman…it’s the righteous that is murdered by the unrighteous and it started with the first set of brothers ever.

Stretching this out a bit…in type…Abel is the “holy city” and in type…Cain is the “gentiles”…in type Abel is the “wheat” and in type Cain is the “tares.” May I suggest that in type the “Lord Yahshua Christ” is the holy city and in type Israel is the gentiles? That is exactly what happened…right?

The “holy city” is the righteous people of God…the sons of God…the seed of the woman and the gentiles are the unrighteous people of Satan…the sons of Satan…the seed of the serpent. How did the Lord of glory put it when speaking to scribes and Pharisees? “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44 NASB)

Again in Luke 13…”O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! "Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!” (Luke 13:34-35 NASB)

So “my attempt” at answering your question…”How is it that the gentiles tread the holy city underfoot, if it is the eternal city, in heaven?” The same way they always have…it’s an ancient ploy that has been used in every epoch since Cain and Able.

When the righteous standard of God…Christ…the Rod of measurement…the instrument of correction and judgment is brought forth…those who do not wish to submit…will then move to kill the standard. Isn’t that what happened to our Lord Yahshua Christ? You know it is…

The measured temple of Revelation 11…will suffer the same thing here on earth just as the Lord did…for what looks to be the same time period as well…interesting huh? There is one exception however…this will be the last iteration of the unrighteous killing the righteous in this age. All other examples of the unrighteous killing the righteous will be rolled up into this one final event. But you know abcdef…you cannot kill the Son of the living God.

Tatwo...:)

[Stewardofthemystery]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

I agree completely.

I hope this post will clarify your understanding of the timelines. You are on the right track. Sadly, I must tell you that the conclusion is bitter, as the scroll is sweet and then bitter.

 

 

The Revelation symbols represent literal entities and events. 

 

The 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 are sometimes mixed up with other similar numbers that are about different subjects. This distorts the timelines by trying to fit them in where they do not belong.

The 3 1/2 times, 42 months, and 1260 days are seen in Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 11:2&3, Rev 12:6&14, Rev 13:5. 

Dan 7:25, The angel says that it will be 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people is scattered. This would be the first 3 1/2 times, from Babylon to 70 AD.

 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored, 1967.

Are you saying here that you think the fullness of the Gentiles is 1967?

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

So 7 times would be from Babylon until Jerusalem is restored.

*It extremely important to note, that this is the complete times of the gentiles as seen in the Dan 2 statue, and the time of the 4 beast nations in Dan 7.

So these numbers are showing the time from the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon until Jerusalem is restored.

--

What is the greatest question that the children of Israel wanted to know from Babylon to 1967?

When will Jerusalem be restored to Israel?

The Dan 2 statue, the 4 beasts of Dan 7, Jesus Lk 21:24, and the Revelation, all center around the answer to this question.

The answer is 7 times, or 2 time periods of 3 1/2 each. 

---

The reason for the use of months and days is to show which 3 1/2 times that is being referred to in the passages.

The two 3 1/2 times are not equal times in the years of men.

Babylon- 70 AD, 600 yrs ish.

70 AD- 1967, 1900 yrs ish.

The months and days are meant to show that it is the second 3 1/2 times that is being referred to. 

 

0 AD-33 AD ish, The birth of Jesus and His ascension fix the dates. The faithful woman Israel, Rev 12.

 

The second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD-1967. The faithful woman is attacked by Rome.

She is the kingdom/church made up of the children of Israel. The faithful kingdom/church gentiles are seen as her children in Rev 12:17, who did not flee because they were not genetic children of Israel.

 

There are 2 branches of the kingdom/church, natural and grafted.

The Dan 2 and 7 passages are focused of the children of Israel and not the gentiles, who are seen as enemies who dominate them.

It is the same in the Revelation. It is focused on the flesh children of Israel, both believing (Rev 12) and unbelieving (Rev 17). The Rev 12 woman is believing Israel in the flesh who flee from Rome. The children who do not flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations are her adopted gentile flesh souls Rev 12:17.

 

Your observation should be obvious to everybody, 33 AD, anchors the timeline.

 

70 AD-1967.

 What happens when the 3 1/2 times and her time in the wilderness of the gentile nations is ended?

She returns to restore Jerusalem.

 

Lk 21:20-24, Jesus said the Jerusalem would be trampled until the times of the gentiles was over. He is talking about the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD-1967.

( The restoration of Jerusalem IS the sign of His coming)

 

yes

The 1335 days is already completed by the scattering of 70 AD.

The 1335 days is not part of the 3 1/2 times calculation and is about a different subject, Antiochus.

 

Dan 12:1-3, Jesus is the deliverer. The first resurrection was not Jesus alone. When He resurrected He brought with Him all the souls in paradise from the OT times, Eph 4:7-10. They are the ones seen in heaven with Jesus and John at the writing of the Revelation.

 

 

Dan 12:7, All the things in the last vision will be completed by 70 AD, including the 1335 days.

 

Yes

The "times of the gentiles" is different from the "fullness of the gentiles".

The times of the gentiles is about Jerusalem and it's restoration to Israel.

The fullness of the gentiles is about the conversion of gentiles into the kingdom/church.

 

 

Will every single person, all over the planet, who is a child of Israel, suddenly accept Jesus? No.

According to what the Revelation says, in my opinion, there will still be a great many children of Israel who will not accept Jesus.

 

I think that when the fullness of the gentiles is come in, that it is about the time that Jerusalem is restored. Many children of Israel have accepted Jesus since 1967

 

Yes, 70 AD, AoD by Titus in the temple.

Son of Perdition, son of Caesar, and becomes Caesar.

 

Soon, very soon, it could be years, but it could only be months.

According to the 2 witnesses prophecy, when Jerusalem falls, when the 2 witnesses are killed, it will be 3 1/2 days until Jesus comes for the kingdom at the resur/rapt, and then this planet is fire. Bitter.

 

Yes, when the ungodliness is removed, will Jerusalem be restored?

 

Please understand this, that the beast of the Revelation is the 4th beast of Dan 7, Rome.

-----

I'm sorry that this post is so extensive, but you have observed the most important factors in the timelines that almost all people cannot reason out.

--

 

I’m not going to comment on everything you posted, but I’m glad to see you believe the 70 ad destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem is the start point.  This is also when Gods people “flee into the wilderness,” per the instruction of Jesus.  When they saw Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army.

But I have to disagree with your idea of 1967 being “the fullness of the Gentile sign.” The signs that will mark the fullness of the Gentiles is the “6th seal signs,”in the sun, moon and stars.  All the scriptures agree with this time marker.

There are actually 2 tribulations mentioned in scripture, here is a post I made about when this “time of Gentiles is fulfilled” and the signs that will mark this event.

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of “the Jew first,” and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the first one which pertained to “the Jews,”and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world. 

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events. 

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as “the world”has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.

Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation, that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to “the Jews”was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” 

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
 

This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.

Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with the judgment announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for “the Jews”is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days."

If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, “after that tribulation,”the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm the end point of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”

In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of those days would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin. 

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is symbolic of time when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.

This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather spiritually discerned.

To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then a time, times and half a time would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.


I believe the “6th seal signs”confirms the fullness of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.
 

Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

This removal of blindness and ungodliness from Jacob "after the tribulation of those days" is confirmed here in Jeremiah 31:33“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; “After those days,” saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

This is the point in time of deliverance for God’s saints from the time of trouble that comes after ‘those days” is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and “at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Notice, the first “days of vengeance” Jesus proclaimed upon the Jews, starting with the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad; is not the same time as is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 because the Jews were not delivered from that period of persecution, which scripture and history confirms lasted “many days” as is written.

But this time of persecution is symbolically shown as, time, times and a half, or symbolically 42 
months, or 1260 days.

But the “time of trouble” shown in Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking of a time of deliverance for God’s people and also shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

So this we know by scripture, and also by history, that these 2 separate tribulation events cannot be the same.

Peace and God bless

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

 

Are you saying here that you think the fullness of the Gentiles is 1967?

I’m not going to comment on everything you posted, but I’m glad to see you believe the 70 ad destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem is the start point.  This is also when Gods people “flee into the wilderness,” per the instruction of Jesus.  When they saw Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army.

But I have to disagree with your idea of 1967 being “the fullness of the Gentile sign.” The signs that will mark the fullness of the Gentiles is the “6th seal signs,”in the sun, moon and stars.  All the scriptures agree with this time marker.

There are actually 2 tribulations mentioned in scripture, here is a post I made about when this “time of Gentiles is fulfilled” and the signs that will mark this event.

 

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of “the Jew first,” and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the first one which pertained to “the Jews,”and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world. 

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events. 

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as “the world”has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.

Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation, that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to “the Jews”was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” 

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
 

This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.

Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with the judgment announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for “the Jews”is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days."

If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, “after that tribulation,”the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm the end point of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”

In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of those days would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin. 

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is symbolic of time when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.

This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather spiritually discerned.

To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then a time, times and half a time would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.


I believe the “6th seal signs”confirms the fullness of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.
 

Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

This removal of blindness and ungodliness from Jacob "after the tribulation of those days" is confirmed here in Jeremiah 31:33“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; “After those days,” saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

This is the point in time of deliverance for God’s saints from the time of trouble that comes after ‘those days” is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and “at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Notice, the first “days of vengeance” Jesus proclaimed upon the Jews, starting with the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad; is not the same time as is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 because the Jews were not delivered from that period of persecution, which scripture and history confirms lasted “many days” as is written.

But this time of persecution is symbolically shown as, time, times and a half, or symbolically 42 
months, or 1260 days.

But the “time of trouble” shown in Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking of a time of deliverance for God’s people and also shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

So this we know by scripture, and also by history, that these 2 separate tribulation events cannot be the same.

Peace and God bless

There is just so for me to try and absorb here. There are verses from Paul, Isaiah, Matthew, Revelation and of course Daniel.

I don’t believe I can comment on those that speak to Revelation except for those that come out of Daniel. 
 
One of your important references speaks to the two verses in chapters 7 and 12. They both mention “time, times, and 1/2 time.” They have the same meaning.

This time element speaks to the length of time when he (little horn) will speak against the Most High, shall wear out the saints, think to change times and laws, and they shall be given into his hand until a “time, times, and 1/2 time. 
 

These verses are not speaking of “end time events” but events that will occur UNTIL THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS. So much of chapter 7 in Daniel is speaking about the coming little horn (papacy) who will do all these things and so much more. 
 

He is the one that will become “exceedingly great.” He will claim infallibility, to be god on earth, attack the 10 commandments, attack His church, bring in pagan practices and on and on. 
 

He represents the pagans after the Cross who would accept Jesus and become part of the growing Jewish/Christian church. By the time of Constantine, this church had changed to a Gentile/Christian church. The number of Gentiles dominated the church and essentially, removed the Jewish presence from it. The powerful bishops fought for supremacy with the bishop of Rome becoming the victor. They would take over this church and after the demise of pagan Rome, they would come to full power over state and church. 

This little horn would command/ control/ authority for God’s church including His laws and commandments. This is where the time element comes in: God will allow His 10 commandments to be given into his (little horn) until the end of time or His second coming— His Holy Words or His 10 commandments will be in his possession for a time (1000 years), times (2000 years), and a 1/2 time (500 years), or a total of 3,500 years…. THEN, THE MESSIAH WILL COME. Moses was given His 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai 3,500 years ago - meaning, time is quite short!

There are 5 very important time elements in Daniel (this one is recorded twice, though). 
 

1) chapter 4 - 7 times,

2) chapter 7 - time, times and 1/2 times,

3) chapter 8 - 2300 days,

4) chapter 12 - 1290 days,

5) chapter 12 - 1335 days. 
 

This time element is the only one that is not interrupted in “days.” 

 

[tatwo]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:16 PM, abcdef said:

See that there are 2 Israels that are shown as women in the Revelation.

The faithful woman of Rev 12, and the unfaithful harlot woman of Rev 17.

It's the same woman abcdef...she starts out clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars...she ends up sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 

She was into her perversion early on and she had infiltrated the "church" which is why the Lord busted Thyatira for permitting her to teach and lead His bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

In Ancient Israel she certainly modeled this form leading people astray acts of immorality and eating things sacrificed to idols...where do you think the "church" learned it?

Likely from "Jezebel" this spirit  first pervades the nation of Israel and now that she see that the Lord has changed His operations in the earth...once again...she inserts her dark spirit in the church and continues leading people astray...even unto today.

The harlot Jezebel as referenced in Revelation 2:20 was forced to extend her harlotries once she saw the Body of Christ...and why not...Lord Yahshua sent Israel back into the wilderness where they die...and this woman of revelation 12...she will be sent to the wilderness just the same...exactly John wrote. 

In fact that is exactly where John finds her in Revelation 17...And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 

Same woman...same tactics...same harlotries...same perversions...same wilderness...it's her.

 

[tatwo]

16 hours ago, abcdef said:

The second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD-1967. The faithful woman is attacked by Rome.

She is the kingdom/church made up of the children of Israel. The faithful kingdom/church gentiles are seen as her children in Rev 12:17, who did not flee because they were not genetic children of Israel.

Interesting perspective…”faithful woman (Israel) is attacked by Rome”…I have heard “ancient Israel” described by many attributes…but “faithful” is not one of them…”she” murdered her own “promised Son”…if “faithful” is an attribute for ancient Israel…her “faithfulness” was not to the God and Father of our Lord Yahshua Christ…you all know the story.

Ancient Israel is not in the prophetic picture of Revelation chapter 12…unless you are referring to the harlot spirit of Babylon that most of ancient Israel worshipped as god.