Charlie744 Posted March 14 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 860 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, abcdef said: Even though the death of Jesus was tragic, because of it souls where forgiven and saved. The details were something that was kept hidden from men until after it happened, 1 Cor 2:7-8. Agree. Even though they rejected and crucified their Messiah, they would not be destroyed. Those that would come to accept Him would be saved and would not be “made desolate.” But those that rejected Him would be separated or “made desolate” until the end times. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: Souls could be forgiven for killing Jesus, but not for rejecting the new covenant Pentecost kingdom of Israel. This is the reason that Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. Because they crucified Jesus? Yes. But the greater sin was to reject forgiveness and salvation. If Israel had accepted the new covenant, it may have been that it would have not fallen. Agree. The cross was in His plan of salvation since the foundation of the world. There was not ONE Jew (even His Apostles) who believed He was God before the cross. Only after His resurrection would they understand and receive the Holy Spirit, therefore, ALL, including those who Him had the same opportunity to accept Him. I believe they were given the next 40 years (30 AD to 70 AD) as a “testing period” to come and accept Jesus before He would destroy the Temple, the city, etc. But of course, that didn’t happen and they would be made desolate for some 2000 years. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: ---- Understand that there are 2 Israels. One group accepts Jesus and the new covenant and has a living relationship with Jesus by the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. Agree totally. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: The other group has rejected Jesus and suffers the withdrawing of the blessings associated with a new covenant loving and protection over the souls relationship with Jesus. They have no living relationship with the God who loves them, by their own choice. Agree totally, and this is the reason or basis for “the abomination that causes desolation” from their God. 1) the term “abomination” can not refer to an act such as the destruction of a physical property- the Temple, the Sanctuary, even the entire city itself. They have already been destroyed before by the Babylonians. Also, as a result of the cross, those “physical structures” were no longer important. Their value to God was now done away with - their”mission” within His plan of salvation was fulfilled. This “abomination” would refer to something so much greater than the destruction of a Temple or some physical object. It was the crucified Messiah that would CAUSE such a complete “desolation” from their God. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: These 2 groups are here today just as they have been in 70 AD and for centuries before that. Tracing the history of these 2 groups after 70 AD shows that one group (1/3) fled into the gentile nations and the other group was killed (1/3) or taken as slaves by Rome (1/3). I agree there are / were two groups- these are revealed in verses 2:41-43. That is, when the Stone symbolically struck the feet of the image, it would break apart the two elements mentioned in the feet (2:34 says it broke apart the iron and the clay, although EVERYONE contends it broke apart the entire image). But the statue / image was NOT destroyed and only the iron and clay were separated. In those verses, He reveals there would be either “pottery clay” (those that would accept He was the Messiah after the Cross), and those “ceramic clay” (those whose hearts were hardened and would continue to reject He was their Messiah). 1 hour ago, abcdef said: The Rev timelines parallel this pattern. The entity that imposes his will on Israel who did not flee is the Roman 4th beast of Dan 7. I am sorry, I do not understand what you are referring to here. There are two entities (outside the Jews) who play a role in the 4th kingdom: there is pagan Rome who succeeded the 3rd kingdom of Greece and would be identified as the 4th kingdom beast who would play a major role at the time of Jesus. The most important prophecies would take place within the early part of this 4th kingdom (pagan Rome period). This is when the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (9:24-27) would end (3.5 years after the Cross). But this also confirms the 4th beast kingdom (nor any of the kingdoms) were destroyed by the “Stone” of 2:34. Pagan Rome would continue, not be destroyed, at the time of the cross. It would continue for another 440 years when pagan Rome would come to an end (chapter 7- it would be slain and its body destroyed). This is also what is meant in those verses (2:41-43) as the “divided kingdom.” Pagan Rome would cease to be and be replaced by papal Rome - the “divided kingdom.” It is this “divided kingdom” who would be revealed in chapter 7 as having the 10 or more characteristics- goes against His people, His church, His saints, speaks pompous / blasphemous things against God even to declare he is equal to God. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: Look at the gathering in Matt 24:30-31. The gathering is the promised restoration of Jerusalem when the times of the gentiles is beginning to end. The trumpet that is blown is the 5th trumpet and not the resurrection 7th trumpet. 5 is the number for division. In this example the 5th calls Israel to come out of the gentile nations and restore Jerusalem. In Lk 21:20-24, 24, Jesus shows a limited time to the gentile control of Jerusalem. When the time is ended Jerusalem is restored. --- At the end of time, God will remove the blindness from the eyes of the Jews just as He did to Paul (Damascus experience). This will only take place when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Then, the Jews will preach God’s Word AND the Testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. At the end of the 3.5 years, the Messiah will return on earth. 1 hour ago, abcdef said: The statue of Dan 2 begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. The statue ends when Jerusalem is restored. 1967 The statue has ended because Jerusalem is restored and Rome has no more power over the children of Israel in Jerusalem. I understand your comment but disagree because in Daniel, he (little horn) will continue until He returns. Israel has indeed been restored but the issue is not whether Rome had power over Israel, it is that Rome (papal Rome) continues to preach a different gospel. The Jews don’t care what the papacy believes- they will continue to reject Jesus is their Messiah on their own. The statue or image (2:35) will be destroyed when the Messiah returns and not a second earlier. He will destroy all of the 5 elements mentioned in Daniel. Again, all of the “physical” things have been fully restored in Israel beginning in 1948, but they have / had no bearing on whether the Jews believed in Jesus. It will be exactly like it took place at His first coming. Physically, Israel was fully restored BY THE LAST DAY OF THE 69th WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. The last 7 years were “set aside” for the Messiah to fulfill His God given mission (9:24). No Jew truly believed He was God until after the resurrection. Paul would have to experience his Damascus experience BEFORE he would accept Him. The Jews of today have also been fully restored once again, but they will also not accept Jesus UNTIL they receive their “Damascus experience” (when He removes the blindness from their eyes). 1 hour ago, abcdef said: Please consider these comments and I look for to your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 15 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 15 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Agree. Even though they rejected and crucified their Messiah, they would not be destroyed. Those that would come to accept Him would be saved and would not be “made desolate.” But those that rejected Him would be separated or “made desolate” until the end times. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Agree. The cross was in His plan of salvation since the foundation of the world. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: There was not ONE Jew (even His Apostles) who believed He was God before the cross. Matt 16:16, Peter certainly believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Did that statement mean that Peter understood that Jesus was God? Jesus said that if you saw Him then you have seen the Father, Jn 14:9. If Peter understood Jesus' teachings about the relationship between Jesus and the Father, then calling Jesus the Son of God would seem to be a confession to the realization that Jesus was God the Father. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Only after His resurrection would they understand and receive the Holy Spirit, therefore, ALL, including those who Him had the same opportunity to accept Him. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: I believe they were given the next 40 years (30 AD to 70 AD) as a “testing period” to come and accept Jesus before He would destroy the Temple, the city, etc. But of course, that didn’t happen and they would be made desolate for some 2000 years. Agree totally. Agree totally, and this is the reason or basis for “the abomination that causes desolation” from their God. 1) the term “abomination” can not refer to an act such as the destruction of a physical property- the Temple, the Sanctuary, even the entire city itself. They have already been destroyed before by the Babylonians. Also, as a result of the cross, those “physical structures” were no longer important. Their value to God was now done away with - their”mission” within His plan of salvation was fulfilled. This “abomination” would refer to something so much greater than the destruction of a Temple or some physical object. It was the crucified Messiah that would CAUSE such a complete “desolation” from their God. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: I agree there are / were two groups- these are revealed in verses 2:41-43. That is, when the Stone symbolically struck the feet of the image, it would break apart the two elements mentioned in the feet (2:34 says it broke apart the iron and the clay, although EVERYONE contends it broke apart the entire image). But the statue / image was NOT destroyed and only the iron and clay were separated. In those verses, He reveals there would be either “pottery clay” (those that would accept He was the Messiah after the Cross), and those “ceramic clay” (those whose hearts were hardened and would continue to reject He was their Messiah). The Dan 2 statue shows that the first break or division happens when Rome divides east and west in the 3rd century. Since the gospel kingdom is to cause the division, the kingdom must be established before that time, in order to cause the division. The kingdom of Israel was established on earth on the Day of Pentecost, about 1 inch ish from when the iron begins. The stone striking is Jesus coming for the finished kingdom at the resur/rapt. The stone striking is shown in Rev 20 as the fire from heaven. The judgment that takes place after the fire from heaven is the same judgment as the wheat/chaff judgment of Dan 2. Both are followed by the new earth. --- The king is looking at the statue in his dream. The statue is described. While he is looking at the statue, a stone strikes the feet. When the king is first looking at the statue, is the statue complete? Or are the toes not formed yet? The statue could not stand without the feet, it would fall over on it's own. Did it have toes on the feet of iron and clay? It seems to me that the statue had the toes while the king was first looking at it in the beginning of the dream. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: I am sorry, I do not understand what you are referring to here. There are two entities (outside the Jews) who play a role in the 4th kingdom: there is pagan Rome who succeeded the 3rd kingdom of Greece and would be identified as the 4th kingdom beast who would play a major role at the time of Jesus. The most important prophecies would take place within the early part of this 4th kingdom (pagan Rome period). This is when the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (9:24-27) would end (3.5 years after the Cross). But this also confirms the 4th beast kingdom (nor any of the kingdoms) were destroyed by the “Stone” of 2:34. Pagan Rome would continue, not be destroyed, at the time of the cross. It would continue for another 440 years when pagan Rome would come to an end (chapter 7- it would be slain and its body destroyed). This is also what is meant in those verses (2:41-43) as the “divided kingdom.” Pagan Rome would cease to be and be replaced by papal Rome - the “divided kingdom.” It is this “divided kingdom” who would be revealed in chapter 7 as having the 10 or more characteristics- goes against His people, His church, His saints, speaks pompous / blasphemous things against God even to declare he is equal to God. There is a view point that the stone striking the statue is 33 AD Pentecost. This is a preterist view. They contend that the stone striking is the beginning of the new covenant on Pentecost and that the gospel kingdom religion fills or takes over the planet earth. The new earth is nothing more than living under the new covenant with God and that all this was fulfilled by 70 AD., they say. ---- The Roman Empire is ended when the toes divide into ten from the feet, Dan 2. In Dan 7 the Roman Empire falls when the head of the 4th beast dies and becomes divided. The Vatican is seen as the little horn with the big mouth that comes after the end of the Empire, the image Empire. If the stone strikes the feet and the statue continues, what happens after the toes end? Why does the statue fall, after the toes end, if it did not fall when the stone struck the feet? What event causes the statue to fall, when it does fall and turn to chaff? 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: At the end of time, God will remove the blindness from the eyes of the Jews just as He did to Paul (Damascus experience). This will only take place when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Then, the Jews will preach God’s Word AND the Testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. At the end of the 3.5 years, the Messiah will return on earth. The times of the gentiles ended in 1967. Jesus has been preached in prophecy since the days of Adam. The scriptures bear witness to Jesus. Since Israel has carried the scriptures, preached the scriptures for 1000's of years, they are witnesses also. Since 1967 Israel has had the opportunity to hear and obey the gospel new covenant message. My opinion is that everybody in Israel has heard the message and accepted it or rejected it. The thought that every single person of Israel's blood will accept the gospel is not shown in the NT letters. I think that there will be 2 groups of the children of Israel at the very end, believing and unbelieving, so there won't be any great sign where everybody of Israel accepts the gospel. -- The 3 1/2 times are not years. They are symbolic of the times of the gentiles from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored in 1967. This is proven by the Rev 12 faithful woman who flees from Rome after 70 AD and returns to Jerusalem after the 3 1/2 times is fulfilled, 1900 years, not 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 times not years, symbolic. (The 7 times are equal to the time of the statue in Dan 2. The first 3 1/2 is Babylon until the scattering in 70 AD, Dan 12:7. The second 3 1/2 times is 70 AD until 1967 when Jerusalem is restored and the toes end. Rev is about the second 3 1/2 times during the reign of the Roman 4th beast.) 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: I understand your comment but disagree because in Daniel, he (little horn) will continue until He returns. Israel has indeed been restored but the issue is not whether Rome had power over Israel, it is that Rome (papal Rome) continues to preach a different gospel. The Jews don’t care what the papacy believes- they will continue to reject Jesus is their Messiah on their own. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: The statue or image (2:35) will be destroyed when the Messiah returns and not a second earlier. He will destroy all of the 5 elements mentioned in Daniel. If the stone striking the statue is 33 AD, the where does the statue show Jesus coming a second time for salvation at the resur/rapt? 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Again, all of the “physical” things have been fully restored in Israel beginning in 1948, but they have / had no bearing on whether the Jews believed in Jesus. It will be exactly like it took place at His first coming. Physically, Israel was fully restored BY THE LAST DAY OF THE 69th WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. The last 7 years were “set aside” for the Messiah to fulfill His God given mission (9:24). No Jew truly believed He was God until after the resurrection. Paul would have to experience his Damascus experience BEFORE he would accept Him. The Jews of today have also been fully restored once again, but they will also not accept Jesus UNTIL they receive their “Damascus experience” (when He removes the blindness from their eyes). There are thousands and thousands of souls in Israel who have accepted the new covenant.Their eyes have been opened. If we think that there will be a sudden mass change in the belief of Israel to Jesus and the new covenant, I really don't see that happening in scripture. It seems that the unbelief of Israel causes this current Jerusalem to fall, just as it has always been in the past. 8 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Please consider these comments and I look for to your thoughts. May God be with you my brother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 15 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 15 11 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said: Herod didn't try to kill Jesus for Rome He tried to kill Jesus for himself. He acted in his osn self interest as king of judea and king of the Jews. According to Rev 12, the dragon tries to kill Jesus when He is born. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? Herod. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? The dragon Rev 12. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? The dragon and Herod. The Satanic dragon Roman Nation tried to kill Jesus using Herod, he was part of the Roman dragon. You could see it as Herod being the hand with the sword of the Roman beast nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 15 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 15 11 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said: No the leaders of Israel did not pledge their loyalty to a 4th beast.They pledged their loyalty to Caesar. Rome is the 4th beast of Dan 7 and Caesar is the king of that 4th beast nation. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar, you could say. So they did pledge loyalty to the 4th beast of Dan 7 by giving their oath to the king of that 4th beast nation who is Caesar. 11 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said: John 19:15, "We have no king but Caesar." The word of God is not saying anything bad about Rome in this verse.These are the words of the Jews who reject Jesus as the Christ. Antichrist. How about when the Romans killed Jesus? Were they bad then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted March 15 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 860 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: Matt 16:16, Peter certainly believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Did that statement mean that Peter understood that Jesus was God? Jesus said that if you saw Him then you have seen the Father, Jn 14:9. If Peter understood Jesus' teachings about the relationship between Jesus and the Father, then calling Jesus the Son of God would seem to be a confession to the realization that Jesus was God the Father. I don't believe Peter understood who Jesus really was. He told Jesus he would try and prevent Him from the cross, he also denied knowing Him 3 times, and after the cross, he went right back to his day job of being a fisherman. Despite the miracles, the amazing wisdom He preached - all during a 3.5 year period, no one really understood who Jesus was... Jesus, even being presented in a very humble manner, even after all the miracles, is simply too big for us to take in. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: The Dan 2 statue shows that the first break or division happens when Rome divides east and west in the 3rd century. Since the gospel kingdom is to cause the division, the kingdom must be established before that time, in order to cause the division. The kingdom of Israel was established on earth on the Day of Pentecost, about 1 inch ish from when the iron begins. The stone striking is Jesus coming for the finished kingdom at the resur/rapt. The stone striking is shown in Rev 20 as the fire from heaven. The judgment that takes place after the fire from heaven is the same judgment as the wheat/chaff judgment of Dan 2. Both are followed by the new earth. I disagree - sorry. In God's image of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms, He established the 4th kingdom as pagan Rome. They would come into existence around 63BC. This was well after the beginning of Israel. But due to the tremendous power that would become Impreial Rome, the Jews would find themselves to be "sitting at the feet of this powerful kingdom" at the time of the coming Messiah. This is also important to note that this is the timing of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - all things HAD to be fully restored after the Babylonian destruction BEFORE THE MESSIAH COULD ARRIVE - HE WAS SYMBOLICALLY THE LAST PIECE OF FURNITURE TO BE RESTORED IN THE SANCTUARY - THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS THE FIRST PIECE TO BE REMOVED FROM THE CLUTCHES OF THE BABYLONIANS AND THIS WOULD / COULD ONLY BE RESTORED BY JESUS - HE WOULD BE THE FINAL PIECE RESTORED. And this is also important because in order for their to be a "divisi0n" there must be a complete "something" to divide. At the time of the cross, there is the relatively beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, the completion of ALL THINGS ISRAEL -PHYSICAL ELEMENTS, LEVITICAL CYCLES, ETC., BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE JEWISH NATION WOULD BE SITTING OR BEING OPPRESSED BY THE ROMANS. There was no nation, no peoples on the earth at that time that could compete, overcome or contest the Roman Empire - everyone was "under their feet." Israel was back at home and complete but it was symbolically contained within the Roman kingdom. They could not fight their way out or even peacefully get out from under Rome. And most important, is that they were very comfortable continuing in the Jewish faith - yes, they were expecting their Messiah to come, but not the One that did come. Meaning, it was the Stone that would be the only force (not military as expected by the Jews) that would break apart those of His people that would start His church. Nothing would have changed within Israel had Jesus not come to "divide" those who would go forth throughout the world preaching the One and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Jews kept Him to themselves even though that was their mission given to them by God at Mt. Sinai. Now, the "Potter" (Jeremiah) would break apart those of His people that would come to accept Him (pottery clay) vs. those that would continue their pre-cross Jewish ways (ceramic clay). They would not be broken apart from the holdings of pagan Rome in a military manner but in a spiritual manner. Verse 2:34 must be Jesus coming out of the mountain, carved without human hands to "break apart" the iron and the clay" and choose those of His people that He could use to preach His Word and His Testimony. Clearly, no kingdom was destroyed at His first coming -the remainder of the chapters in Daniel surely prove that and expand on the actors and events that would occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy (certainly chapter 9), and to the coming little horn. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: --- The king is looking at the statue in his dream. The statue is described. While he is looking at the statue, a stone strikes the feet. When the king is first looking at the statue, is the statue complete? Or are the toes not formed yet? The statue could not stand without the feet, it would fall over on it's own. Did it have toes on the feet of iron and clay? It seems to me that the statue had the toes while the king was first looking at it in the beginning of the dream. In the beginning of chapter 2, God gives Nebuchadnezzar a complete (big picture) of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that He wants us to see and consider on the earth. Their is no need to consider extra-biblical records (our history books) because this is not a history lesson from God. God is giving us 12 chapters of unbelievable prophecies using certainl actors and certain identified kingdoms - and all of these verses MUST paint the same picture - the coming of the Messiah and His plan of restoration for the Jews and mankind. So yes, the feet and the toes are complete in this "blueprint" of the metal man image. The clay is the only non-metallica element in the image for it is to reflect His people that will be sitting at the bottom of the feet of pagan R0me at the time of His coming. If you quickly look at any of the chapters that describe the first 3 kingdoms, there is not one that goes into such details and discussions as the 4th kingdom - because this is where all the important prophecies will occurr - His first coming tied nicely in with the 70 weeks of years prophecy, His 3.5 year ministry, His rejection and the cross, the beginning of His church after the cross and certainly the beginning of the little horn who would not come out of the 4th kingdom UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS - why, because the early church leaders (all Jews) would begin the church, they would preach to the Gentile world as commissioned by Jesus. They (Gentiles) would be seen in chapter 7 as "coming out of and behind the 10 kings" AFTER THE STONE IN CHAPTER 2 HAD BROKEN APART THE IRION AND THE CLAY. By the time of Constantine, the Gentiles had effectively taken over His church and removed the presences of the Jews (verses 2:41-43) and we will then find that after pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed (chapter 7) they would continue to climb in power and be found to "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. In the "dream sequence" (where God reveals the big picture to Nebuchadnezzar), he sees the 4 different types of metals (kingdoms) down to the FEET. Nebuchadnezzar does not see the 10 individual toes but the feet made of iron and clay only. This is also very symbolic since he does and could not understand nor recognize the toes or the clay. It is only when Daniel is given the "interpretation sequence" of verses (details - 2:41-43)) is the type of clay described and the 10 toes mentioned. Then he is given a series of comparisons to consider that reveal the different make up of what was within the feet - not only the types of clay but the continuation of iron (pagan Rome) that would continue AFTER THE CROSS. Just as God would break apart those of His people who would come to accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) AFTER THE CROSS from both the iron kingdom of pagan Rome AND those that would reject Him (ceramic clay), you will notice that the 10 toes (AFTER THE STONE STRIKES THE FEET) WERE ALSO BROKEN AWAY OR OUT FROM UNDER THE IRON KINGDOM OF PAGAN ROME. When we get to chapter 7, we find that the 4 specific parts are all now shown and discussed separately: 1) the iron element will stil continue for another 400 years as pagan Rome until it is slain / destroyed, 2) the ceramic clay (Jews who still rejected Jesus) would continue until this day but would be made "desolate" to their God, 3) the pottery clay (Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah) would begin His church and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world as commanded by Jesus (His earthly / early church), 4) the ten toes which were also oppressed and kept within the feet of pagan Rome would now be outside the feet (no longer mentioned with the "indescribable 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome in chapter 7). They would now be referred to separately as 10 horns or powers that CAME OUT OF THE 4TH KINGDOM BEAST (BEFORE THE CROSS). 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: There is a view point that the stone striking the statue is 33 AD Pentecost. This is a preterist view. They contend that the stone striking is the beginning of the new covenant on Pentecost and that the gospel kingdom religion fills or takes over the planet earth. The new earth is nothing more than living under the new covenant with God and that all this was fulfilled by 70 AD., they say. ---- Well, I have not read that but we might be getting the same result as this.. however, when you identify that Jesus is the Stone that strikes the feet at His first coming, one can see the outcome - we have Daniel providing the consequences of His separating the iron and the clay as well as the 10 toes - they are not only reflected in verses 2:41-43, but they are discussed in greater details in chapters 7,8 9 and 11. All of these verses in all of these chapters only come about IF 2:34 OR THE STONE / JESUS breaks apart the iron and the clay elements in the feet at His first coming. This was His mission given to Him by His Father. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: The Roman Empire is ended when the toes divide into ten from the feet, Dan 2. No, the Roman Empire was "slain and its body destroyed" (chapter 7) around 467 AD. If you look at the progression of the 10 toes, you will find the following: 1) in chapter 2 they are shown as 10 toes held captive within the feet of pagan Rome - they were not going anywhere, 2) then in chapter 2 the Stone breaks apart the iron and the clay in the feet, 3) then in chapter 7, Daniel reveals the different entities separately as a result of the Stone striking the feet (only) - clearly this took place at His first coming because all 4 kingdoms are still alive and doing well and are now discussed quite differently AS A RESULT OF THE STRIKING OF THE FEET AND SEPARATING THE ELEMENTS. Now, the 10 toes are revealed as 10 horns (ONCE THEY ARE OUTSIDE THE ENCLOSED FEET) and are shown as horns or powers. 4) then they are discussed by Daniel as 10 kings in chapter 7. This ONLY comes about AFTER the demise of pagan Rome. Why? The 10 horns or powers have now climbed to the top of the 4th kingdom beast (again, pagan Rome was destroyed when this would take place). Now. these 10 kings reflect not only the power that was symbolically found as 10 horns (before their ascension to the top of the beast), but because they were shown as "kings" they would demand obedience. So we see a clear progression of the toes to the kings between chapter 2 and 7 - before the cross to the time pagan Rome is destroyed and the little horn takes power (papal Rome). 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: In Dan 7 the Roman Empire falls when the head of the 4th beast dies and becomes divided. The Vatican is seen as the little horn with the big mouth that comes after the end of the Empire, the image Empire. Yes, as the church grew, the Gentiles would essentially take over the church. The Jews would be removed (they would mingle but would not adhere ...) meaning because the Gentiles would corrrupt the Word of God and bring in many forms of paganism, the Jews would not accept these practices - they would mingle or still be within the church until they were voluntarily removed or removed by the Gentile church leaders.By this time (from Constantine onward), the church would be run by the bishops - of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria - all fighting to head this tremenodus movement. But Rome would win out and the bishop of Rome would come to full power after pagan Rome was slain and he would become the pope or papacy of this church. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: If the stone strikes the feet and the statue continues, what happens after the toes end? The toes will NEVER end. but please note that the toes were in existence BEFORE THE CROSS (BEFORE THE STONE BROKE APART THE IRON AND THE CLAY), AND AFTER THE CROSS WHEN THEY WOULD BE REVEALED AS 10 HORNS AND 10 KINGS. I have not discussed the 4th and final progression of the 10 toes - also in chapter 7 but that would take up much more time to discuss .... But the bottom line, is the 10 toes / horns / kings will continue until the end of time. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: Why does the statue fall, after the toes end, if it did not fall when the stone struck the feet? The statue does not fall - it was not meant to fall but to "house" the many messianic prophecies that would come through the 4 kingdoms. The 4th kingdom in the form of papal Rome is said to have to continue until the time of the end - and they will - the papacy and the false teachings of the church will continue until the end of time right before the coming of the Messiah. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: What event causes the statue to fall, when it does fall and turn to chaff? At the end of time, Jesus will destroy all 5 elements found in the image (2:45). This is the crushing into powder all the elements and thrown into the wind. His second coming when He will consummate His church. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: The times of the gentiles ended in 1967. I don't know why you would say that... the Gentiles (you and me) are certainly here at this time.. 1967 has nothing to do with the Gentiles. It was an important date in secular Israel but they have not had the blindness removed from their eyes - because the time of the Gentiles has not come yet - but we are so close (imo). 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: Jesus has been preached in prophecy since the days of Adam. The scriptures bear witness to Jesus. Since Israel has carried the scriptures, preached the scriptures for 1000's of years, they are witnesses also. Since 1967 Israel has had the opportunity to hear and obey the gospel new covenant message. My opinion is that everybody in Israel has heard the message and accepted it or rejected it. I agree, but as I mentiond in my last post, they will NOT turn to Jesus (corporately - since there certainly are many that have come to accept Jesus especially in the last 50 years or so), because It WILL BE A DIVINE EXPERIENCE. God will cause a divine act to remove the blindness from their eyes as He did with Paul. - Full cirlce - man can not do this....this is God's decision in His plan of salvation. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: The thought that every single person of Israel's blood will accept the gospel is not shown in the NT letters. I think that there will be 2 groups of the children of Israel at the very end, believing and unbelieving, so there won't be any great sign where everybody of Israel accepts the gospel. Well, I agree with you... if you look at verse 2:45 when Jesus returns, there are now 5 separate elements listed - there is still the "clay." Meaning, whether Jew or Gentile at the end of time, there will be peoples (clay) of all nations that will still refust to accept Jesus (Jews and Gentiles - just as it was in the post cross period). -- The 3 1/2 times are not years. They are symbolic of the times of the gentiles from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored in 1967. This is proven by the Rev 12 faithful woman who flees from Rome after 70 AD and returns to Jerusalem after the 3 1/2 times is fulfilled, 1900 years, not 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 times not years, symbolic. I am sorry to disagree once again, but the time, times and 1/2 times ARE IN YEARS. But they are not referring to the "time of the Gentiles." The only way to answer this specifically is to bring back the discussion of the 10 toes. This time element speaks directly to the 10 toes / horns / kings and its fourth progression. So, it would be too confusing to bring in up at this time. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: (The 7 times are equal to the time of the statue in Dan 2. The first 3 1/2 is Babylon until the scattering in 70 AD, Dan 12:7. The second 3 1/2 times is 70 AD until 1967 when Jerusalem is restored and the toes end. Rev is about the second 3 1/2 times during the reign of the Roman 4th beast.) Sorry, I have no idea what 7 you are referring to here. I hope you are not referring to 9:27 (one week), since that represents or is speaking of the "last 7 years or the last week" of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It is meant to say that Jesus would confirm the New Covenant WITHIN OR DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. This last 7 years of the prophecy was specificially "set aside" by God for His Messiah to fufill His 6 requirements (9:24) DURING THE FINAL WEEK OR THE WEEK OF HIS MINISTRY. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: If the stone striking the statue is 33 AD, the where does the statue show Jesus coming a second time for salvation at the resur/rapt? The statue is found to be destroyed in verse 2:35 - the final threshing floor. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: There are thousands and thousands of souls in Israel who have accepted the new covenant.Their eyes have been opened. Agree... thank God. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: If we think that there will be a sudden mass change in the belief of Israel to Jesus and the new covenant, I really don't see that happening in scripture. It seems that the unbelief of Israel causes this current Jerusalem to fall, just as it has always been in the past. i can certainly understand what you are saying and it wasn't until I studied Daniel that I believe there will and must be a "Damascus" experience that God will have on His people. 1) the NT clearly speaks of a "time of the Gentiles" and that it will come to an end. Why? Because when He deems it to end, He will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people to go out and preach the Word and the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL DID. Since after the 1st century the Word of God and the Testimonly of Jesus has been severely corrupted by the church. Paganism, idolatry, worshipping a man as God, changing His laws and commands, changing the Sabbath, on and on. It looks nothing like His church in the 1st century. God will open their eyes to preach the Gospel as it was meant to be taught and preached - which is nothing like today's christian churches. 2) It dovetails perfectly with God's timing of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The 4th Great and final Jubilee was to come to and end at the exact time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - exactly 3.5 years after the cross (the end of the final week in the prophecy). But because the Jews rejected their Messiah and crucified Him the counting of the final 4th Great Jubilee stopped. They were no longer in good standing with their God. They would be made "desolate" from their God for another 2000 years (cross = Abomination that caused their desolation). Consequently, there are still 3.5 years remaining to fulfill or complete the 4th Great Jubilee. This is NOT a requirement of God to fulfill - it can only be fulfilled by His people. When they fulfill this final 3.5 years, it will bring in the Messiah. Therefore, after God declares the time of the Gentiles is over, this is when He will turn to His people and open their eyes to the One they have pierced. They will go out in sackcloth and ashes mourning the One they rejected and pierced and will preach the Good News to the world for the last 3.5 years. It will complete the final 4th Great Jubilee and usher in the Messiah. 49 minutes ago, abcdef said: May God be with you my brother. Thank you so much and God bless. If you would like me to have Amazon send my book on the NEW Interpreations of the book of Daniel directly to you so you will see the reasoning and details behind these interpretations (no less than 35 new critivcal interpretations), please send me your contact information in a PM. If you do not feel comfortable giving me your contact information, you might be able to give me a "safe" address to send it to you without revealing your home address. It will be no cost to you. God bless, and I look forward to hearing back from you... again, it is literally impossible to properly respond to all of your terrific questions in this manner. It took me 5 years to unpack Daniel - it is not a short commentary but it is broken down by chapter and is an easy read (not necessarily a well written work because I am NO WRITER. My career was with numbers / spreadsheets, analysis, etc. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted March 15 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15 6 hours ago, abcdef said: According to Rev 12, the dragon tries to kill Jesus when He is born. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? Herod. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? The dragon Rev 12. Who tried to kill Jesus when He was born? The dragon and Herod. The Satanic dragon Roman Nation tried to kill Jesus using Herod, he was part of the Roman dragon. You could see it as Herod being the hand with the sword of the Roman beast nation. Herod was the king of judea.Not Rome. Herod had no authority outside judea just as the dragon doesn't .Anyone who flees into the wilderness outside of Judea is beyond the reach of the dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted March 15 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15 (edited) 6 hours ago, abcdef said: Rome is the 4th beast of Dan 7 and Caesar is the king of that 4th beast nation. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar, you could say. So they did pledge loyalty to the 4th beast of Dan 7 by giving their oath to the king of that 4th beast nation who is Caesar. How about when the Romans killed Jesus? Were they bad then? Did Jesus say Rome was bad? Quote the verse. Quote something like this about Rome. John 8 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Edited March 15 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydub Posted March 17 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 184 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17 On 3/14/2024 at 10:06 AM, Charlie744 said: Agree totally, and this is the reason or basis for “the abomination that causes desolation” from their God. 1) the term “abomination” can not refer to an act such as the destruction of a physical property- the Temple, the Sanctuary, even the entire city itself. They have already been destroyed before by the Babylonians. Also, as a result of the cross, those “physical structures” were no longer important. Their value to God was now done away with - their”mission” within His plan of salvation was fulfilled. This “abomination” would refer to something so much greater than the destruction of a Temple or some physical object. It was the crucified Messiah that would CAUSE such a complete “desolation” from their God. I agree, the abomination that causes desolation is not an act done by gentiles. The abomination that causes desolations was done by the Jews because of their sins and worship of false gods The first abomination that caused desolation was not because of Antiochus Ezekiel tells us in chapter 8 that there was all kinds of Idols inside the temple and these Idols were being worshiped in temple. In chapter 10 we see the Glory of God leaving the temple, because of the sins of Israel, because of their abominations, their worship of Idols in the temple God allowed their destruction. The destruction is not the abdominal act, It is the sins of Israel that was the abomination, which cause their desolation Again at the cross at the crucifixion, the Jews kill their Lord, their messiah their creator. They totally reject Gods greatest gift and kill their King, this is the abomination that causes desolation. Again Gods spirit leaves the temple and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Again its not the Romans who commit the abominations but, it is the Jews. The crucifixion of their messiah was the abomination that caused their desolation If there is another abomination that causes desolation it will be because of the Jews, it is not an act done to them, but it is an act they do against their God, which causes their destruction, I would guess if they ever build a temple and start sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins, it will be the start of their destruction, which will bring in the second coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted March 18 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 860 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18 17 minutes ago, Jaydub said: I agree, the abomination that causes desolation is not an act done by gentiles. The abomination that causes desolations was done by the Jews because of their sins and worship of false gods The first abomination that caused desolation was not because of Antiochus Ezekiel tells us in chapter 8 that there was all kinds of Idols inside the temple and these Idols were being worshiped in temple. In chapter 10 we see the Glory of God leaving the temple, because of the sins of Israel, because of their abominations, their worship of Idols in the temple God allowed their destruction. The destruction is not the abdominal act, It is the sins of Israel that was the abomination, which cause their desolation Again at the cross at the crucifixion, the Jews kill their Lord, their messiah their creator. They totally reject Gods greatest gift and kill their King, this is the abomination that causes desolation. Again Gods spirit leaves the temple and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Again its not the Romans who commit the abominations but, it is the Jews. The crucifixion of their messiah was the abomination that caused their desolation If there is another abomination that causes desolation it will be because of the Jews, it is not an act done to them, but it is an act they do against their God, which causes their destruction, I would guess if they ever build a temple and start sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins, it will be the start of their destruction, which will bring in the second coming Thanks for your thoughts!!!! I agree with your writing. There are at least 2 things to consider about the AOD: 1) it certainly can not refer to the destruction of a physical element- the Temple, the Sanctuary, not even the entire nation of Israel. That was already done by God by the Babylonians. And that was due to their disobedience and idolatry against God. 2) It will not refer or apply to a physical element such as the Temple, Sanctuary, etc. because Christ did away with the entire Levitical system- need for a Temple, daily sacrifices, etc., through the cross. The Jews have been punished for the past 2000 years because of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. It was Gods plan from the beginning of time to blind the eyes of His people from recognizing their Messiah. What a price they have paid over the past 2000 years so the Gentiles might be saved. But as I mentioned before, God will make or do a divine act and give His people a “Damascus” experience (no different than Paul), and they will go out an preach God’s Word AND the Testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years… and that will bring in the second coming. Look forward to more / any of your thoughts even if the disagree with mine. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25 On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: I don't believe Peter understood who Jesus really was. He told Jesus he would try and prevent Him from the cross, he also denied knowing Him 3 times, and after the cross, he went right back to his day job of being a fisherman. Despite the miracles, the amazing wisdom He preached - all during a 3.5 year period, no one really understood who Jesus was... Jesus, even being presented in a very humble manner, even after all the miracles, is simply too big for us to take in. I agree. God is much too great for us who are in the flesh to understand. Even in the spirit after our death, we will spend eternity in awe of God, constantly amazed. On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: I disagree - sorry. In God's image of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms, There are more than 4 kingdoms shown. If you say that the clay is Israel in the feet and toes, where is the clay for the other kingdoms? The people of Israel existed during the first 3 kingdoms, if they are the clay, then where is the clay in the first three kingdoms? Why isn't the clay shown as being in the first 3? They existed at the same time. Babylon and Israel. Gold but no clay? The best that the clay shows is that the clay is non Roman gentile nations that rule over the children of Israel with Rome, while the Roman Empire falls apart and enters into the image beast toes era of the Vatican. The ten toes are 10 kings Dan 7:24. Those 10 kings (The 10 is symbolic of complete division) are seen as remnants of the 1st Roman Empire beast. Their loyalty is to the image beast Vatican after the fall of the Roman Empire, so in a sense, they are still tied to the power of the beast Vatican. But that does not mean that they are ethnic Romans, that is, descended from the Roman people themselves, genetically tied to actual people who lived in the city of Rome in that period. History shows that Rome did divide into different kingdoms on an ethnic basis, with some loyalty to Rome as a religious leader. So looking back now, we count the kingdoms on an ethnic basis, such as France, Italy, Spain, Greece, etc., but in the statue, we only see 10. If those nations are counted now, we see that there are far more than 10 and that has changed over the centuries. So the statue, looking back from the present, is showing more than 4 kingdoms, when you count the toes as individual kingdoms of ethnic diversity. Then add the clay which could be showing the same type of division. Is the clay on each toe a different gentile nation? Are there 2 or more different types of clay? Are they one nation or many different nations? On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: He established the 4th kingdom as pagan Rome. They would come into existence around 63BC. Pagan Rome was in existence long before 63 BC. That is the date that Rome invaded and began their beast reign over the children of Israel, ending the rule of Greece. On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: This was well after the beginning of Israel. But due to the tremendous power that would become Impreial Rome, the Jews would find themselves to be "sitting at the feet of this powerful kingdom" at the time of the coming Messiah. The gift of the Holy Spirit kingdom of Israel began in 33 AD on Pentecost Acts 2:38. Is the day of Pentecost shown as the stone striking the feet? Or is the day of Pentecost before the first division in the legs, in order to cause the first division? - The Roman Empire divided into east and west in the third century. So if the kingdom caused the first break or division, then that would put the day of Pentecost about 1 inch ish from the beginning of the iron. Then the stone striking shows Jesus coming for the kingdom at the 2nd resurrection/rapture (resur/rapt), which is followed by the last judgment and the new earth (Rev 20:11). - Dan 2:35, "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to pieces together, ...". If this happens after the stone strikes, when does it happen after the stone strikes? What causes the statue to fall and completely break in pieces? I mean, if the stone striking the feet doesn't cause the statue to fall at that time and the timeline continues into the toes, then when does the statue fall completely into pieces? What causes the statue to fall, if the stone doesn't cause it? Where is that event shown in the Dan 2 timeline, if the stone doesn't break the statue into chaff when it strikes? On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: This is also important to note that this is the timing of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - all things HAD to be fully restored after the Babylonian destruction BEFORE THE MESSIAH COULD ARRIVE Jerusalem and Israel were not restored at the time of Jesus. The statue of Dan 2 shows that the times of the Roman gentiles domination over the children of Israel was continuing at that time. So Israel and Jerusalem could not be restored during the time of the Dan 2 statue times of the gentiles. Jerusalem and Israel could not be restored until the times of the gentile trampling of Jerusalem was fulfilled, Lk 21:24. The statue begins when Jerusalem falls, the toes end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The toes ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was controlled by Israel. On 3/15/2024 at 12:59 AM, Charlie744 said: - HE WAS SYMBOLICALLY THE LAST PIECE OF FURNITURE TO BE RESTORED IN THE SANCTUARY - THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS THE FIRST PIECE TO BE REMOVED FROM THE CLUTCHES OF THE BABYLONIANS AND THIS WOULD / COULD ONLY BE RESTORED BY JESUS - HE WOULD BE THE FINAL PIECE RESTORED. And this is also important because in order for their to be a "divisi0n" there must be a complete "something" to divide. At the time of the cross, there is the relatively beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, the completion of ALL THINGS ISRAEL -PHYSICAL ELEMENTS, LEVITICAL CYCLES, ETC., BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE JEWISH NATION WOULD BE SITTING OR BEING OPPRESSED BY THE ROMANS. There was no nation, no peoples on the earth at that time that could compete, overcome or contest the Roman Empire - everyone was "under their feet." Israel was back at home and complete but it was symbolically contained within the Roman kingdom. They could not fight their way out or even peacefully get out from under Rome. And most important, is that they were very comfortable continuing in the Jewish faith - yes, they were expecting their Messiah to come, but not the One that did come. Meaning, it was the Stone that would be the only force (not military as expected by the Jews) that would break apart those of His people that would start His church. Nothing would have changed within Israel had Jesus not come to "divide" those who would go forth throughout the world preaching the One and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Jews kept Him to themselves even though that was their mission given to them by God at Mt. Sinai. Now, the "Potter" (Jeremiah) would break apart those of His people that would come to accept Him (pottery clay) vs. those that would continue their pre-cross Jewish ways (ceramic clay). They would not be broken apart from the holdings of pagan Rome in a military manner but in a spiritual manner. Verse 2:34 must be Jesus coming out of the mountain, carved without human hands to "break apart" the iron and the clay" and choose those of His people that He could use to preach His Word and His Testimony. Clearly, no kingdom was destroyed at His first coming -the remainder of the chapters in Daniel surely prove that and expand on the actors and events that would occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy (certainly chapter 9), and to the coming little horn. In the beginning of chapter 2, God gives Nebuchadnezzar a complete (big picture) of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that He wants us to see and consider on the earth. Their is no need to consider extra-biblical records (our history books) because this is not a history lesson from God. God is giving us 12 chapters of unbelievable prophecies using certainl actors and certain identified kingdoms - and all of these verses MUST paint the same picture - the coming of the Messiah and His plan of restoration for the Jews and mankind. So yes, the feet and the toes are complete in this "blueprint" of the metal man image. The clay is the only non-metallica element in the image for it is to reflect His people that will be sitting at the bottom of the feet of pagan R0me at the time of His coming. If you quickly look at any of the chapters that describe the first 3 kingdoms, there is not one that goes into such details and discussions as the 4th kingdom - because this is where all the important prophecies will occurr - His first coming tied nicely in with the 70 weeks of years prophecy, His 3.5 year ministry, His rejection and the cross, the beginning of His church after the cross and certainly the beginning of the little horn who would not come out of the 4th kingdom UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS - why, because the early church leaders (all Jews) would begin the church, they would preach to the Gentile world as commissioned by Jesus. They (Gentiles) would be seen in chapter 7 as "coming out of and behind the 10 kings" AFTER THE STONE IN CHAPTER 2 HAD BROKEN APART THE IRION AND THE CLAY. By the time of Constantine, the Gentiles had effectively taken over His church and removed the presences of the Jews (verses 2:41-43) and we will then find that after pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed (chapter 7) they would continue to climb in power and be found to "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. In the "dream sequence" (where God reveals the big picture to Nebuchadnezzar), he sees the 4 different types of metals (kingdoms) down to the FEET. Nebuchadnezzar does not see the 10 individual toes but the feet made of iron and clay only. This is also very symbolic since he does and could not understand nor recognize the toes or the clay. It is only when Daniel is given the "interpretation sequence" of verses (details - 2:41-43)) is the type of clay described and the 10 toes mentioned. Then he is given a series of comparisons to consider that reveal the different make up of what was within the feet - not only the types of clay but the continuation of iron (pagan Rome) that would continue AFTER THE CROSS. Just as God would break apart those of His people who would come to accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) AFTER THE CROSS from both the iron kingdom of pagan Rome AND those that would reject Him (ceramic clay), you will notice that the 10 toes (AFTER THE STONE STRIKES THE FEET) WERE ALSO BROKEN AWAY OR OUT FROM UNDER THE IRON KINGDOM OF PAGAN ROME. When we get to chapter 7, we find that the 4 specific parts are all now shown and discussed separately: 1) the iron element will stil continue for another 400 years as pagan Rome until it is slain / destroyed, 2) the ceramic clay (Jews who still rejected Jesus) would continue until this day but would be made "desolate" to their God, 3) the pottery clay (Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah) would begin His church and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world as commanded by Jesus (His earthly / early church), 4) the ten toes which were also oppressed and kept within the feet of pagan Rome would now be outside the feet (no longer mentioned with the "indescribable 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome in chapter 7). They would now be referred to separately as 10 horns or powers that CAME OUT OF THE 4TH KINGDOM BEAST (BEFORE THE CROSS). Well, I have not read that but we might be getting the same result as this.. however, when you identify that Jesus is the Stone that strikes the feet at His first coming, one can see the outcome - we have Daniel providing the consequences of His separating the iron and the clay as well as the 10 toes - they are not only reflected in verses 2:41-43, but they are discussed in greater details in chapters 7,8 9 and 11. All of these verses in all of these chapters only come about IF 2:34 OR THE STONE / JESUS breaks apart the iron and the clay elements in the feet at His first coming. This was His mission given to Him by His Father. No, the Roman Empire was "slain and its body destroyed" (chapter 7) around 467 AD. If you look at the progression of the 10 toes, you will find the following: 1) in chapter 2 they are shown as 10 toes held captive within the feet of pagan Rome - they were not going anywhere, 2) then in chapter 2 the Stone breaks apart the iron and the clay in the feet, 3) then in chapter 7, Daniel reveals the different entities separately as a result of the Stone striking the feet (only) - clearly this took place at His first coming because all 4 kingdoms are still alive and doing well and are now discussed quite differently AS A RESULT OF THE STRIKING OF THE FEET AND SEPARATING THE ELEMENTS. Now, the 10 toes are revealed as 10 horns (ONCE THEY ARE OUTSIDE THE ENCLOSED FEET) and are shown as horns or powers. 4) then they are discussed by Daniel as 10 kings in chapter 7. This ONLY comes about AFTER the demise of pagan Rome. Why? The 10 horns or powers have now climbed to the top of the 4th kingdom beast (again, pagan Rome was destroyed when this would take place). Now. these 10 kings reflect not only the power that was symbolically found as 10 horns (before their ascension to the top of the beast), but because they were shown as "kings" they would demand obedience. So we see a clear progression of the toes to the kings between chapter 2 and 7 - before the cross to the time pagan Rome is destroyed and the little horn takes power (papal Rome). Yes, as the church grew, the Gentiles would essentially take over the church. The Jews would be removed (they would mingle but would not adhere ...) meaning because the Gentiles would corrrupt the Word of God and bring in many forms of paganism, the Jews would not accept these practices - they would mingle or still be within the church until they were voluntarily removed or removed by the Gentile church leaders.By this time (from Constantine onward), the church would be run by the bishops - of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria - all fighting to head this tremenodus movement. But Rome would win out and the bishop of Rome would come to full power after pagan Rome was slain and he would become the pope or papacy of this church. The toes will NEVER end. but please note that the toes were in existence BEFORE THE CROSS (BEFORE THE STONE BROKE APART THE IRON AND THE CLAY), AND AFTER THE CROSS WHEN THEY WOULD BE REVEALED AS 10 HORNS AND 10 KINGS. I have not discussed the 4th and final progression of the 10 toes - also in chapter 7 but that would take up much more time to discuss .... But the bottom line, is the 10 toes / horns / kings will continue until the end of time. The statue does not fall - it was not meant to fall but to "house" the many messianic prophecies that would come through the 4 kingdoms. The 4th kingdom in the form of papal Rome is said to have to continue until the time of the end - and they will - the papacy and the false teachings of the church will continue until the end of time right before the coming of the Messiah. At the end of time, Jesus will destroy all 5 elements found in the image (2:45). This is the crushing into powder all the elements and thrown into the wind. His second coming when He will consummate His church. I don't know why you would say that... the Gentiles (you and me) are certainly here at this time.. 1967 has nothing to do with the Gentiles. It was an important date in secular Israel but they have not had the blindness removed from their eyes - because the time of the Gentiles has not come yet - but we are so close (imo). I agree, but as I mentiond in my last post, they will NOT turn to Jesus (corporately - since there certainly are many that have come to accept Jesus especially in the last 50 years or so), because It WILL BE A DIVINE EXPERIENCE. God will cause a divine act to remove the blindness from their eyes as He did with Paul. - Full cirlce - man can not do this....this is God's decision in His plan of salvation. I am sorry to disagree once again, but the time, times and 1/2 times ARE IN YEARS. But they are not referring to the "time of the Gentiles." The only way to answer this specifically is to bring back the discussion of the 10 toes. This time element speaks directly to the 10 toes / horns / kings and its fourth progression. So, it would be too confusing to bring in up at this time. Sorry, I have no idea what 7 you are referring to here. I hope you are not referring to 9:27 (one week), since that represents or is speaking of the "last 7 years or the last week" of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It is meant to say that Jesus would confirm the New Covenant WITHIN OR DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. This last 7 years of the prophecy was specificially "set aside" by God for His Messiah to fufill His 6 requirements (9:24) DURING THE FINAL WEEK OR THE WEEK OF HIS MINISTRY. The statue is found to be destroyed in verse 2:35 - the final threshing floor. Agree... thank God. i can certainly understand what you are saying and it wasn't until I studied Daniel that I believe there will and must be a "Damascus" experience that God will have on His people. 1) the NT clearly speaks of a "time of the Gentiles" and that it will come to an end. Why? Because when He deems it to end, He will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people to go out and preach the Word and the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL DID. Since after the 1st century the Word of God and the Testimonly of Jesus has been severely corrupted by the church. Paganism, idolatry, worshipping a man as God, changing His laws and commands, changing the Sabbath, on and on. It looks nothing like His church in the 1st century. God will open their eyes to preach the Gospel as it was meant to be taught and preached - which is nothing like today's christian churches. 2) It dovetails perfectly with God's timing of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The 4th Great and final Jubilee was to come to and end at the exact time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - exactly 3.5 years after the cross (the end of the final week in the prophecy). But because the Jews rejected their Messiah and crucified Him the counting of the final 4th Great Jubilee stopped. They were no longer in good standing with their God. They would be made "desolate" from their God for another 2000 years (cross = Abomination that caused their desolation). Consequently, there are still 3.5 years remaining to fulfill or complete the 4th Great Jubilee. This is NOT a requirement of God to fulfill - it can only be fulfilled by His people. When they fulfill this final 3.5 years, it will bring in the Messiah. Therefore, after God declares the time of the Gentiles is over, this is when He will turn to His people and open their eyes to the One they have pierced. They will go out in sackcloth and ashes mourning the One they rejected and pierced and will preach the Good News to the world for the last 3.5 years. It will complete the final 4th Great Jubilee and usher in the Messiah. Thank you so much and God bless. If you would like me to have Amazon send my book on the NEW Interpreations of the book of Daniel directly to you so you will see the reasoning and details behind these interpretations (no less than 35 new critivcal interpretations), please send me your contact information in a PM. If you do not feel comfortable giving me your contact information, you might be able to give me a "safe" address to send it to you without revealing your home address. It will be no cost to you. God bless, and I look forward to hearing back from you... again, it is literally impossible to properly respond to all of your terrific questions in this manner. It took me 5 years to unpack Daniel - it is not a short commentary but it is broken down by chapter and is an easy read (not necessarily a well written work because I am NO WRITER. My career was with numbers / spreadsheets, analysis, etc. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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