Tattoo Removal ~ ~ Ethics of Tattoo Removal ~ ~ Is it more Painful than Tattoos, And is it something a Christian at heart should Prayerfully Consider ? ? ?

[Truswell]

12 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I understand the passage. I've heard that it's the passage that caused the Amish to separate from the world so they could live holy. However while I think the Amish are more faithful Christians than most in society, they are also sinning by NOT impacting the world around them and by NOT leading others to Christ and evangelizing their neighbors. Being in the world is not the same as loving the world. Jesus didn't tell us to separate from the world.

  

On 12/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, Truswell said:

The First Epistle of John, Chapter Two 

The harmony of the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament is shown in red. 

Knowing the Father.

(1) My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, not only for ours, but also for the sins of the entire world. And because of this, we know we are one of his if we keep his commandments. 

“And now, O sons, listen to me: blessed are those who keep my ways.” Pro 8:32 

Jesus, our heavenly Father, is talking to us, His children. Although a child may disgrace his Father, he is still his son by fact of birth, but even so, he cannot condone sin, so he tells us not to sin. He said the same to the woman caught in adultery when he said, “Go and sin no more.” He knows our weaknesses and says, “If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father.” Jesus is our advocate, and heavenly Father (the One God), but even so he wants us to live righteous lives). 

~~~ 

(4) Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but the love of God perfects those who keep his word. By this, we know we are in him, and whoever says he abides in him ought to walk the same way he walked. 

Set the trumpet to your lips! One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant and rebelled against my law. To me, they cry, “My God, we—Israel—know you.” Israel has spurned the good; the enemy shall pursue him. Hos 8:1-3 

To walk the same way Jesus walked is the ambition of true Christians. They will turn their lives over to Jesus. Seek to follow Him in paths of righteousness, forsaking the things of the world while continually trying to keep His commandments and doing those things that are pleasing in His sight. We have a lifetime to accomplish this. 

~~~ 

(7) Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word that you have heard. Yet I am writing to you a new commandment that is true in him and you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbour, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbour as yourself: I am the LORD." (Lev 19:17-18) 

Who better to remind us of the old commandment to love one another, than the giver of the commandments himself? The old commandment was to love one another, but in John 13:34, Jesus added something new: “To love one another, just as I have loved you.” That is so deep, especially as the love of Jesus extends to the whole world.

John Gill comments, “This seems levelled against the Jews. They make hatred of the brother lawful by saying if one man observes sin in another and reproves him for it, and he does not receive his reproof, it is lawful to hate him.” 

~~~ 

(12) “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven, for his name’s sake. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.” 

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD so that he shall have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isa 55:7) 

There are other fathers. These are men and women of deep, long spiritual standing. They have the kind of walk with God that doesn’t come overnight. These are like great oak trees in the Lord, that have grown big and strong through the years. 

~~~ 

(15) Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not from the Father, but from the world. 

Why, O LORD, do you stand far away? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? In arrogance, the wicked hotly pursue the poor; let them be caught in the schemes they have devised. For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul, and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the LORD. In the pride of his face, the wicked do not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.” (Psa 10:1-4) 

People have dealt with this by becoming monks and nuns, but Jesus intended us to be in the world, not of the world. We see this in His prayer to the Father in John 17:14–18. “I do not ask that you take them out of the world (followers of Jesus), but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them with the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.”

Jesus warned us of worldly dangers in Luke 17:26–33. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating, drinking, marrying, and being given in marriage until the day Noah entered the Ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. So will it be on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise, let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 

~~~ 

(18) And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. It is the last hour, and you have heard the antichrist is coming, and many have already come. Therefore, we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but were not of us. If they had been, they would have continued with us. But they went out, so it becomes clear they are not of us. 

Be careful, therefore, to love the LORD your God. For if you turn back and cling to the remnant of these nations remaining among you, and make marriages with them, so that you associate with them and they with you, know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you, but they shall be a snare and trap for you, a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good ground that the LORD your God has given you. (Jos 23:11-13) 

Those who put their faith in Jesus have been “anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is the truth. Who is the liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? The antichrist is he who denies the Father and the Son.  No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you, too, will abide in the Son and the Father in you.  And this is the promise he made to us—eternal life.” 

John finishes in verse twenty-six.
I write these things to you about those who are deceiving you. But the anointing you received from him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, it is true and is no lie—just as it has taught you to abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears, we have confidence and do not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know he is righteous, you can be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. 

The following verses are a grave warning. 1 John 4:3; 1 John 2:18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7. They tell us, “Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is from God is the spirit of the antichrist, which is in the world already. 

For warnings against denying the Son read 1 John 2:18-4:6 

 

[farouk]

Hi @debrakay Did you see this thread someone started?

All the young ppl with Bible verses tattooed with whom I have spoken seem to have gone into the tattoo parlor to receive a witness tool ink up. (Which you would know...anyway.)

[farouk]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

A tattoo can certainly be for God's glory, therefore not all tattoos are earthly.

My wife and I talked to a young lady with the whole of the wording of John 3.16 painstakingly tattooed onto her wrist area; it was her favorite Bible verse and mine also; and I'm sure other conversations have arisen out of her willingness to go into the tattoo parlor and get inked up with it.

[farouk]

Hi @Retrobyter I saw your response to one of the other posts. I'm not saying "you should get a faith based tattoo" or anything like that, but like you imply it's good to remember that Hebrews 7 and Galatians variously show that NT believers are not formally under the law and indeed the law was changed and what we now have is better than the law.

[believeinHim]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:24 AM, Scott Free said:

A local university hospital did a study on tattoos and found a 80% chance of current or past drug use. Consequently they decided to no longer hire people with tattoos. Everything speaks. It is stigmatic, but can be used as a conversation starter to proclaim your hearts conversion.

I have no problem with CBD oil, or CBD cream. Nor with CBD gummies, either. I also take several of my own medications. 

Edited January 2 by believeinHim

[believeinHim]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:48 PM, farouk said:

@believeinHim So has he in any case ever shown even the slightest interest in removing his tattoos?

@farouk, I got an advertisements for a microblading eyebrow pencil that looks promising, So I will not be needing to tattoo over the scar above my right eyebrow. Don't know if that is all attached to my computer or not, But it just came up for me recently on Twitter. 

[farouk]

Hi @Debp Happy new year to you, in the goodness of God.

Re. your earlier comment:

..........................................

 A former neighbor, a young lady, had all of her arms and all of her legs totally covered with tattoos.    I didn't understand why she would want to totally cover herself but that was her choice.

..........................................

I reckon we have to face the fact that so many ppl do seem to find it compelling. @Renskedejonge just recently said:

"We had a girl in church who had her arms covered in tattoos."

IMHO, the main thing is not whether ppl have tattoos or not, but whether they come to Christian gatherings in order listen to the Word of God or - whether they actually come physically to gatherings - whether they diligently read the Word prayerfully for themselves.

As @Scott Free just said:

"Everything speaks. .. can be used as a conversation starter to proclaim your hearts conversion."

Since a lot of ppl seem to find it compelling as a manly means of expression - a womanly means of expression - a coming-of-age means of expression - it probably inevitable that among Christians who use a tattoo parlor to get inked up many of them would see it as a compelling means of faith expression, as @Scott Free implied.

cc @Thewhitedove

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

Hi @Debp Happy new year to you, in the goodness of God.

Re. your earlier comment:

..........................................

 A former neighbor, a young lady, had all of her arms and all of her legs totally covered with tattoos.    I didn't understand why she would want to totally cover herself but that was her choice.

..........................................

I reckon we have to face the fact that so many ppl do seem to find it compelling. @Renskedejonge just recently said:

"We had a girl in church who had her arms covered in tattoos."

IMHO, the main thing is not whether ppl have tattoos or not, but whether they come to Christian gatherings in order listen to the Word of God or - whether they actually come physically to gatherings - whether they diligently read the Word prayerfully for themselves.

As @Scott Free just said:

"Everything speaks. .. can be used as a conversation starter to proclaim your hearts conversion."

Since a lot of ppl seem to find it compelling as a manly means of expression - a womanly means of expression - a coming-of-age means of expression - it probably inevitable that among Christians who use a tattoo parlor to get inked up many of them would see it as a compelling means of faith expression, as @Scott Free implied.

cc @Thewhitedove

She covered it up with sleeves. I had no idea she had em, but she said she spent thousands on getting these tattoos removed. What a pity of your money. She was single and had savings and wanted to do it herself, but imagine if she was a single mom with hardly a cent. I'd say let em be and spend it on the kids. Who cares about those tattoos.

Edited January 2 by Renskedejonge

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, farouk said:

Hi @Retrobyter I saw your response to one of the other posts. I'm not saying "you should get a faith based tattoo" or anything like that, but like you imply it's good to remember that Hebrews 7 and Galatians variously show that NT believers are not formally under the law and indeed the law was changed and what we now have is better than the law.

Shalom, farouk.

True, but be careful. The NEW Covenant is the same as the Old; it's only written UPON THE HEARTS of those who will keep the Law. Paul is quite clear that there is nothing wrong with the Law, and Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") told us that He did not come to abolish the Law, but rather to FULFILL it. He actually ENDORSED the Law, when He summed up the commandments into the two commandments to Love God and to Love  One's Neighbor as Oneself, saying that "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets!" (Matthew 22:40).

Paul said, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,and just, and good." (Romans 7:12).

It's not that "NT believers are not formally under the Law"; rather, it's that "GENTILES" are not under the Law: 

Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 

The author of Hebrews CONFIRMED this New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:1-13 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum:

We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for,

"See," saith he, "[that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith,

"Behold, the days come," saith the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not," saith the Lord. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," saith the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

While the OLD COVENANT (which the children of Israel broke) is superceded by the New Covenant, the LAW OF GOD remains intact! The ONLY "saving grace," so to speak, is that Yeeshuwa` perfectly KEPT the Law in our place, and through His Sacrifice, we are justified by God and we are DECLARED to be God's Righteousness in His Son IN SPITE of our sins (the sins of disobeying God's Law, which are many)!

[farouk]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, farouk.

True, but be careful. The NEW Covenant is the same as the Old; it's only written UPON THE HEARTS of those who will keep the Law. Paul is quite clear that there is nothing wrong with the Law, and Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") told us that He did not come to abolish the Law, but rather to FULFILL it. He actually ENDORSED the Law, when He summed up the commandments into the two commandments to Love God and to Love  One's Neighbor as Oneself, saying that "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets!" (Matthew 22:40).

Paul said, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,and just, and good." (Romans 7:12).

It's not that "NT believers are not formally under the Law"; rather, it's that "GENTILES" are not under the Law: 

Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 

The author of Hebrews CONFIRMED this New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:1-13 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum:

We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for,

"See," saith he, "[that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith,

"Behold, the days come," saith the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not," saith the Lord. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," saith the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

While the OLD COVENANT (which the children of Israel broke) is superceded by the New Covenant, the LAW OF GOD remains intact! The ONLY "saving grace," so to speak, is that Yeeshuwa` perfectly KEPT the Law in our place, and through His Sacrifice, we are justified by God and we are DECLARED to be God's Righteousness in His Son IN SPITE of our sins (the sins of disobeying God's Law, which are many)!

@Retrobyter Thanks for your considered post there.

We did just ate pork chops for supper.

I'm not sure about the idea of giving a young lady - like the one my wife and I talked to with John 3.16 tattooed on her wrist - a hard time by using a sort of 'anti-pork chop' argument.

Okay; you weren't exactly saying this.

But I wonder whether in the light of passages such as Romans 14 about Christian liberty we can really draw the line too finely....