rich man and lazarus 14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[phoneman-777]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from claiming the passage is literal:

 

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?

The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are irrelevant.

 

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?

Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

 

3. LYING EYES?

The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

 

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

 

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING

(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

 

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS

(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to.

 

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

 

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

 

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

 

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD

(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

 

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS

(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

 

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE

(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

 

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP

(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

 

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT

(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

Edited July 28, 2023 by phoneman-777

[Markie51]

     I agree with your conclusion: however, I can add support to your reasoning.

     Jesus Christ was speaking to his disciples in the present of the Pharisees and scribes prior to the account at Luke 16:19-31; and, often taught a lesson by telling a story through the means of parables or illustrations. 

     In this illustration, the rich man depicts the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple/fine linen, very self-righteous; and, were proud of being Abraham’s offspring. (Matthew 23:27, 28; Romans 3:1, 2; Revelation 19:8)  The beggar, Lazarus, depicts the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy.  Being neglected, they were hungering and thirsting for righteousness (spiritually ill); and, who appreciated their need of Christ Jesus.-John 7:49; Matthew 5:6; Mark 2:17.

     The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes.  This should be no surprise to us because the Bible shows that death can be used symbolically, representing people as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a great change in one’s life or course of action. Compare Romans 6:2, 11-13; 7:4-6; Colossians 3:3; 1 Timothy 5:6.  A death, or change from former conditions, happened when Jesus fed the Lazarus class spiritually; and, they thus came into the favor of the greater Abraham: God.  At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor.  Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers after Pentecost forcefully exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57)  So this illustration is not literal and does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

     Furthermore, it is not reasonable or Scriptural to believe that a man suffers torment simply because he is rich, wears good clothing and has plenty to eat.  It is not Scriptural to believe that one is blessed with heavenly life just because he is a beggar.  Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of “fiery” punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not spiritually feed the poor.  Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven. 

     Finally, “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13)  The resurrection of the dead did not start at that time. 

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:45 AM, phoneman-777 said:

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from claiming the passage is literal:

Parable just means teaching, so when Jesus... who cannot lie.... said "there was a certain beggar named Lazarus", you are still claiming Jesus was just making stuff up???

What Jesus says is true and what you say... not so much!

Jesus describes hell in the following ways:

Luke 16:23 – a place of eternal torment

Mark 9:43 – a place of unquenchable fire

Mark 9:48 – a place where the worm does not die

Matthew 13:42 – a place where people gnash their teeth in anguish and regret

Luke 16:19-31 – a place of no return

Matthew 25:30 – a place of outer darkness

It's very sad when those who claim to be Christians claim Jesus is not telling the truth.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Stan Murff

[garee]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:45 AM, phoneman-777 said:

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from claiming the passage is literal:

 

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?

The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are irrelevant.

 

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?

Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

 

3. LYING EYES?

The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

 

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

 

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING

(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

 

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS

(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to.

 

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

 

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

 

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM

(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

 

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD

(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

 

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS

(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

 

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE

(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

 

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP

(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

 

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT

(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

I see that parable of the "Two Teaching Masters" a little differently.

The subject matter of parable begins with a series of parables one right after another beginning in the previous chapter 15 .As always the teaching our daily bread  has to do with false teachers teaching as teaching commandments of men (oral traditions)

A venerable false power called Mamon riches of this world dying men lording it over the non venerable pew warmers. (pagan foundation) 

The parable helps to understand the metaphors "dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool the tongue;" as one under the judgment thirsting for the gospel the hidden understanding. . Christian receive  mercy mixed with grace the moment they believe quenching thier appetite for true riches (eternal life)     

We know God does not speak to the dead  disembodied spirits (necromancy) some call patron saints.  

Using various means to gain the riches beyond what they eyes see as work we can do is opposed to the true unsen riches the water of the gospel it can cool the new tongue. Proverbs informs us to buy the gospel  truth as power  and not sell it for the pleasures of this world   .    

If they will not hear the word of God signified by Moses and the prophets then they have sold the truth of the gospel to the god of this world, the god of mammon Like cain or esaul for a cup of hairy goat soup . having no desire for the riches of the gospel 

Luke 16: 13 “You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one master and love the other. Or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God (word) and Money (the riches of this world) at the same time.”

Again two teaching masters  Two kinds of riches.  Two opposing teaching authorities .Light and darkness. 

Luke 16: 31 If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Believing God is believing God.  Seeing man rise is seeing.  God is not a man . . Many turn thier heads away and did not looking by faith "believing the gospel" .Not by sight seeing. Its when he sees the blood not when we literally see it the sign follows  the work of believing . and it was very good.  The law of faith  the true riches .When he longingly commands us to look  we can look when he commands us not to look  he exercises the same power of his nighty faith.  another poster called him the counterfeiter .The Legion  that turns things (true riches upside down) as if inspired from earth 

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

 

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

19 hours ago, garee said:

God is not a man . .

The Word became flesh and walked among us.

Jesus IS God and He is in the form of a man now and He is risen in all God's glory and sits at God's right hand.

God and His Word cannot be separated.  Jesus said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father!

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Parable just means teaching, so when Jesus... who cannot lie.... said "there was a certain beggar named Lazarus", you are still claiming Jesus was just making stuff up???

What Jesus says is true and what you say... not so much!

Jesus describes hell in the following ways:

Luke 16:23 – a place of eternal torment

Mark 9:43 – a place of unquenchable fire

Mark 9:48 – a place where the worm does not die

Matthew 13:42 – a place where people gnash their teeth in anguish and regret

Luke 16:19-31 – a place of no return

Matthew 25:30 – a place of outer darkness

It's very sad when those who claim to be Christians claim Jesus is not telling the truth.

Nice. It is settled in one sentence. If our Lord Jesus told a story about Abraham that did not happen, He is caught in a lie (perish the thought).

[WilliamL]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:45 AM, phoneman-777 said:

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about.

Utterly false. (I note that you don't actually quote the verse.)

An excerpt from one of my blogs:

When the physical body dies, its soul becomes separated from its dwelling. The carnal soul soon descends to its kind in Hades/Hell. The righteous soul ascends to its kind in heaven, where it is “given a white robe” (Rev. 6:11) derived from that soulʼs “righteous acts” while on earth:

Revelation 3:5 “The one overcoming shall be clothed in white garments… 18 I counsel you to buy from Me…white garments, that you may be clothed, and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed…” 19:8 …the fine linen [garment] is the righteous acts of the saints. 1 Peter 5:5 …be clothed with humility…

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [= physical body] of our tabernacle [= soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed having been clothed we shall not be found naked… 4 …but…that mortality may be swallowed up by life. * “This”/toutō is neuter, agreeing with verse 1ʼs tabernacle, not house.

Up until the End of the Age, the garments of the souls of the dead are comprised solely of either a heavenly or a hellish substance. These souls are therefore restricted to their respective heavenly and hellish realms. At the resurrection of the dead, however, the material (this earthly realmʼs) body will be raised and be restored to the souls of the dead, just as Jesusʼ body was to Him.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/

The martyred souls below the altar at the 5th Seal (Rev. 6:11) have yet to be resurrected, yet they receive heavenly bodies in the meantime.

 

[AdHoc]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:45 PM, phoneman-777 said:

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from claiming the passage is literal:

 

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?

The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are irrelevant.

 

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?

Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

 

3. LYING EYES?

The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

 

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

I will address the first four so that I'm not accused of only answering selectively.

1. Our Lord Jesus is rewarded with a name above every name. At His name shall every knee bow and every tongue confess - even those "under the earth" (Phil.2.10). That is, those in Hades. Could it be that scripture allows illustrations to explain things real? Was it really a lamb who John Baptist introduced at Jordan? 

2. The student of scripture does very well to see how the Holy Spirit uses words. "Bosom" is a well-used concept used throughout scripture to indicate a person who gives comfort and intimacy. Scripture is full of real and literal things that have an enhancing picture attached. God is a Spirit. How then does He have a hand? Did not our Lord say that a spirit has no flesh or bones in Luke 24?

3. You may have to reconsider. Jesus promised the malefactor on the cross with Him that they would be in Paradise together. Matthew 12:40 says that Jesus spent the three days in the heart of the earth and Ephesians 4:8-9 says He descended FIRST. Paradise must be below the earth. On the third day He ROSE and advised Mary that He had not YET ascended to His Father. Paradise is under the earth.

4. The dispensing of God with Israel concerned the Land and temporal blessings. Thus, when the grave is in view, scripture speaks of the end of sensory inputs - physical death. Your scriptures address the BODIES of the dead. The New Testament deals with the setting aside of the flesh and the embracing of things spiritual and things of the SOUL. Ever since Genesis 2:7 man is called a SOUL. Bodies go to the grave unconscious. SOULS go to Hades fully conscious - unless the Lord was confused when He said that the malefactor would be able to discern that they were together. As a side note, our Lord answered nothing about the kingdom. The malefactor did not fulfill one qualification for the Kingdom. Rebirth as a result of faith only qualifies one to "SEE" the Kingdom - not ENTER (Jn.3:3). The malefactor admitted his sins unto the death penalty. Only the righteous enter the Kingdom (1st Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5).

I applaud your quest to apply the literal in the narrative. Why did you not apply it from the beginning? There is no reason that it has to be taken as a parable. Our Lord Jesus used proper names and named characters well known to the reader.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Nice. It is settled in one sentence. If our Lord Jesus told a story about Abraham that did not happen, He is caught in a lie (perish the thought).

Sop you think Jesus is a liar?

That ends badly you know.

[teddyv]

23 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Parable just means teaching

Where do you get this definition from?

Parables are simple stories to illustrate a point. The Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son, among others, were not real accounts.