Many doubts about Christianity

[JesusismyLord]

Again this sounds like the most amazing man in the world, wether you like him or not, but it is baffling that so little is mentioned about him. King Herod has much more written about him in world history. There were earlier posts saying he was in a small town, but feeding the 4,000 and the 5,000 men not including woman and chidren is another tremendous miracle that isn;t spoken of anywhere.

Is there evidence of Daniel being mentioned in the historical Babylonian records or writings about Babylon - considering the prominant role that Daniel played to both Babylonian and Medo-Persian kings?

Your sidestepping the question, but daniels incident was one time and no there is no historical proof. That doesnt answer my question. Daniel was alos not credited with doing so many things that the whole world would be filled with books by what he did.

[Guest shiloh357]

Here is how Yochanan Ben Zakkai formed modern Judaism. This shows form a Jewish Scholar, how Judaism we know it came to be. Please note the Bolded parts.

Johanan ben Zakkai Biography Biography

The Jewish teacher Johanan ben Zakkai (active ca. AD 70) was the leading expounder of Jewish law of his time. He founded an important academy at Yavneh.

Johanan ben Zakkai was the youngest among the numerous disciples of the great Hillel and also of Hillel's opponent Shammai. It therefore appears that Johanan was born about 15 B.C. He evidently lived to a ripe old age, for he survived the destruction of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Tradition speaks of his span of life as 120 years. His brilliant mind and diligence enabled him to become conversant with every field of Jewish learning.

Johanan ben Zakkai was a member of the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, the assembly of 71 ordained scholars that functioned both as supreme court and as a legislature. In that body, Johanan, a Pharisee, often debated his Sadducean colleagues on issues of Jewish law. While in Jerusalem, he also presided over an important yeshiva. Johanan foresaw that the Jews could not be victorious in their desperate struggle against Rome; he was determined, however, that Judaism should not perish even if the Jewish state and the Temple were destroyed.

While Jerusalem was under siege, Johanan was unable to receive permission to leave the city. He therefore had his pupils carry him out of Jerusalem in a coffin, presumably for burial. Once outside the city, Johanan went to see Vespasian and asked the Roman general to spare the town of Yavneh on the Mediterranean coast, together with its scholars. According to a Talmudic tradition, Johanan predicted to Vespasian that he would soon be chosen emperor, and when this came true, Vespasian granted the rabbi his requests. This was a turning point in Jewish history, for in this unimportant town of Yavneh, Johanan established an academy that had immense influence.

Johanan was not formally designated as Nasi, prince or head of the Sanhedrin, probably because he was not a descendant of Hillel or of Davidic stock, as Hillel was. He nonetheless assumed the duties of this office and the title of Rabban, meaning "our master," which was commonly attached to the rank of Nasi. Yavneh replaced Jerusalem as the new seat of a reconstituted Sanhedrin, which reestablished its authority and became a means of reuniting Jewry.

With the Temple gone, a substitute was necessary for the sacrificial cult. The aged Johanan suggested that the Temple worship be replaced by benevolent deeds; under his influence, the synagogue and house of study replaced the Temple. The important principle was thus established that Judaism does not depend for its existence on land or sanctuary but rather on the preservation of the Jewish spiritual heritage--the Torah and its teachings. This principle played a vital role in the survival of Judaism in the Diaspora.

True to the ideals of his master Hillel, Rabban Johanan advocated peace among men and nations. He was scrupulously ethical in all his dealings and behavior. He taught that the best character attribute a man could possess is a good heart, which he believed included all other virtues. His lofty attitudes and doctrines made Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai the most revered teacher of his times.

Further Reading

Jacob Neusner, A Life of Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai (1960), is a good general study with a bibliography. The sage and his work are discussed in "Disciples of the Wise" in Louis Ginsberg, Students, Scholars and Saints (repr. 1945). A good sketch of Johanan ben Zakkai's work at Yavneh is in chapter 7 in George Foote Moore, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, vol. 1 (1927). A historical account is in Heinrich Graetz, History of the Jews, vol. 2, translated by Henrietta Szold (repr. 1940).

Retrieved from Book Rags

And from another site, I retrieved this:

Rebbi Yochanan could not save the city of Yerushalayim itself, he at least rescued the great Torah Sages and thereby insured that the study of Torah would continue uninterruptedly. (Gittin 56)

As he was once walking in Yerushalayim and saw the Bais Ha'mikdosh laying in ruins, his student Rebbi Yehosuah remarked, "Woe to us that the place where we were able to obtain our forgiveness lies in ruins". "My son" answered Rebbi Yochanan. "We must always remember that we are still left with one method of forgiveness that is her equal, and that is gemilas chasodim-doing good deeds."

He would tell his students that there are three things that merit a person with a share in the world to come and they are: a) Living in Eretz Yisroel b) Bringing up one's children to Torah Study c) Reciting Havdala on wine on Motzoei Shabbos. (Pesochim 113)

Retrieved from>>>http://www.campsci.com/iguide/rebbi_yochanan_ben_zakkai.htm

From doing some little research, it says he was leader of the Pharisees of Jerusalem before the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, afterward founder of the Jewish academy at Jamnia , biblical Jabneel and Jabneh . He emphasized the study of the Torah as the primary religious duty for which humankind was created. After A.D. 70 he taught that deeds of loving kindness might replace sacrifice in achieving atonement.

It doesnt say that they didn;t follow torah before this, but that it now became the primary religious duty and he replaced the sacrifice with deeds of loving kindess.

Christainity also has changed through the years, you had the catholic church from possibley 200 A.D. till 1515 when protestants came out. Within this 1300 years it was all catholics. There is no difference from Johanan ben Zakkai than Martin Luther. I would somewhat agree with your statement about Torah law after the destruction, but I wouldnt agree that it is totally non existant either.

That is not the point. The point is that you are judging Christianity by what what you think is a religion that follows Torah, and it doesn't. Christianty cannot be judged by a religion that itself is not based on the Torah as if Judaism is a Torah based religion.

[nebula]

Not really.

Since you have been promoting Judaism, I thought I'd bring up someone the Jews believe existed for a comparison.

Both Jesus and Daniel lived in the Ancient world.

It's not like they had reporters and other people making careers out of writing back then.

Especially in an "uncivilized" (by Western/ Roman standards) as Israel!

And I don't see "scribe" listed among Jesus' followers.

My point is that you are making a claim based on assumptions rather than facts.

I know of no other writings, andin my interpretation of history there should have been if it were so; therefore, Jesus didn't exist.

It is an argument that is as ungrounded as the "If God is omnipotent, can He make a stone that He cannot lift?"

Using such "logic" to discredit faith is evidence of a very weak faith to have begun with.

[nebula]

By the way -

i don't have time to research this personally -

But I found a simple answer to your question, anyway:

Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that prove that Jesus ever really lived?"

our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ], the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome also."1

Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2

The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."3

Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the early Christians.

Source

[JesusismyLord]

By the way -

i don't have time to research this personally -

But I found a simple answer to your question, anyway:

Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that prove that Jesus ever really lived?"

our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ], the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome also."1

Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2

The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."3

Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the early Christians.

Source

Cornelius Tacitus was not a contempory of Jesus, he was born 20 after Christ death, and his writings date to 110 A.D. or so. PLus his information is coming from others that either heard of Jesus, he wasn't an eye witness to Jesus, so if a person told him why christians die for Jesus, this doesnt mean thats the truth.

I do believe A person names Jesus did walk this earth, was a jew and a teacher, the rest is blurred because the discples wrote it and the apostle Paul. But Cornelius Tacitus writings may prove Jesus existed, but not described in the NT. There is a shortage of the many miracles he did on earth and all the other stuff in the NT, he raised how many people from the dead, the little girl Jairus daughther, Lazarus and even the book of Acts says Paul and Peter healed and brought back people to life but this isnt recorded anywhere either.

[Guest shiloh357]

By the way -

i don't have time to research this personally -

But I found a simple answer to your question, anyway:

Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that prove that Jesus ever really lived?"

our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ], the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome also."1

Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2

The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."3

Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the early Christians.

Source

Cornelius Tacitus was not a contempory of Jesus, he was born 20 after Christ death, and his writings date to 110 A.D. or so. PLus his information is coming from others that either heard of Jesus, he wasn't an eye witness to Jesus, so if a person told him why christians die for Jesus, this doesnt mean thats the truth.

I do believe A person names Jesus did walk this earth, was a jew and a teacher, the rest is blurred because the discples wrote it and the apostle Paul. But Cornelius Tacitus writings may prove Jesus existed, but not described in the NT. There is a shortage of the many miracles he did on earth and all the other stuff in the NT, he raised how many people from the dead, the little girl Jairus daughther, Lazarus and even the book of Acts says Paul and Peter healed and brought back people to life but this isnt recorded anywhere either.

Do you have any credible historian contemporary with Jesus, that can demonstrate conclusively Jesus did NOT perform miracles? Do you have any credible historical sources that can prove that Jesus is still dead? Do you have any credible historical sources that can demonstrate conclusively Peter and Paul did not perform the miracles ascribed to them during their ministry????

Do you have ANYTHING outside of your desire to reject the truth to support your assertions that Bible is not credible as a historical account of the life of Jesus? Let's apply your standards against you and require you to first demonstate conclusively that the Bible's account of the miracles cannot be trusted, from extra-biblical historical sources that were contemporary with the day that Jesus lived. Let's see if you can operate by the standard you set for us.

So far, all you have done is try to claim that Judaism birthed Christianity, and I have demonstrated that it cannot be so, since Judaism began after the Temple was destroyed, and Christianity as already in exstence. You don't know enough to actually offer much of a credible attack on the Christian faith.

Edited November 10, 2005 by shiloh357

[nebula]

I am going to repeat this.

Not really.

Since you have been promoting Judaism, I thought I'd bring up someone the Jews believe existed for a comparison.

Both Jesus and Daniel lived in the Ancient world.

It's not like they had reporters and other people making careers out of writing back then.

Especially in an "uncivilized" (by Western/ Roman standards) as Israel!

And I don't see "scribe" listed among Jesus' followers.

My point is that you are making a claim based on assumptions rather than facts.

I know of no other writings, andin my interpretation of history there should have been if it were so; therefore, Jesus didn't exist.

It is an argument that is as ungrounded as the "If God is omnipotent, can He make a stone that He cannot lift?"

Using such "logic" to discredit faith is evidence of a very weak faith to have begun with.

[Smalcald]

"I do believe A person names Jesus did walk this earth, was a jew and a teacher, the rest is blurred because the discples wrote it and the apostle Paul. But Cornelius Tacitus writings may prove Jesus existed, but not described in the NT. There is a shortage of the many miracles he did on earth and all the other stuff in the NT, he raised how many people from the dead, the little girl Jairus daughther, Lazarus and even the book of Acts says Paul and Peter healed and brought back people to life but this isnt recorded anywhere either."

Just a couple of points. I assume when you are saying, "the rest is blurred because the disciples wrote it and the Apostle Paul" that you assume that they are lying? But if you don

[Catsmeow]

This question is for JIML:

Simple and childlike: Do you want to believe and know Jesus? Where is your heart?

[nebula]

Has this forum ever considered having a special place for Rabbinicals to come in and discuss/debate, or is that viewed to be "burdensome" for many posters?

Mark -

The frustration is that he has a name that is deceptive to his preaching.

Also, in a different thread he sounded like he was asking for help, when every response indicates that he already made up hois mind, and in another place posted that he wants to convince everyone of the "truth" as he believes it.

That to me says, "Deception," and this is why I have been angered.