How did these get in the Bible???

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

That's all true!

Now, try to explain to those that embrace once saved always saved who think turning away from our sin is optional... you know, a personal decision whether we wanna do that or not.

They say if one turns away from their sin then they are trying to earn their salvation which makes them works based... so in their view if one is truly saved by grace they cannot just turn away from their sin.

This kind of teaching is a stumbling block to believers!

Best not to get bogged down in divisive doctrinal disputes, but rather to build on the solid foundation of Christ.

In Hebrews 6 Paul wrote about moving on from the elementary teachings of Christ.

Repentance from dead works and faith toward God are fundamental components of the Christian Life. When Paul speaks of not laying them again he has in mind those who struggle with these basic concepts and therefore lack stability and support to further build their relationship with God and do His Will. 

 Heb 5:7-14  During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.  (8)  Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered.  (9)  And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him  (10)  and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.  (11)  We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing.  (12)  Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food!  (13)  For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness.  (14)  But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

[com7fy8]

8 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

OK, so if one gets saved and keeps living in sin... it's God's fault.

If one is not walking in those good works, it's somehow a failure on God's part... I've heard this before and it's not biblical.

To my knowledge, I did not actually say that, you can not quote me to have said that, plus it is not what I mean. And I will offer >

It is not God's fault. Neither I nor God's word has said that sinning is God's fault or failure.

"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God can not be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone." (James 1:13)

But yes God is in control of which way Satan is allowed to go and what he is allowed to do. But it is Satan's fault and failure how he can have the character to do evil.

It's like if you have a forest fire. The fire is not your fault, but you can more or less control which way the fire is allowed to move or not, possibly.

Evil is a reality, but God can decide which way it goes so it does not do all the harm it would >

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

So, yes ones can misrepresent God, and blame Him, in their pride, but He is effectively resisting them so they . . . fail 

[com7fy8]

8 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

 

John 15:5,6
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

And Jesus guarantees how His sheep will not follow another > John 10:1-30. If they will not follow another, then they can not lose their salvation.

So, who then is not Jesus' sheep and therefore not abiding? I think of Romans 9-11 which talks about the people of God who were broken off because of their unbelief. They never truly believed, in the first place, but positionally only they were the people of God, but never God's sheep.

So, if we trust in the Jesus who keeps His sheep, we are guaranteed.

This is because God changes a person out of the person's old free will (2 Corinthians 5:17), and now God who has been trusted to save us "works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippiand 2:13)

And God succeeds in having us live for Him, and He continues His good work in us and does not fail > Philippians 1:6.

So, I offer this is correct once saved always saved doctrine; and so it is indeed false once saved always saved doctrine to claim that ones can get saved and keep sinning, and turn away from God, then go the Heaven. That is not Biblical once saved always saved doctrine, because God succeeds in doing what we have trusted Him to do, including changing us into obedient children who do not have the character to leave Him, because of how He is changing us to become more and more like Jesus.

We have trusted Jesus to save us so we do not lose our salvation

And this includes how He succeeds in changing our character so we are obedient and therefore do not keep on sinning and leave Him.

We are guaranteed His correction of our character so we join in His holiness and stay with Him > Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees this correction worked by God in us. 

[com7fy8]

What I offered is >

"So, if God saves a person, the person is safe."

And to this you . . .

9 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Even if they go back and live in sin!

I know, I've heard it all before.
 

Except, that is not what I said or meant.

I mean, if the real Jesus saves a person, He makes the person safe from sinning and leaving Him.

So, I am not saying the false once saved always saved teaching that a saved person can live in sin and go to Heaven. But I am saying, if the real God saves you, He makes you safe from losing your salvation and safe from living in sin and forsaking Him.

Because He corrects our character so we do not have the character to go back to Satan.

But there are false conversions, as God's word indicates >

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;"

This is in God's word, in 1 John 2:19.

So . . . if God saves a person, He makes the person safe. And this includes being safe from going back and living in sin. If a person can do that, he or she is not safe the way our Heavenly Father makes a person safe, as we have trusted Him to do. The real God does not fail our trust.

[com7fy8]

God saves someone so the person is safe . . . from falling.

But there are ones who can be climbing a cliff, trying to get themselves to the top, but they fall and never were safe on the top. They were trying their own way of conversion, so they fell! They were never safe on top.

Meanwhile others trust the one who can bring them to the top and keep them safe there.

Colossians 3:1-4 can help us see how Jesus has already raised people to be with Him in the Heavenly places. It is safe here.

But Satan and his did not have the character to stay.

"be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:5)

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (Romans 13:14)

"we who first trusted in Christ" (in Ephesians 1:12) >

This means how our Father has drawn people (John 6:44-45) to trust in Jesus. This includes submitting to Him in His "yoke" (Matthew 11:29), learning from Him (John 6:45, Matthew 11:29), and depending on Him to make us safe by making us like Him > Hebrews 12:4-14, Romans 13:14, and 1 John 4:17 >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, clearly our Father has perfected His children in His love making "us" "as He is" "in this world."

To be as Jesus is > this is saved and therefore safe from falling away, like Jesus is safe and sharing His character's stability with us.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

10 hours ago, JimmyB said:

What do you have against seminaries and bible schools?  After all, they do teach God's word.

No, actually the majority of them teach false doctrine!

This is where all the pastors that teach false doctrine are getting it from!

Seminaries and bible schools are ground zero for the great falling away as satan has infiltrated these institutions of "higher learning" long ago to sneak in all kinds of false doctrine.

Actually, this got started long ago and is with us today:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Peter 2:1
There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Best not to get bogged down in divisive doctrinal disputes

 

Jesus said He came to bring division... between those that walk with the Lord and those that do not.  you know, the tares and the wheat.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

What God says come first before getting along with others that do not accept all that the Lord teaches in His Word.

There are many among us that are tares and I'm not going to be getting along just to be getting along if it causes me to have to acknowledge things that opposes God's Word.

Our relationship with the Lord always comes first before people.

In fact, people wanting to be accepted and wanting to be liked and be popular is one of the ways the devil spreads false doctrine.

I've talked to people that belong to churches that teach falsely and they know it and say they will keep supporting that church's false doctrine because that's where their friends go and they don't want to not be a part of the social club.

In most churches, they tell you what you will believe and if you refuse to agree with them they will encourage you to attend someplace else.

So, they are loving people more than they are the Lord!  That does not end well.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

1 hour ago, com7fy8 said:

I mean, if the real Jesus saves a person, He makes the person safe from sinning and leaving Him.

That's not true!  There's all kinds of warnings in the NT written to Christians putting the responsibility to abide in Christ on them not on the Lord.  God doesn't force anybody to walk with Him.

The Lord is not making robots out of us where we have no free will and what you are talking about came from John Calvin and is not biblical.

This make it where if some falls away then it was God's fault for not "keeping them"

 

[Michael37]

16 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Jesus said He came to bring division... between those that walk with the Lord and those that do not.  you know, the tares and the wheat.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

What God says come first before getting along with others that do not accept all that the Lord teaches in His Word.

There are many among us that are tares and I'm not going to be getting along just to be getting along if it causes me to have to acknowledge things that opposes God's Word.

Our relationship with the Lord always comes first before people.

In fact, people wanting to be accepted and wanting to be liked and be popular is one of the ways the devil spreads false doctrine.

I've talked to people that belong to churches that teach falsely and they know it and say they will keep supporting that church's false doctrine because that's where their friends go and they don't want to not be a part of the social club.

In most churches, they tell you what you will believe and if you refuse to agree with them they will encourage you to attend someplace else.

So, they are loving people more than they are the Lord!  That does not end well.

Godly guidance is good:

(Rom 14:1)  Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
(1Ti 1:4)  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
(1Ti 6:4)  he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
(2Ti 2:23)  But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(Tit 3:9)  But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

"Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit
he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:5-6

And that which is born is a son or daughter,
a child of God, born of His Spirit.
But what does that really mean?

"If you live after the flesh you shall die.
But if you through the Spirit do
put to death the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God."

Romans 8:13-14

Therefore being born again means following the Holy Spirit.
One receives the Spirit for free by grace,
upon believing that Christ died and rose again.
His death and resurrection is where and how access to the Spirit comes from.

"Be not deceived, God is not mocked,
for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
He that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption,
he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Galatians 6:7-8

 

"And why call ye me Lord Lord, and do not the things that I say?"

Luke 6:46-49

"He that has my commands and keep them,
he it is that loves me" John 14:21-24

"was Paul crucified for you?
or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
1 Corinthians 1:13

"If any one does not love the Lord Jesus Christ,
let that person be Anathema, Oh Lord Come!"
1 Corinthians 16:22

 

"In whom ye also trusted,
after that you heard the word of truth,
the good news of your salvation:
in Whom also after that you believed,
ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"
Ephesians 1:13
 

"God has made that same Jesus, whom ye crucified,
both Lord and Christ"

Then Peter said to them; Repent and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ,
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Acts 2:36-38
 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith:
and that not of your selves, the Holy Spirit is the gift of God,
not of works, lest any man should boast.
Because we are Gods creation
created in Christ Jesus for Good works,
which God has prepared before hand
that we should walk in them.

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you
walk worthy of the calling wherewith you have been called....
Because this you know, that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person, nor greedy man, who is an idolator,
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with empty words:
for because of these things comes the wrath of God
upon the children of disobedience,
Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
Ephesians 2:8-10, 4:1, 5:5-7

 

 

"And they that belong to Christ, have crucified the flesh,
with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24

Crucifixion is a process,
it happens differently for every believer,
and we sometimes struggle, but the outcome for those who sincerely believe is victory over personal sin.
 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Desopixi Seilynam