70 Weeks of Daniel

Shilohsfoal · September 3, 2023

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I take it you don't see Daniel 8 and Daniel 11:1-35 as historically pointing to the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes IV?

Regarding the AoD, in another post you mentioned that the daily sacrifice is abolished at the beginning of the 1,290 days and the abomination of desolation is placed at the end of the 1,290 days. Daniel 11:31 seems to place both of these events at the same time, you hold that Daniel 11:31 is actually split across the 1,290 days from Daniel 12:11?

Given Yeshua pointing to the abomination of desolation as the unparalleled time of trouble, would you hold that Daniel 11:31 event is separate from Daniel 12:1?

Regarding Daniel 12:2, given the first resurrection states that the last resurrection is the only time the dead who are not faithful are resurrected to the second death. Revelation 20:4-5 This seems to point to Daniel 12:1-2 as not a single point in time but separated by the 1,000 year reign of Christ, since we know that is when the great white throne judgment is after the last resurrection. Would you see that differently?

Daniel 11:31 says the armed forces accomplish two things.They will abolish the daily sacrifice.Then they will place the abomination of desolation.

I hold these two events to be separated by 1290 days .No one is fleeing in Daniel 11:31 ,nor do they flee in Daniel 11:32 while the king of the north is flattering the unbelieving Jews.

³¹“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. ³²With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Daniel 11:44 is when the abomination that causes desolation is placed in Jerusalem as well as many other cities in the middle east.It is what causes the great tribulation seen in Daniel 12:1.

The resurrection in Daniel 12:2 is the resurection of those in the kingdom of heaven.The promised land.Both those who have done good and those who have done bad.It was this cause,Joseph did not want his corpse to remain in exile.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

I don't believe everyone who is resurected on that day have done good .I can name a couple I believe have gone terribly wrong.

Zech 14 shows the occupants of judea fleeing on the day of the Lord which corresponds to the time of great tribulation spoken of in Daniel 12:1 and mathew 24:21

zech 14

⁵And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It is at this time that tem in judea flee in haste.They are terrified at what they are seeing.This time of distress Luke speaks of is what they are terrified of.

Luke 21

²⁵And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

²⁶Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The word tribulation means distress .The things they are seeing in the heavens when the abomination of desolation is used by the armed forces is what has terrified these people.Im sure you can figure out what the armed forces will use when they want to destroy and innihilate many.It will be seen in the heavens.

Daniel 11:44

But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

Revelation Man · September 3, 2023

On 8/30/2023 at 9:16 AM, Revelation Man said:

(The Anti-Christ through the Church WITHHOLDS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. Remember Jesus said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church).

TYPO, it should have read:

(The Holy Spirit working through the Church WITHHOLDS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. Remember Jesus said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church).

----------------

Would mot let me edit for some reason.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Revelation Man

Triton57 · September 4, 2023

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel 11:31 says the armed forces accomplish two things.They will abolish the daily sacrifice.Then they will place the abomination of desolation.

I hold these two events to be separated by 1290 days .No one is fleeing in Daniel 11:31 ,nor do they flee in Daniel 11:32 while the king of the north is flattering the unbelieving Jews.

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

I agree in Daniel 11:31-32 nobody is fleeing, but I also believe this is historical and speaks to Antiochus Epiphanes IV. We know that this triggered the Maccabean revolt where Israel was strong and did exploits, eventually defeating those who were preventing them from fulfilling their covenant with God. They then started the daily sacrifice 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices later on the time that is celebrated today as Chanukah.

Quote

Daniel 11:44 is when the abomination that causes desolation is placed in Jerusalem as well as many other cities in the middle east.It is what causes the great tribulation seen in Daniel 12:1.

The resurrection in Daniel 12:2 is the resurection of those in the kingdom of heaven.The promised land.Both those who have done good and those who have done bad.It was this cause,Joseph did not want his corpse to remain in exile.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

I don't believe everyone who is resurected on that day have done good .I can name a couple I believe have gone terribly wrong.

I would agree that Daniel 12:1 speaks of that time since Yeshua and Jeremiah both point to that unparalleled time as being just after the abomination of desolation. If the daily sacrifice is stopped and the abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 11:31, why does it happen again in Daniel 11:44 and into Daniel 12:1? Or are you assuming the time in Daniel 11:31 is just the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination of desolation is separate and in the future verses for some reason?

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Zech 14 shows the occupants of judea fleeing on the day of the Lord which corresponds to the time of great tribulation spoken of in Daniel 12:1 and mathew 24:21

zech 14

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

I agree this is yet future as there has not been a time where Christ has stood on the Mount of Olives and it split in two. I agree this will likely be the way that Israel flees as depicted in Revelation 12:14-16. In another post you call this time from the beginning of the 1,290 days tribulation and later 1,290 days later great tribulation. Are these different tribulations or the greatest part is at the end because of atomic bombs?

Quote

It is at this time that tem in judea flee in haste.They are terrified at what they are seeing.This time of distress Luke speaks of is what they are terrified of.

Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The word tribulation means distress .The things they are seeing in the heavens when the abomination of desolation is used by the armed forces is what has terrified these people.Im sure you can figure out what the armed forces will use when they want to destroy and innihilate many.It will be seen in the heavens.

Daniel 11:44

But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

Do you believe this time period will be the end of man's rule on the earth? Do you believe the bride of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air? What happens after the atomic bombs according to scripture?

Shilohsfoal · September 4, 2023

1 hour ago, Triton57 said:

I agree in Daniel 11:31-32 nobody is fleeing, but I also believe this is historical and speaks to Antiochus Epiphanes IV. We know that this triggered the Maccabean revolt where Israel was strong and did exploits, eventually defeating those who were preventing them from fulfilling their covenant with God. They then started the daily sacrifice 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices later on the time that is celebrated today as Chanukah.

I would agree that Daniel 12:1 speaks of that time since Yeshua and Jeremiah both point to that unparalleled time as being just after the abomination of desolation. If the daily sacrifice is stopped and the abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 11:31, why does it happen again in Daniel 11:44 and into Daniel 12:1? Or are you assuming the time in Daniel 11:31 is just the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination of desolation is separate and in the future verses for some reason?

I agree this is yet future as there has not been a time where Christ has stood on the Mount of Olives and it split in two. I agree this will likely be the way that Israel flees as depicted in Revelation 12:14-16. In another post you call this time from the beginning of the 1,290 days tribulation and later 1,290 days later great tribulation. Are these different tribulations or the greatest part is at the end because of atomic bombs?

Do you believe this time period will be the end of man's rule on the earth? Do you believe the bride of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air? What happens after the atomic bombs according to scripture?

After the bombs the earth will recover .

Ezekiel 38:8

After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

It will take Egypt a bit longer to recover.From.what I've read ,no foot of man or beast will set foot in Egypt for 40 years.The US is going to pulverize Egypt.

Daniel 11:42

He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape.

Ezekiel 29:11-14

The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.

I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.

Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.

I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations.

If you've ever wondered why Egypt doesn't accompany Gog in his quest to conquer Christs kingdom in Ezekiel 38-39,there you have your answer.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

Diaste · September 4, 2023

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

Dispensation gets all kinds of attachments I neither know of or really care to. What I do see in scripture are many places where God is dealing with Israel. Then Israel rejects the Messiah and are blinded and destroyed and disbursed into the nations while the Gospel goes to the Gentiles. Natural Israel remains blinded throughout that time until the fulness of the Gentiles at which point God's focus is on the remnant of Israel whose names are written in the book. Call it dispensation or not, but clearly the concept is there or Israel wouldn't be blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles was completed. And when I say natural Israel, it's purely a necessity to refer to a corporate body of people within space-time. Obviously there have been natural branches who have come to accept Messiah while Israel as a whole remained blinded. And there will be natural branches broken off in unbelief whose names are not written in the book. Spiritual Israel are all Jews and Gentiles outside of space-time who have and will in the future accept Yeshua, we just don't know, being stuck in space-time ourselves, what that body will be, just that it will be.

Excellent.

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

Regarding Zechariah 14, I'm unsure on timing or relation, but perhaps Yeshua standing on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14 is what is meant in Revelation.

Revelation 12:14-17

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure that is the case since this has a time frame of 3.5 years, some say. I see 'times, time, and half a time' as a season, which may well be 3.5 years. In this case it could not be longer than that, shorter, but not longer.

Here it's not the same as Zech 14:3-5 since in Rev 12 above the dragon is off to make war against the ones who keep God's commands and the Testimony of Jesus Christ. In Zech 14 Jesus has come back to put an end to the beast and the dragon.

It would make sense that if Jesus is back and saving the remnant in Jerusalem then the 1st resurrection has also happened at this point in Zech 14:3-5.

The dragon's war would be over and The Lamb's wrath is poured out.

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

I can respect the hesitation in trying to put things together that aren't explicitly stated. Fortunately a lot of elements of Bible prophecy are not requirements for salvation, but rather clues and insights into God's plans for our future. There's so much we'll all learn as it's coming to pass.

I say this quite a bit. The only way we will know when prophecy is fulfilled is when we witness it come to pass.

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

Revelation 6:17 is technically the people of earth's calling this out as the day of God's wrath, but I do believe they are right. From the sixth seal to the seventh seal there's just 1/2 hour of silence in heaven and scripture does say the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night and sudden destruction like the days of Noah and Lot. If the people of earth are recognizing God's wrath then it should be coming in short order to fulfill the statements that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly.

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." 1 Thess 5

The day does not come upon us like a thief, only those in unbelief.

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

the same word is used in both verses for is come, but I don't believe this means the wrath comes twice. I think they're just declarative statements that God's wrath is here and happening. It occurs over the last 3 1/2 years approximately so it's not like one day and it's all over.

Indeed. It's an aorist 'tense', as it were. Whatever it is just exists. A Greek language scholar said the aorist verb is like flying over a parade and taking a picture. The picture is the aorist. The parade exists but there is no time element. No start, no end, no duration, it just IS.

This is the same with Rev 11:18

18The nations were enraged,c

and Your wrath has come.

This is also the aorist 'tense'. As you agreed wrath does NOT come twice. There is no duration evident. If duration is applied to Rev 6:17 then it must also be applied to Rev 11:18. That can't be the case so then if wrath begins at the 6th seal, wrath also begins at the 7th trump.

Therefore, seals and trumps have some sort of ordered successive/concurrent relationship.

On 9/3/2023 at 1:21 AM, Triton57 said:

Yes, there's no way to determine how long it takes for the bowls to pour out, but like birthpangs it seems like the trumpets play out over some time and the fifth trumpet for at least a few months since the sting of the demon locusts last for 5 months. Then the bowls are all poured out in one chapter, one after the other like the intensity is kicked up a notch as the delivery of the completion of God's wrath is commencing.

To be clear, I don't think the seals are plagues. I do think some selective plagues will be part of God's wrath in the future, such as the first and fifth bowls perhaps.

I would agree filled up means it's reached completion with the final phase and once that is done, the wrath of God is finished, but it had a start previous.

Revelation Man · September 4, 2023

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I suppose my conflation is that the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him is the day of Christ that they are afraid they were in, because if they were in the day of the Lord, they knew they would have missed the gathering to the Lord. I would add that this isn't the only passage I define this timing of "the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him" as tied to the day of the Lord.

Its just not the case, the coming of the Lord to gather is Pre Trib, that is why 1 Thess. 1;10 says we will be delivered from the wrath of God. The Day of the Lord simply means this: The Day God starts taking back the title deed to the earth that Satan tricked Adam out of, God gave Adam dominion over the whole earth, we humans allowed Satan to gain a hold of that dominion. So, the Pre Trib rapture happens because the Time of the Gentiles (Service unto God) comes to an end when the 70th week starts, Israel penance is back at hand, the first 69 weeks has been paid, Israel must and will repent during the 70th week but the Church will not be on this earth. Thus the Remnant in Rev. 12:17 is the Remnant Church, not a Remnant Jewish peoples.

You and others seem to conflate the "2nd coming" which is a misnomer, Jesus has come to earth many, many times, see John chapter 20, he returned to earth with the gift of the holy spirit after going to heaven to offer the Sacrifice, how do we inow this? By reading, Jesus told Mary, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" so Mary merely touching Jesus would have defiled the "Sacrifice" because God is so holy He can not come into the presence of sin. But 8 days later when Jesus visits them in the upper room he asked Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds !! Meaning he went to Heaven, offered the Sacrifice, and returned, so the "2nd Coming" is just not a proper name, it means the 2nd Advent, which means he came as a Suffering Servant to die for our sins and will Return as a Conquering King to rule. The whole, WELL, Jesus can't come but twice is just unbiblical fodder, we see Jesus was the Rock Israel followed in the Desert, Jesus was I Am that I Am the burning bush, Jesus was the Man in Linen in Daniel 12 et al.

The DOTL is God's Wrath, the Rapture of the Church happens 3.5 years before this, the "2nd Coming" happens 3.5 years after this.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Matthew 24:15-31 and Mark 13:14-27 both give the same sequence of events as laid out by Paul to the church of Thessalonica. I agree that they were afraid the day of the Lord was at hand because that is tied to the catching away of the bride of Christ. In both passages the man of sin is revealed followed by unparalleled tribulation and then the time is cut short and the remnant saved. Then in the time after that unparalleled tribulation, we see the signs of the sixth seal described, the son of man coming in great power and glory and the angels gathering His elect.

Combined with the same description of the sun, moon, and star event in Revelation 6:12-17 heralding the day of the Lord, we see the next chapter that the 144,000 are sealed and the multitude who was just gathered. The gathering was after Christ's coming in glory, which was after the sixth seal, which was after the unparalleled tribulation, which was after the revealing of the man of sin, which was after the abomination of desolation.

They were afraid because of a lie someone told them, that Paul said they were in the DOTL, then Paul says this can not happen, both the Church must depart [its standing as being on this earth] and the Anti-Christ must come onto the scene, after all he makes the 7 year deal that kicks off the rapture and the 70th week, and since the DOTL comes in the middle of that week it doesn't take a scholar to understand the DOTL can not happen unto those other two things come to pass first. Also, Paul understood Matt. 24 teachings and had obviously been updated by Jesus on all that when Jesus took him up to heaven in the "Spirit". Matt. 24 teaches the disciples that they would not be on earth for the "2nd coming" because the Gospel had to be preached unto the whole world (China, India & Russia were known entities, Russia was the Scythians) before "The End" or 70th week could come. That is why Paul was chiding them for buying into this lie, he was like so you are NOW in Gid's Wrath hey? Well that can not happen until the Church Departs AND the Man of Sin (Anti-Christ) is allowed to come forth. Its that simple really, anything else is just us overthinking it.

No time is cut short as those who refer to this think, lets see God gives us Prophesies that state the 70th week will be 7 years and that the time of trouble will be 1260 days, Gi foreknows all and fore plans all, He never has to change His designed plans. What Jesus is saying in Matt. 24 is that Hey, these plans we spoke of in Daniel 12, they are only going to last for a Time, Times and 1/2 time because we LONG AGO understood id we allowed this Anti=Christ tyrant to rule for longer than 1260 days no life on earth would be let, so we decided long ago to return and end his rule after 1260 days. So, what does Jesus showing up and killing this Man/Beast do? It ends his life and SHORTENS the tribulations on earth. Jesus was never saying, I am going to shorten my pre planed 1260 day tribulation period. That is just men not understanding how prophesy works tbh.

The 6th Seal happens before the Troubles start in Rev. 8 with the Asteroid. Question, does Joel 2:31s prophecy mean Daniel lived during the Rev. 8 asteroid? Of course not, you can foretell something without it being that same period of time. Jesus, just before God's Wrath falls does the same thing in Heaven, he opens a "figurative scroll" that has 7 binding wax seal on it, not one Judgment Trump can sound until all 7 are off and the decree can be read aloud. The 6th seal is Jesus telling the Pre Trib Raptured Church in heaven what God's wrath will soon bring to earth, as soon as the last seal comes off the scroll of Judgment Trumps. Just like Joel 2:31 foretold it. The 6th Seal will be the DOTL when it hits, an it will cover a 42 month period of time which is the same amount of time given unto the A.C. to rule on earth. The first 5 seals simply describe the Beasts 42 months of rule, in each case its a 42 month rule. 1.) The Beast goes forth conquering for 42 months. 2.) He takes away peace brings wars for 42 months 3.)His wars brings famines for 42 months. 4.) His rule brings Sickness, Death and Hades (Grave) for 42 months and finally 5.) In Seal #5 he kills those Martyrs who come to Christ for 42 months also. The 7th Seal begins all of this. NOTICE: The Trumps and Vials are brought forth by Angels, the Seals have the Four Beasts simply telling John to "Come and See", its a vision of the future. The Trumps & Vials have to be SOUNDED & POURED OUT. The silence is simple, the Heavens are very sad that they are going to have to kill billions of human beings, it saddened God when He had to flood the earth, so there is no joy in heaven, its a somber mood, but justice has to be put forth. In Rev. 10 when John eats the book its both bitter and sweet, likewise he loves being able to live forever with God, that is sweet, but he understands billions of humans will also be killed ad to him that is very, very bitter.

The 144,000 just like "The Woman" in Rev. 12 is a code see Gen. 37:9 it solves the Woman code. The 144,000 is a simple number code. The number 12 = fulness and 10 = Completeness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 simply means ALL Israel who repents. If God had said He was going to judge Rome or this whole world the Church would have been seen as traitors, so they used Babylon, a dead city, which made Romans laugh I imagine. Also, if God had used Israel saying they were going to rule with God the Romans also would have seen that as treason, so God, who wrote Revelation Himself, instead placed codes for Israel, as in the 144,000 or the Woman. So, in Rev. 7 we actually see he 1/3 Jews (Zech. 13:89) who repent fleeing Judea (God say seal them, means they come to Christ) and being protected by God (Hurt not the Sea, Trees nor Earth until thy are sealed and thus protected) because the Rev. 8 Trumps do what? Hurt the Earth, Sea and the Trees. So, this is Israel fleeing after thy see the 1290 AoD which I have showed comes 30 days before the 1260. So, now Rev. 6 being Prophetic in nature makes sense, just afterwards the Jews Flee Judea just before God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 via the Asteroid Impact. Zech. 13:8-9 and 14:1 shows the exact same thing we see Israel repent then one vs. later the DOTL arrives. Those multitude are the Pre Trib Raptured Church who went through the Church Age Tribulation. In John 16:33 Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation on this earth. Smyrna was told in Rev. 2:10 tribulation for 10 days (remember 10 = completion) or the complete church age. Those came out of "GREAT TRIBULATION" not the Greatest Ever Tribulation. Millions of our brothers were killed during the Church Age period. Besides, the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 make it impossible for anyone to get raptured to heaven during the 70th week. The 5th Seal is prophetic in nature, meaning Jesus s telling us what the Martyrs will be thinking in their hearts after they die, BEFOREE THEY DIE (Smile). We know thus because Jesus tells these Martyrs that they MUST WAIT to get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner, meaning after the Beasts 42 month rule of terror on earth. Likewise Rev. 20:4 shows that those Martyrs only get raised and judged AFTER Jesus' 2nd coming. So, those multitude seen in Rev. 7 can not be from the 70th week, they are the Church Age Saint (Pre Trib Rapture)

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

So if apostasia is departure and it must come before the day of Christ, can that be squared with the sequence of events that Yeshua stated would lead to His return and what Paul defined as the reason for the letter, "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him?" I don't think it's a mistake Paul said it this way, because His coming and our gathering to Him occur at the same time, after the signs of the sun moon star at the sixth seal, all of which is after the revealing of the man of sin as that sign is after the tribulation of those days. Logically then apostasia cannot mean departure in the context of the bride of Christ being caught up because Yeshua, Paul, and John all lay it out as happening after the revealing and it being tied to the day of the Lord.

TBH, I think prophecy in general confuses people, especially if their truths have been engrained over time, as coming from other men instead of direct from God. The 2nd coming and the Rapture are not the same event. Both the Rapture and A.C. must happen before Gods wrath falls.

The Rapture can be seen in Rev. 14:14 in a FLASHBACK. The Wheat (Israel) are gathered at the very end the Wicked Grapes killed at the very end but Jesus from upon a cloud harvests the church 7 years before. People need to get past this 2nd coming mis application of words. Its the 2nd Advent, Jesus is not limited unto two comings. Jesus will rapture the Church Pre Trib, the A.C. makes his 7 Year Agreement about then same time THEN WHST COMES LATER? The Middle of the week Wrath. Its east math my friend. Don't ever get an idea and run with it to the point it blocks you from seeing the bigger picture. I am simply amazed at the amount of people who can not see the Pre Trib Rapture. I can not trust other thins hey tell me until I have tried them at every angle because the Pre Trib is so obvious that I have to take a step back and wonder WHY?

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Are there any scriptures that would indicate Israel joining the European Union causes the start of the 70th week or tie it to any kind of land giveaway? Were the first 69 weeks related to giving away the land?

The first 69 weeks had a Beast over Israel, Babylon's 70 years and Israel not repenting TIMED the judgment by 7 as the Law requires. So, and angel told Daniel it was now a judgment of 70 times 7 or 490 years, under each year Israel had a Beast over them in order to bring them unto repentance. When God rent the temple everything stopped, God no longer saw Israel as a nation. The 70 weeks stopped. It wont start again unto Israel signs the agreement (Covenant) with Israel. God will kick off that 70th week Judgment when Israel essentially gives aways control of her land to the E.U. by joining the E.U. The 70 weeks are all designed by God to bring Israel unto repentance. Israel did many thins to cause this, serving false gods, not killing every woman and child when they conquered Canaan Land, thus their gods were soon served by Israel.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

It would seem the first 69 weeks are related to restoring Israel to the land. We've seen over the past century how Israel has come into the land and through several wars taken it, but they still don't have all of Jerusalem. I would posit as opposed to giving away of the land, that the 70th week would start as soon as Israel controls both Jerusalem and the temple. That would seem to be more consistent with the historical application of the 70 weeks, but I could be wrong.

Just the opposite, its about Israel sinning against God and thus why Israel did not take the Gospel unto the whole world. They succeeded in birthing the messiah but failed at understanding how to worship God in faith. The land overall is not the point, its disobedience, it is God's land, not theirs to give away. Thus they will get the full land (Euphrates to Egypt) during the 1000 year reign.

As per scriptures, we know via Dan. 8:9 the Anti-Christ has to be born in Greece, and because of Dan. 7:7-8 we know he must come out of the head of the Fourth Beast (E.U.) and that he must have Assyrian (Iraqi, Turkish or Syrian blood) blood thus he is a Migrant from the past (his family migrated in the past) to Greece and thus by being born in Greece this means he is eligible to become the E.U. President. All three must be fulfilled.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

What causes you to add 1,260 days to the signs of the sixth seal?

Those are not the 6th Seal, those are the Trumpet Judgments that the 6th Seal FORETOLD. God's Wrath falls in the exact middle of the week, He will only allow the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering at that time Understanding the Seals is key, both the first 5 Seals and the 6th Seal cover the same time frame, the first 5 are foretelling the Anti-Christs 42 month reign, the 6th seal is God's soon to come wrath. The 7 Seal releases it all over in Rev. 8 where the Asteroid hits. The Anti-Christ in Daniel 12:7 is foretold to have a 1260 day reign, it all ties together once you understand that Anti-Christs reign and God's Wrath are prophetic utterances covering the exact same time period, Trumps 1-7 with the 7th Trump delivering the 7 Vials which is the 3rd Woe.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Yes, there are 50% of the church who will be shut out of the marriage of the Lamb (Matthew 25:1-13) and cast into great tribulation (Revelation 2:22) because they did not repent of their idolatry and had no relationship with Christ.

Mostly correct, except the 50 percent simply doesn't have the "Oil" in them, meaning the Holy Spirit in their lives God will not stay where Willful sin lingers. So, you get the thrust of it. Ever think about how Matt. 24:36-51 has the exact same ratio? One is TAKEN and one is LEFT. I think Jesus told the Disciples about the Rapture in his own way, but only gave the understanding to Paul in full, thus when they wrote it they naturally though it had to be at the very end, when in reality it should have been inserted after vs. 14. How do you get this but not understand the Pre Trib Rapture brother?

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

They counted themselves as the church, but like Israel they spoke of God but their hearts were far from God. In addition there will be those who refuse the mark at pain of death. It is my belief that only those who have turned to Christ would have any reason not to take the mark and worship the beast. Atheists will be confronted with a man with supernatural power and there is no meaning in life outside of experiencing it before it's over. For other religions I would imagine that there will be a limit to what they're willing to hold onto at pain of death and will have to choose to keep their religion and die or convert to worship the beast. Christians will have the same issue, which is what I believe is meant by the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia is promised to be kept from. Revelation 3:10

The Church will not be here, an Hour in Revelation always means 1260 days. In Rev. 18:8-10 Babylon is judged in ONE DAY and in ONE HOUR, both means 1260 days, the "Day" of the Lord is 1260 days and the Hour is shown i Rev. 17:12 to mean 1260 days, because the 10 kings are said to rule with the Beasts for exactly "One Hour" and we know the Beast rules for 42 months or 1260 days.

Most of these Atheists who do not believe in God are not "Worshiping the Dragon and the Beast per se, its just the way God sees men. All men, right now who do not serve God is seen as serving Satan, see my point? Stealing, Lying, Greed, Anger, Sexual Perverts etc. etc. are all of Satan so they LOVE Satan over God so they "Worship the Dragon". But the truth is they do not believe in Satan, as we know.

I think thus "Mark" is put forth to simply do what the Leftie Libs are trying to do now, stop all buying and selling to the point where they can bring "Social Justice" to the world via leverage, in other words if you do not buy into their confirmatory ideals they will make it impossible for you to buy and sell, so you better buy into Abortion, Homosexuality, et al or we will destroy you. These Libs Atheists will be all in on that, LOL.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

In addition, Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years from the beast. This week is surrounding them coming to repentance and calling on the name of the Lord, accepting the Messiah they were blinded to until the fulness of the Gentiles. 144,000 of them will be sealed and protected from the fifth trumpet and all of natural Israel protected during that time will be refined to the end of the week when they will emerge from protection into the millennial kingdom where they will be ruled by their Messiah as prophesied.

We have to think here, how can the 7000 number, the 144,000 number and the 1/3 ratio all be true? Well, 7000 and 144,000 can be CODES and the 1/3 ratio true, thus 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = Divine Completeness x Completeness and 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = Fulness x Completeness and thus both simply means ALL Israel who repents, and Zech. 13:8-9 says that is 1/3 or 3.5-5 million Jews. Yes, God protects The Woman & the 144,000 in the Wilderness for 1260 days. Why does God protect Israel but not the "Remnant Church" ? Because the Church had 2000 years to get it right, the Gentiles who get saved during the Rapture are spread around the world, if you missed the wedding call you will be locked out and go through troubles. But Israel must needs to be protected because they will be who Jesus sets up the promised Kingdom Age with.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I agree 100%, I stopped listening to teachers and turned to the Spirit for guidance. God didn't say only the smart ones who can talk well will understand. God said the wise would understand. Intelligence doesn't define wisdom, trusting God's Word is wise and He has promised that He will tell His friends what He is doing. Having an Acts 17:11 mentality is critical when studying not just prophecy, but all things God has told us.

Yes, we must always ask God what the scriptures mean else we can get off track.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I agree the seals are not God's wrath. Would you say the day of the Lord begins the wrath of God then?

Yes indeed, the Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8 begins it all, that is why in Rev. 7 God says HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) on the Trees, Seas and Earth until we get the "144,000" sealed (Saved and Safe). Thus just before the 1260 (Asteroid) God makes sure the Two-witnesses bring Israel unto repentance at the 1335, therefore they are ready to flee at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260. That is also why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Where would you place Revelation 7? Would you consider this innumerable multitude in heaven to be the raptured faithful bride from history to the point of the rapture?

Boom, I like how when you think it through you can see it. The hang up I had for 30 years was the same as everyone else, it says Great Tribulation, the Lord was like Ron, Great tribulation doesn't mean Greatest Ever Tribulations. Plus the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves that no one from the 70th week can be raptured. That only happens after Jesus returns, he Judges the Martyrs in Rev. 20:4 and at the 5th seal they are told they must wait on the Beasts 42 month reign to end before they get vengeance.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Revelation 19:7-10 shows the marriage of the Lamb and her clothed in the same fine linen clean and white that 11-16 shows her in following Christ at His return. I don't see any mention of a resurrection at that time, only in Revelation 20:4-6 after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the dragon bound for 1,000 years is there a specific mention.

True, because the Rev. 2o:4 resurrection is after the 70th week, meanwhile the Church was Raptured pre 70th week, don't get hung up on things like "First Resurrection" and "2nd Resurrection" that simply refers unto the types that are going to be resurrected, the Righteous are raised First the Unrighteous after Jesus' 1000 year reign. Also, Rev. 2 and 3 ends the Church Age, John in Rev. 4:1 represents the Rapture, but why? Because at that very time John will be Raptured, as Jesus sounds the Trump (Last Trump) which ends the Harvest.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

To me this shows, as written without chapter breaks, a clear sequence of events from the marriage of the Lamb in heaven, to returning with Christ from heaven at Armageddon, to the beast and false prohet being thrown into the lake of fire, dragon bound for 1,000 years and then the 3rd harvest of the first resurrection at the beginning of the 1,000 years after Christ has returned to reign with Him 1,000 years.

Of course, in much of Revelation you can't go like that because its nit in Chronological Order, but in Rev. 19, 20, 21 its in order. So, the bride returns and then the Martyrs are raised, meaning those Multitude in Rev. 7 can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Church.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Well I hope I was able to sufficiently demonstrate my logic reading the Word myself and putting together the connection points outside of any other teachers' definitions. To that point, I don't think that accusation can be thrown about in this day and age as we all, whether knowing it or not, are reading the same Word and standing on the backs of thousands of years of Christians trying to understand God's Word and what it means regarding the future.

Its not meant, of course, to say don't ever listen to men, its meant instill a work integrity which says, if I am only 99 percent sure this is correct I still need to TEST THE Spirit or test the theory to see if it is of God or not. We can get off tracked by one single verse tat takes us WAY OFF COURSE. Example, I heard 30 plus years ago the "theory" that the Seals started being opened 2000 years ago. They all get to this place via one passage in Rev. 5:2-4 where they overthink it all and do nit use logic.

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Here is their "THEORY" they say Jesus had not been slain yet so that is why is was not yet worthy, so, the Seals bring all this to fruition, Jesus goes forth Conquering after his death, then the Anti-Christ makes WARS for the last 2000 years which brought MANY FAMINES in the last 2000 years where Satan has been destroying men with sickness and death for 2000 years and lastly Satan has been killing the Saints for 2000 years. (SMILE) You know what I call this error? The NOWHERE MAN. They see that NO MAN was worthy and say this means Jesus had not been slain, but later when John sees the Slain Lamb he had been slain. But as I show them, LOOK HARDER, if it really meant that then Jesus has to be the NOWHERE MAN, because it says no man was found on earth, or IN HEAVEN nor under the earth was found worthy to open the book. They take a book of prose which is meant to show us WHY Jesus was Worthy, he was slain like a lamb, and turn it into this whole wonderous thriller of a nugget, which it is not. Thus they see all the Seals as being already opened except the 6th seal. So, my point is, always e wary and ask the Lord for direction on everything. That goes for everyone, including myself.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I would point out that it is "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Paul ties these two events together, which is also seen in the Olivet Discourse account as well.

Again, Matt. 24:29-31 is the 2nd Advent/2nd Coming, not the Pre Trib Rapture. It is two different events.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I understand the pre-trib perspective and used to hold to it when I just accepted the clear intelligence and depth of scriptural understanding that Chuck Missler had. However, it was when I stopped "repeating someone else's words without thinking it through" and started seeking in prayer an understanding according to God's Word and not my own desires that I started to come to conclusions on my own.

Take it from a guy who knows prophecy inside and out, you have missed it on this one. They take verses and weave them together, but the facts are I can destroy any of they verses so they mostly run from my points. You just proved by using Rev. 19 that the Rapture has to be Pre Trib. So, they do not have on White Garments to start with right? So it is before the Marry Jesus, but in Rev. 4:4 we see they have on White Robes already, before the "Seals are even opened" Reread Rev. 4:4 after the Rev. 4:1 Rapture. It tells us the 24 Elders (Church which makes us Kings & Priests because of the 1 Chronicles 24, twenty four Orders of the Priesthood). So, the 24 Elders is the Church, in heaven, just after the pre trib rapture. We know this by reading the Rev. 2 & 3 passages. In Rev. 2:10 those who OVERCOME are promised a CROWN of Gold and we see the 24 Elders have on CROWNS !! In Rev. 3:5 the OVERCOMERS were promised to have on White Robes and we see the Rev. 4:4 Elders have on White Raiment. Finally in Rev. 3:21 the OVERCOMERS were promised to sit at God's THRONE and the 24 Elders are sitting at God's throne. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age, Rev. 4:1 ends the Church Age and we see the Church in Heaven, we are Kings and Priests thus we are called the 24 Elders. In Rev. 5:9-10 we are then described as having been WASHED in the blood, Angels do nit need forgiveness. This is the PRE TRIB RAPTURED Church, in heaven BEFORE any Seals have ever been opened. That is why you git it right via Rev. 19 even if you did not quite see it. By the way, as you read it, you remembered their arguments. See how it can be influential?

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

You know I actually thought at first I was the first one to see a pre-wrath rapture? Ha, the arrogance! I was in my pre-trib echo chamber for some time. I've battled with pride many a time in my walk with God to understand His Word. All that I know is that I don't know everything. I look for opportunities to sharpen iron with different perspectives from scripture because I've learned a lot hearing other perspectives and challenging my own with them as I search the scriptures to see if they're true. Sometimes I find they are and I correct my understanding while other times I'm unable to find scripture stating that or the whole council of scripture points to a different interpretation of that one part to make it fit with the whole.

The Pre Trib is the easy stuff for me, its all about TIMING, or MATH. You can not get it wrong if you understand the TIMING TELLS. That is why getting the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation down pat is so important. The same with the 1335, 1290 and 1290 being in that order, all that man days away from the 2n d coming ending all of these wonders.

That 1335 and 1290 understanding is about a 1000 times harder to see than the Pre Trib Rapture. The 8th King literally no one understand it can only be Apollyon. Literally no one understands the Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon and that they signature tell is God's use of CROWNS, in Rev. 12 Satan has 7 CROWNS on the 7 Heads because as Luke 4 says ALL Kingdoms on this earth are his, in Rev. 13 6he Anti-Christ has 10 CROWNS because he is over COMPLETE Europe Reunited. In Rev. 17 the Scarlet Beast has NO CROWNS.

These are challenges, not the Pre Trib Rapture, Satan understands he needs to confuse the timings for a few specified reasons that will cost lives. I can go into it if needed.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I agree the catching away is before the DOTL, just before. And its tie with the coming of our Lord by Paul would point to the fear that the DOTL had come meaning they missed the rapture. We can really only use Paul's response in his letter to estimate exactly what they feared, but I'm on the same page with you there.

The coming of the Lord you cite below in 1 Thess. 4 is the Pre Trib Rapture.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I would note that the passage you referenced likewise associates the coming of the Lord with our gathering to Him. Assuming the rapture occurs sometime before the tribulation, whether one holds before the 70th week or just before the midst of the week such that the departure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the rapture, would you say that before the tribulation is when the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, resurrect the dead in Christ and then call all the bride to Him in the air, or would this be Christ coming before the timing described in the Olivet Discourse after the tribulation, or do you think that Christ comes before the tribulation and then before the wrath begins and then at the end of the antichrists reign at Armageddon? Are there any corroborating passages to indicate multiple arrivals of Christ both before and after the tribulation?

Before in 1 Thess. 4 and 2 Thess. 2 and elsewhere. The Matt. 24:29-31 portion is after the tribulation, Jesus returns with the Church to gather the elect who came to Christ during the 70th week, the Jews who he will set up a kingdom on earth wit, who still have human babies for 1000 yeas. You see, this is a SHOW TRIAL to condemn Satan, ever wonder why he is only locked up for 1000 years? God will show Satan's rule over mankind for 6000 years and the chaos, Greed, Hate, Murder, lies et al and juxtapose it against Jesus' 1000 year reign where Satan has no part of, and mankind will be totally different even still living under Sin Nature. This condemns Satan the liar to eternal damnation.

Look for the TIMING TELLS, like I showed in Rev. 4 with that coming BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. The biggest one is Rev. 2 and 3 is the Divine Church Age Completion which is called the "THE THINGS WHICH ARE" compared to Rev. 4:1 (The Rapture) which is called "The things which will be HEREAFTER" which means after the Church Age and mostly during the 70th week, however Rev. 20, 21 and 22 is on past the 70th week. These are on purpose timing tells. The reason Jesus dd not teach on the Rapture is he was sent unto Israel only. Now, some Jews will be Raptured, so when asked this in Matthew, he gives both answers, the Matt. 24:29-31 2nd Coming for the Jews AND the Pre Trib Rapture where he says (NOTICE) it will be like in the days of Noah, before the flood came to take them all away they were partying, marrying etc. Well, how can the Second Coming (THINK NOW) be like that? Gods Wrath has been hitting them for 3.5 years, they are in hiding, trying to dodge the Wrath of God not Marrying and Eating/Partying. Only a Pre Trib Rapture affords this type of thinking. Once the Rapture happens no one else is leaving, thus just like those outside of the Ark, when the rains started coming, they were pretty much doomed. That is why Jesus says one will be taken and one left, that is referencing the Church and the 5 of 10 brides who do not make the wedding call.

So, Jesus calls us up to him Pre Trib, matches Rev. 14:14 to a tee. Then Jesus returns with the Church, matches Rev. 19 to a tee.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

In my understanding there is no need to separate the coming of Christ from the DOTL. In fact there are several passages referring to the day of Christ and the day of the Lord Jesus that would indicate the day of Christ being the end of the race we are running. Christ comes with great glory after the signs of the sixth seal after the unparalleled tribulation in Judea and the wrath soon follows All the various passages line up with a single coming of Christ at the time of God's wrath to gather His bride from the earth before that wrath is poured out on the earth because we are not appointed to God's wrath, but salvation in Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:12-14

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Philippians 1:9-10

And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Philippians 2:14-16

Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

If you look at passages for the DOTL, they are depictions of wrath tied to the signs of the sixth seal, shaking the earth, destruction from the Almighty, etc. When you look at references to the day of Christ, they appear to be the end of the Christian struggle, a goal to which we should remain spotless and faithful to. I believe this is the point of the pre-wrath catching away perspective. As Paul and Yeshua state, the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him are the same event. That comes after the tribulation in Judea and before the wrath of God, but not much before because the coming of Christ is the day of the Lord and God's wrath. While the day of Christ is the same time, it is from the Christian perspective and regards the blessed hope, not the sudden destruction for those that dwell on the earth.

What confuses people here is not understanding what the "Full DOTL" means. It is ONE DAY, that starts the Wrath of God which lasts 1260 days, but it is not the FULL Day of the Lord, that lasts for the whole 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus from Jerusalem. So, that is why they are rejoicing in the coming DOTL. The Wrath is the process God uses to weed out the evil tyrants and such, where Jesus can then set up his Kingdom Age in Jerusalem.

Its not the 6th Seal, per se, the problem is the 6th Seal is merely Jesus foretelling of what the Trumpet Wrath will soon bring, the tribulation of those days start with the Asteroid Impact, until one understand the Wrath of God and Jacobs troubles are parallel, God only allows the Beast to go forth conquering when the Asteroid Impact hits. Its also smart strategy for the Beast and Satan, let me explain why. I think these things though, lets say you or I are this evil Anti-Christ, (SMILE) and our goal is to conquer Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Since this Beast is said in Dan. 8:23 to understand dark sentences (Riddles) we know he takes advice from Satan. We know Satan is a brilliant tactician right? So, if you could understand what is coming like the Asteroid Impact (the 1/3 is North and South America catching fire) and the Gog and Magog War here would be the logical strategy for Satan, a very wise being.

So, I know the USA likes to meddle in everything around the world, I know the Middle of the week Asteroid Impact is going to hit just off the California Coastline and that the 1/3 of the Trees that burn is speaking about the New World which has 1/3 of the worlds landmass. The Pacific it hits in has 1/3 of the water on the face of the earth, so this 1/3 is the New World, I figured that out via the Holy Spirit, I think Satan know this, so whilst that Asteroid hits, and the whole world is preoccupied with devastation in the Americas, this evil tyrant will go forth conquering . He also knows that the Gog & Magog war will see God take out the Russian, Turkish and Iranian Armies, so thee will be no Russia and no USA to try and stop him, why would you go forth conquering until the Asteroid hits? See my point its a known strategy by Satan. He will send the A.C. forth conquering on the DOTL and thus both the Beasts rule and God's Wrath lasts for 1260 days.

The Rapture is Pre Trib, the 2nd Coming is post trib. Paul is speaking about Jesus coming for the Church, Pre Trib.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I'm not dogmatic about John 5:43 speaking to the future, it was clearly spoken to those in the past. One might ascribe the Jews accepting false messiahs in their day, I just don't limit it to that and believe it could also be taken as a general statement that natural Israel rejected the Messiah who came in His Father's name, but are willing to accept strong men coming in their own names, to include the ultimate incarnation who stands in the temple of God declaring himself to be god.

Here is the problem, and again, this is why we have to know the scriptures overall, here a little there a little. Once we know that the A.C. is a Gentile King, we understand the Jews will never accept this man as their Messiah, it just would never happen. We must remember, only those Jews who repent (1/3) will be in hiding, everyone else the A.C. can get at, he will not give ANYONE his glory, he actually sees himself as god just like Dan. 11:36-45 says. He will kill anyone who denies this. They only ones he will feel the need to try and trick will be the 1/3 who repented and are in hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area. Those are the ones he and the False Prophet try to trick, but Matt. 24:25-28 shows us these Elect can not be tricked because Jesus has foretold them to pay no attention to anyone claiming they are the "Messiah" in the Desert or in the Secret Storage Rooms, he then says BEHOLD, I will come from the Eastern Skies for all to see, so unless the A.C. flies in from the East he can not trick them. So, IMHO, it just does not add up that the Jews ever accept a Gentile King as their Messiah, its just another misinterpretation from long ago that got passed down as very plausible, when its not. They simply sign and AGREEMENT, people see Covenant and assume this a Holy FAKE Agreement, no, its an Agreement between men, Israel joins the E.U. (IMHO), they never accept this E.U. President as their "Jewish Messiah" it just isn't reality tbh, but many people think this.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

There is clearly deception from the rejection of God's Word to believing cleverly devised fables like macro-evolution over intelligent design. I love the work Stephen C. Meyer and the Discovery Institute have been doing to present the immense complexity of life and the code more complex than any computer code that makes life happen. You would think in this age of computers that people would recognize that if a complex computer program didn't just happen due to random changes over time, but requires a programmer, that the far more complex chemical coding behind DNA and the proteins it creates would have to come from an intelligent source.

I was reading some of his stuff many, many years ago. The Universe is 13.7 billion years old and the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. But God created everything over that time period, until 6000 years ago, on the 6th Day God created Mankind. I get atheist that say, but, but, but man has been around 100 k or so years and I leave them speechless because I tell them how can you measure when God placed Hos Spirit into men? Only then did we become Human Brings made in God's Image, Immortal beings. They can't argue the case any further, lol. Also, I have an old blog showing each day and the first day (YOWM or Period of Time) lasted 9.2 billion years. Then when God says there was Darkness on the face of the Deep He knew (of course) exactly what the WMAP Space Probe found out that imaged space with Radar. It had 400 million years of Darkness before any suns started forming , proving God's words true, 100 percent. Another thing is, God said He moved on the FACE OF THE WATERS, then said let there be light, I always wondered what that meant via studies for my blog I found out Light is in a beam (sun beam) unless it gets reflected or refracted. So, God gave us an earth with an atmosphere that traps in moisture, thus the sun gets reflected and lights up the whole earth, meanwhile just outside our atmosphere, when we leave out Bio-Dome, we see it gets much, much darker !! Also, the Fourth Day was the creation of our SEASONS, Earth and the Moon were the same size, after they crashed into each other the earth got the vast majority of the mass and gained a "Satellite" that controls or tides and seasons.

Yea, I am into finding out truth where I can pass it on. I read guys like this and Richard Deem all the time.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

The Masoretic text in Daniel 8:14 actually uses ereb (evening) boqer (morning) translated as days, which can hide some of the nuance as they point out in the article. Yes an evening and morning equate to a day, but in the context of the daily sacrifice being taken away, there was an evening and morning sacrifice. In Daniel 8:26, the word used for days is yom, meaning day, time period, etc. which is more of what we would consider as day. I thought that distinction was interesting.

Yes, Yowm or yom as I cited above. (Smile) I put forth a rather wordy dissertation on why YOWM doesn't just mean DAY and why it really means Period of TIME, and then I showed how it is used in about 25 verses that does not mean day.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I personally think that verse 23 points back to 22 because it speaks to the splitting of the kingdom into four, which happened when Alexander gave his kingdom to his four generals. This would seem to be pointing to the latter time of the four generals' kingdom.

Daniel 8:22-23

Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Verse 25 states without(H657) hand(H3027) he will be broken(H7665).

Verse 23 is the End Time Anti-Christ, we know because the Prince of princes is Jesus Christ, of course, and because Greece is still a kingdom, the that means the las end of their kingdom is now, just before Jesus takes over. When the transgressions come full means God's Wrath is filled up. The King of fierce countenance is the A.C. also .Him knowing Dark Sentences is what Matt. 24:24 shows. It means he understands Satanic riddle like when to go forth conquering via the Asteroid Impact.

Remember, Antiochus was the ARCHETYPE A.C. so of course he was killed also WITHOUT HAND by a Disease he caught on the Eastern front in war. He also had an archetype False Prophet in Jason (real name Yeshua) he tried to mandate that all Jews become Hellenized, he sacrifice a pig on God's altar, but he is just a shadow of the A.C. to come.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

It is a possiblity that the same Antiochus who placed an idol to be worshipped in the temple also was destroyed without hand. As foreshadows go, both could be true one pointing to the other.

Yes indeed, but Antiochus was not be killed by the Prince of princes like the coming Anti-Christ will be.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I figured you've probably seen a lot of those perspectives before. There's a lot to take in and so little time in the day. Is it just me or do days seem to be getting shorter? Lol

The end or our Forever home is just getting closer by the day, making us seem to be closer and closer, which we are. Patience Grasshopper (you may not get that old 70s TV show reference).

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

I agree the seals aren't wrath. The sixth seal is a herald of the DOTL, but it has not come yet. Assuming a literal view of time though and the fact that the DOTL comes as sudden destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if the wrath starts a mere half hour after the signs of the sixth seal.

Wont be long, but remember, the Wrath starts after Seal #7 in Rev. 8, we know the Jews get a 30 day warning (AoD) so Rev. 7 has to last at least 30 days in between Rev. 6 and Rev. 8. So, my guess is about 30 days. Rev. 18:4 is the same event, "Come out of her my people lest you receive of her (Babylon's) plagues" is God telling The Woman/144,000/really 3.5-5 million Jews to flee Judea. In Rev. 18:2 the reason Babylon is now inhabited by Demons is because Satan has been cast down to earth and Babylon = The Whole World.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Agreed, although I think we've established I hold the end of the church age, fulness of the Gentiles, is slightly later than you do.

Well, you can't be right on everything or you would be me.

On 9/3/2023 at 12:58 AM, Triton57 said:

Being offended has never gotten me anywhere, just end up consumed in my own anger, usually due to my pride. Many times the more I dwelt on it I just ended up with lingering soul issues that Christ needed to iron out once I was wise enough to let go of my pride. It still wells up sometimes and now I just laugh at myself inside and remind myself how many times I was in the wrong and still let it consume me. God has a broken vessel now that is willing and ready to conform to the image He desires and that takes away any need for pride in myself. Now my focus is on pride in my God and the wonderful things He has done and will do for those that love Him.

We all have lots of opportunities to learn from each other, whether it's whole ideas or some part of an idea we hadn't considered before, that's the beauty of debate

I usually go back over to soften up the edges, but this took me a few hours to get through, whilst doing other stuff, and they are hollering RIBS, RIBS, come and get them, so I will not try to soften the edges today. Suck it up.

God Bless.

Triton57 · September 4, 2023

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm not sure that is the case since this has a time frame of 3.5 years, some say. I see 'times, time, and half a time' as a season, which may well be 3.5 years. In this case it could not be longer than that, shorter, but not longer.

Here it's not the same as Zech 14:3-5 since in Rev 12 above the dragon is off to make war against the ones who keep God's commands and the Testimony of Jesus Christ. In Zech 14 Jesus has come back to put an end to the beast and the dragon.

It would make sense that if Jesus is back and saving the remnant in Jerusalem then the 1st resurrection has also happened at this point in Zech 14:3-5.

The dragon's war would be over and The Lamb's wrath is poured out.

You're probably right, Zechariah 14:1-8 has always been a passage I didn't really dig into much, but I also couldn't get the thought out of my mind that this sounds like the imagery of Revelation 12 where the woman is fleeing from the dragon's "flood" and the earth helps the woman and swallows up the flood.

First it warns the day of the Lord is coming and their spoil will be divided. This seems to fit with Christ's return at Armageddon, which is after the wrath phase of the day of the Lord, but is still the day of the Lord. Furthermore we know this is when the nations are gathered to Israel to fight Christ at His return and indeed He will destroy the gathered armies.

Zechariah 14:1-3

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Then there is this part about the mount of Olives cleaving and creating a great valley through which they're told to flee and then the Lord will come and all the saints.

Zechariah 14:4-5

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

At the time of Christ's return the beast will have been ruling from Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years, the wrath of God has decimated the city of Jerusalem. Who are the "they" fleeing? It would sound like Israel with the call back to how they fled before the earthquake of King Uzziah of Judah.

Would we expect anyone but the armies gathered for Armageddon at the Mount of Olives at Christ's return? The remnant of Israel will be in the wilderness already, their 3 1/2 years of protection almost completed. The bride will be returning with Yeshua. It would be amazing if there were any contingent of Messianic Jew or Christian in Judea who could have survived 3 1/2 years in the heart of the antichrist's kingdom, but that's hard to believe possible.

I suppose in the context of a Jewish antichrist, it could be talking of the Jewish followers of the man of sin, who would flee to the valley of the mountains, although it seems odd to run toward a valley that has just been created from cleaving the Mount of Olives unless there was something worse forcing you there.

It may not be through the newly created valley they are fleeing either, but one another valley around Jerusalem to flee from the creation of that valley when Christ steps on the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:6-8

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Then there's the clear imagery after of the time after Christ's return during the millennial reign where He is the light and the living water.

So my instinct is to just accept this as a part of Christ's return at Armageddon as that's where it logically fits.

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"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." 1 Thess 5

The day does not come upon us like a thief, only those in unbelief.

I agree wholeheartedly! We wouldn't be told so many times to be sober and watch

Luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mark 13:32-37

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Matthew 25:11-13

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:42-44

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 3:3

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This would imply that if you are watching He will not come as a thief.

Revelation 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We don't know when the Son of man is coming, but we're told to watch for Him so we're not taken by surprise. This points to those believers in time past not knowing the day, but for those watching as the day gets closer, they will have the things that Yeshua and the Spirit warned would happen in the end. There are events that will begin to unfold that, if you are not watching for in the context of God's warnings to us, will be lost to the cares of this world until the trap is sprung and that day arrives suddenly. It's this call to watch that woke me up back in 2005.

John 15:12-17

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Quote

Indeed. It's an aorist 'tense', as it were. Whatever it is just exists. A Greek language scholar said the aorist verb is like flying over a parade and taking a picture. The picture is the aorist. The parade exists but there is no time element. No start, no end, no duration, it just IS.

This is the same with Rev 11:18

18The nations were enraged,

and Your wrath has come.

This is also the aorist 'tense'. As you agreed wrath does NOT come twice. There is no duration evident. If duration is applied to Rev 6:17 then it must also be applied to Rev 11:18. That can't be the case so then if wrath begins at the 6th seal, wrath also begins at the 7th trump.

Therefore, seals and trumps have some sort of ordered successive/concurrent relationship.

I agree they have an ordered successive relationship, but I don't see how they could also be concurrent. The point I feel is relevant is that at the sixth seal there are statements of His wrath being present, albeit by unbelievers, but stated nonetheless. Then at the seventh trumpet it is also said His wrath is present and of course the bowls explicitly stated to be the vials of the wrath of God.

This implies a period of time from that event to the next and therefore a period in which that wrath is come. If the wrath is come at each point in time separated from each other by time, then it seems logical to state that the period between them is that time of wrath.

As I mentioned before, the sequence shows all seven seals being completed before the angels are given the trumpets to blast. Likewise all seven trumpets are sounded before the temple of the tabernacle is opened and the seven angels come out of the temple with the bowls of wrath. It would follow then if the wrath is present at the sixth seal and the wrath is present at the seventh trumpet that the time from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet, and ultimately into all seven bowls, is the wrath of God.

I don't see any way to connect the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet as the same event given both the clear sequence as written from the seals to the bowls, but also because there's no clear similarities beyond some of the same types of things happening. Therefore, I can't attempt to say that since the wrath is come in both places that perhaps they are concurrent.

Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The only common element is an earthquake and if one interprets the stars falling to earth as hail, that as well. Earthquakes happen at several point, the censer before the trumpets, after the 2 witnesses are resurrected, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. The seventh bowl is described as unparalleled, so it is set apart from the earthquakes prior.

There are clearly distinctive things happening differently in each. Given all the Old Testament references to the sun, moon and star event signaling the day of the Lord beginning, I would expect any reference to events happening at this time to include those.

To that end, the day of the Lord is declared to be God's wrath and comes just after the signs of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17), which seems to fit perfectly with the completion of the seals, angels told not to hurt the earth until the 144,000 are sealed (Revelation 7:1-3), trumpets being handed to the angels (Revelation 8:2), the trumpets blowing and acts of God destroy the earth, the seventh trumpet heralding the third woe (Revelation 11:14-19) in which the seven bowls are poured out, which in them is filled up (finish, fulfil, accomplish, perform, expire) the wrath of God. Revelation 15:1

This all seems to be a logical and scripturally based reasoning as to the sequential nature of the seals, trumpets and bowls as well as them representing the judgements of God on the earth. Starting with the declaration at the sixth seal that His wrath is come, at least 1/2 hour later, probably a little longer, the trumpets are handed to the angels and the wrath begins. This continues through to the end of the seventh bowl when it is done. Revelation 16:17

I don't feel that I'm taking scripture out of context or putting words in God's mouth to force the wrath to extend beyond the explicit call-outs of that wrath, but maybe I'm just missing something.

Triton57 · September 4, 2023

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its just not the case, the coming of the Lord to gather is Pre Trib, that is why 1 Thess. 1;10 says we will be delivered from the wrath of God. The Day of the Lord simply means this: The Day God starts taking back the title deed to the earth that Satan tricked Adam out of, God gave Adam dominion over the whole earth, we humans allowed Satan to gain a hold of that dominion. So, the Pre Trib rapture happens because the Time of the Gentiles (Service unto God) comes to an end when the 70th week starts, Israel penance is back at hand, the first 69 weeks has been paid, Israel must and will repent during the 70th week but the Church will not be on this earth. Thus the Remnant in Rev. 12:17 is the Remnant Church, not a Remnant Jewish peoples.

The DOTL is God's Wrath, the Rapture of the Church happens 3.5 years before this, the "2nd Coming" happens 3.5 years after this.

What in scripture do you define the wrath of God as? I too believe in a pre-wrath catching away of the bride. I've found though that many pre-trib conflate the wrath of God with the tribulation with the 70th week and that's what causes them to put the rapture 3.5 years before the 70th week. I've been unable to find any scripture connecting the wrath of God with the 70th week. It sounds like you place the DOTL in the middle of the week of years, which is exactly where I place it as well, so do you separate the DOTL/wrath of God from the week as well? If so, what causes you to subtract 3.5 years from the day of the Lord when His wrath comes to put the rapture at the beginning of the week? I see all over the correlation of the wrath of God coming coincidentally with the catching away of the bride.

Isaiah 63:1-6
Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Joel 2:31-32

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isaiah 13:6-13

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Isaiah 26:19-21

Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

These are a few verses that I think all place the timing of the wrath of God with the redemption of His bride. They are all linked in many places by the signs of the sixth seal, a pivotal moment in history, and Yeshua Himself places the gathering after that or coincidental with it.

Your definition of the day of the Lord defined as the day God starts taking back the title deed to earth, is that based on the idea of the seals being broken to open the scroll and that being what's written on the scroll? If so, would you consider the wrath of God to then start after all seven seals are broken, meaning the seals would be broken prior to and/or during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week?

I would also be curious in the scriptures relating our catching away to the times of the Gentiles. Luke 21:20-26 states that from 70 AD when the destruction happened that Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. This seems as it could be pretty heavily burdened on personal interpretation. For instance one could say that Israel got control of Jerusalem over half a century ago. Or one might say it's dependent upon Jerusalem not having any Gentiles in it. How is that timing related to the 70th week though?

I do see just after that point is the sign of the sixth seal, which would actually fit quite nicely with a Jewish antichrist view such that the rebuilding of the temple and wars of the antichrist in Daniel 11:40-45 leading into the AoD in Daniel 12:1. I could picture the Jews in their religious fervor and thinking the Messiah has arrived and is unbeatable, taking over Jerusalem and pushing everyone else out or something more focused like just pushing them out of the temple area.

How I would interpret at this point would be in light of the Jewish antichrist idea where the times of the Gentiles would be just after the abomination of desolation when the antichrist will demand worship and anyone who doesn't bow the knee is killed, effectively eliminating any Gentiles since he will be standing in the temple declaring himself to be the Messiah.

I believe it could also be tied to the fulness of the Gentiles, Romans 11:25, but I think those are two different focuses. I think the fulness of the Gentiles is the point when Israel's blindness is removed vs. Jerusalem no longer being trodden down by the Gentiles. The blindness being removed I think happens in the time just after the abomination of desolation when the remnant of Israel who refuse to worship the man of sin see him for who he is and follow the warning of Yeshua to run to the mountains. It is after this tribulation in Judea that the sign of the Son of man and the sixth seal comes and the elect are gathered, provoking the remnant to jealousy (Romans 10:19; 11:11) and remaining protected in the wilderness come to know the Messiah they (corporate Israel they) rejected. As Joel 2:32 states, "it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" and when their blindness is removed after they see the Gentiles and Messianic Jews taken in the rapture, they will call on the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:39, Luke 13:35) They will then come out of that time when Yeshua returns into the Promised Land under His reign.

Triton57 · September 4, 2023

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You and others seem to conflate the "2nd coming" which is a misnomer, Jesus has come to earth many, many times, see John chapter 20, he returned to earth with the gift of the holy spirit after going to heaven to offer the Sacrifice, how do we inow this? By reading, Jesus told Mary, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" so Mary merely touching Jesus would have defiled the "Sacrifice" because God is so holy He can not come into the presence of sin. But 8 days later when Jesus visits them in the upper room he asked Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds !! Meaning he went to Heaven, offered the Sacrifice, and returned, so the "2nd Coming" is just not a proper name, it means the 2nd Advent, which means he came as a Suffering Servant to die for our sins and will Return as a Conquering King to rule. The whole, WELL, Jesus can't come but twice is just unbiblical fodder, we see Jesus was the Rock Israel followed in the Desert, Jesus was I Am that I Am the burning bush, Jesus was the Man in Linen in Daniel 12 et al.

I try not to use the term second coming so if I used it before without further explanation I apologize. I believe He came once to live and die and defeat death for the sins of mankind, will come again with sudden wrath and destruction when He gathers the bride of Christ, and then will return with the bride at Armageddon to destroy the gathered armies and setup His millennial kingdom. These are the relevant times related to watching IMO. If you have any other scriptures related to the timing of His future coming outside of the times I mentioned I would be interested in understanding.

Triton57 · September 4, 2023

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

They were afraid because of a lie someone told them, that Paul said they were in the DOTL, then Paul says this can not happen, both the Church must depart [its standing as being on this earth] and the Anti-Christ must come onto the scene, after all he makes the 7 year deal that kicks off the rapture and the 70th week, and since the DOTL comes in the middle of that week it doesn't take a scholar to understand the DOTL can not happen unto those other two things come to pass first.

Right, if they thought they were in the DOTL, associated with Christ's coming, that would mean they had missed the catching away as well. They likely understood they were not appointed to God's wrath and were concerned regarding the coming of the Lord and their gathering to Him that they were the 5 foolish virgins.

I agree the bride must depart before the DOTL and the antichrist must both confirm the covenant with many and later declare himself God in the temple before the DOTL.

You yourself state that the DOTL is in the middle of the week, to which I agree, I just don't know why you must place the catching away before the week when your own statements are that we must be caught up before the DOTL (pre-wrath) and the antichrist revealed before the DOTL and the order Yeshua gives in the Olivet discourse all point to the catching away fulfilling a pre-DOTL timing while also being after the tribulation of those days, which is after the man of sin is revealed in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. What scripture states the catching away is before the 70th week?

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