70 Weeks of Daniel

[Triton57]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yeshua quotes Daniel 12:11 for the "abomination of desolation," not Daniel 9:27, which, in the Hebrew, does not use this term at all. You are quoting others in asserting this view, without checking out their reliability.

An accurate reading of the Hebrew text for Daniel 9:27 can be found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

Without Daniel 9:27, you cannot provide any evidence for a 7-year period in the End Times, because any such evidence simply does not exist. The only dated End Time time prophecy is for 1260 days/42 months/3-1/2 times, which is found in multiple places in Daniel and Revelation.

 

I agree Yeshua is quoting Daniel 12:11. I have learned a lot from others and try to check everything against scripture. I think scripture explains itself and where I find divergence from scripture I try and turn myself back in line with it. Doing some research I can see what you're talking about between Daniel 12:11 (šiq-qūṣ) and Daniel 9:27 (šiq-qū-ṣîm). It's very interesting and a nuance I was unaware of before, I appreciate you bringing it to my attention! It seems the deeper you dive into Hebrew the more amazing things get.

 

So does "And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer" (plural) from Daniel 9:27 mean something different from "a desolating abomination" (singular) in Daniel 12:11? This seems to be missing the forest for the trees. This abomination (singular) of desolation does not stand alone in scripture and neither does abominations/idols of a destroyer upon/over a wing (plural).

 

Matthew 24:15, 21-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination (singular) of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ...

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Daniel 12:1, 11

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ...

And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination (singular) that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

You would seem to agree then that Yeshua is speaking of Daniel 12:1, 11 in regards to the unparalleled time that begins after Michael stands. Would you also agree that in addition to a desolating abomination, the daily is taken away as well?

 

I also understand the daily (H8548 - tāmîḏ) and sacrifice (H2077 - zeḇaḥ) and oblation (H4503 -minḥâ) aren't the same words in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 9:27 respectively. Does that mean they aren't conveying the same message?

 

Daniel 12:11's "daily" (H8548 - tāmîḏ) is used throughout the Old Testament in the context of the continuous offerings of incense, fire on the altar and perpetual sacrifices done daily in Numbers 28:1-8 and elsewhere. In the context of the abomination of desolation (singular) Yeshua points to, this would be talking about the stopping of the daily sacrifice.

 

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (plural) he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Daniel 9:27's sacrifice (H2077 - zeḇaḥ) is more generically used for sacrifices and peace offerings from before Sinai and after in terms of animal sacrifice primarily.

 

Daniel 9:27's oblation (H4503 -minḥâ) paired with sacrifice that is also stopped is used more as an offering and present, but also a meat offering.

 

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but the fact that the stopping of the same daily offering in context of the statutes God gave Israel to follow forever and the abomination(s), whether singular or plural, that make desolate would seem to overshadow the singular or plural nature of the abomination(s). It's probably unlikely that the man of sin will only have one abomination to offer in his desolations anyway.

 

Revelation 13:4-8

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

I'm also not a Greek scholar, but both things and blasphemies coming from the man of sin's mouth are showing to be accusative neuter plural and accusative feminine plural, unless I'm misunderstanding the grammar as presented digging around.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3-9

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Paul tells us that when he that is withholding is taken out of the way, the man of sin is revealed, the one who opposes and exalts himself above God, sitting in the temple stating He's God.

 

So we have the man of sin speaking great things and blasphemies stating that he is above God or is called god while sitting in God's temple doing so. He is setting himself up on the wing as an idol to be worshipped while stopping the sacrifice and oblation that he likely allowed to be started just 3 1/2 years earlier, according to Daniel 9:27. (If you believe they could be speaking of the same event.)

 

Looking at what I see as historical foreshadow fulfillments by Antiochus Epiphanes IV, with the exception that he didn't declare himself God, he just setup idols to be worshipped in the temple, we see the same combination in describing this act of stopping the daily sacrifice and oblation that is supposed to be done perpetually evening and morning, and setting up an idol that makes desolate.

 

Daniel 11:31

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

 

Daniel 8:9-13

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land]. And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

The wording is different here as well, the transgression of desolation regarding the sanctuary being cast down. For me, the words don't have to match exactly or the singluar and plural of them to get the point over and over from the Old Testament. I believe Daniel gave us 4 descriptions of the same combination of events, 2 of them foreshadows to have an idea of what this event is, and 2 yet unfulfilled pointed to by Yeshua so both Jew and Gentile would understand from history when it happened that it is the event He was warning about. The fact that he is revealed at this event, I believe, gives further credence to this idea. If we did not know what the abomination of desolation was from Yeshua pointing to Daniel, how would we associate that event with the revealing of the man of sin?

 

A sidenote in looking into the Hebrew a little more. As you pointed out, Daniel 9:27 speaks of a overspreading / wing / corner / border (H3671) in regards to the idol's location. The same word is used earlier in scripture.

 

Exodus 25:17-22

And thou shalt make a mercy seat [of] pure gold: two cubits and a half [shall be] the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

 

I honestly don't know what to think of Ron Wyatt, he did some great amateur Biblical archaeology work in many areas. His testimony on the Ark of the Covenant was really difficult to swallow, but at the same time offered several ideas that would truly have been supernatural.

 

First, that Jeremiah, before the Babylonian captivity, hiding the Ark of the Covenant in the cave systems under Jerusalem.

 

2 Maccabees 2:1-8
One finds in the records that Jeremiah the prophet ordered those who were being deported to take some of the fire, as has been told, and that the prophet after giving them the law instructed those who were being deported not to forget the commandments of the Lord, nor to be led astray in their thoughts upon seeing the gold and silver statues and their adornment. And with other similar words he exhorted them that the law should not depart from their hearts. It was also in the writing that the prophet, having received an oracle, ordered that the tent and the ark should follow with him, and that he went out to the mountain where Moses had gone up and had seen the inheritance of God. And Jeremiah came and found a cave, and he brought there the tent and the ark and the altar of incense, and he sealed up the entrance. Some of those who followed him came up to mark the way, but could not find it. When Jeremiah learned of it, he rebuked them and declared: “The place shall be unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows his mercy. And then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord and the cloud will appear, as they were shown in the case of Moses, and as Solomon asked that the place should be specially consecrated.”

 

Second, he then states that he found it under Calvary with blood on the mercy seat and that at the crucifixion when the rocks were rent, the blood of Christ fell on the mercy seat of the Ark, hidden there centuries earlier and literally fulfilling the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat, an atonement once and for all.

 

What do you think would happen to modern Israel if someone brought forth the discovered Ark of the Covenant from the cave systems and confirming the Mosaic covenant by re-instituting the daily sacrifice and oblations in a rebuilt temple with the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies? (There are some who say the government has found it but is awaiting the right time to reveal it.) Would that give enough political will to show that Jerusalem and the temple mount is truly originally Israel's and drop all the lies that are allowed to slide today?

 

What if the man of sin, after conquering Israel's enemies following the inevitable upheaval that would take place in the middle east when Israel asserts their dominance over the Temple Mount and begins building the temple regardless of those up in arms about it? What if the abomination of desolation is literally the man of sin sitting on the mercy seat speaking these blasphemies between the overstretched wings of the cherubim? Who knows, crazy to think about though and boy would that shift the spiritual climate of the whole world. That kind of archaeological evidence brought back from ancient history?

 

Jeremiah 3:16-18

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

 

Does this say the Ark will no more be remembered from time immemorial, or is this looking at the millennial kingdom after the 70th week when Israel and Judah are again joined with Yeshua ruling with a rod of iron when they will no longer remember it? Perhaps it's revealing is part of the great deception for Israel, the strong delusion God sends that they believe a lie, another piece that would sway them to accept the man of sin as their messiah? Who knows, I digress.

 

Anyway, do you have a historical fulfillment that requires the 70th week to be completed already? What was the purpose of the 70 weeks prophecy for Israel and Jerusalem in your perspective? You would posit that all things were fulfilled in the 70 weeks prophecy or that God is now done dealing with Israel?

[Diaste]

 

 

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

I agree they have an ordered successive relationship, but I don't see how they could also be concurrent. The point I feel is relevant is that at the sixth seal there are statements of His wrath being present, albeit by unbelievers, but stated nonetheless. Then at the seventh trumpet it is also said His wrath is present and of course the bowls explicitly stated to be the vials of the wrath of God.

Exactly. And the aorist is translated as an arrival. 

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

This implies a period of time from that event to the next and therefore a period in which that wrath is come. If the wrath is come at each point in time separated from each other by time, then it seems logical to state that the period between them is that time of wrath.

I think the language is precise. There is no duration. If the aorist in Rev 11:18 is a past tense then the aorist in Rev 6:17 is also a past tense as both are the same verb. It cannot be past tense in Rev 6:17 as we understand wrath has now arrived based on the signs and the lament of the people. 

So neither are past tense but an existence, which is why we see 'is come' and 'has come' in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18, respectively.

That means both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 are an arrival of wrath at that moment.

More precisely it seems the people are lamenting the impending wrath of God and the Lamb in Rev 6:17 based on the signs and the heavenly assembly in Rev 11:18 is declaring wrath has officially arrived, it's not abstract, this is the reality.

So whether one could see how it's possible or not the evidence is there for the conclusion. 

I used to think the same. I was brought up in the pretrib dispensational doctrine and I'm convinced the idea of a strict succession originated with that group about 150 years ago.

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

As I mentioned before, the sequence shows all seven seals being completed before the angels are given the trumpets to blast. Likewise all seven trumpets are sounded before the temple of the tabernacle is opened and the seven angels come out of the temple with the bowls of wrath. It would follow then if the wrath is present at the sixth seal and the wrath is present at the seventh trumpet that the time from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet, and ultimately into all seven bowls, is the wrath of God.

I used to think the same. But again, there is no successive language in Rev 8:2, it's just, "And I saw..." It's the same as Rev 4:1. What John saw didn't flow from the last letter to the church, or from the command in Rev 1:19. Seeing the door opened in heaven didn't rely on the written letters. However John does say "After this..." so seeing the door opened was the next thing that occurred after the dictation of the letters. That is not the case in Rev 8:2. IMO.

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

I don't see any way to connect the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet as the same event given both the clear sequence as written from the seals to the bowls, but also because there's no clear similarities beyond some of the same types of things happening. Therefore, I can't attempt to say that since the wrath is come in both places that perhaps they are concurrent.

I'm not saying they are the same event. It's a successive/concurrent arrangement. The 6th seal and 7th trump occur in proximity on the time/space continuum. It's apparent to me the 6th seal is the herald of wrath in the form of the signs, with wrath's fully realized beginning at the 7th trump.

So they are successive as in one must occur before the other and concurrent in a time and space moment of some duration. Wrath doesn't occur before the signs in the cosmos and must begin at the 7th trump, it's the only place in scripture where I see wrath as existing at that moment, with the bowls as the real time, physical wrathful events and conditions poured out after. 

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

The only common element is an earthquake and if one interprets the stars falling to earth as hail, that as well. Earthquakes happen at several point, the censer before the trumpets, after the 2 witnesses are resurrected, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. The seventh bowl is described as unparalleled, so it is set apart from the earthquakes prior.

True, but the 6th seal is the herald and it's a parallel to Matt 24:29-30, so they would not be the same event. The 7th seal, the 7th trump and the 7th bowl are all associated as depicting similar events. I hope I didn't say that wrong before. I do see the 6th sea; and 7th bowl as related as well in a different way. 

In both the islands and mountains are deflected from their positions. 

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

There are clearly distinctive things happening differently in each. Given all the Old Testament references to the sun, moon and star event signaling the day of the Lord beginning, I would expect any reference to events happening at this time to include those.

 

To that end, the day of the Lord is declared to be God's wrath and comes just after the signs of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17), which seems to fit perfectly with the completion of the seals, angels told not to hurt the earth until the 144,000 are sealed (Revelation 7:1-3), trumpets being handed to the angels (Revelation 8:2), the trumpets blowing and acts of God destroy the earth, the seventh trumpet heralding the third woe (Revelation 11:14-19) in which the seven bowls are poured out, which in them is filled up (finish, fulfil, accomplish, perform, expire) the wrath of God. Revelation 15:1.

Joel says, 

"

Grain and drink offerings have been cut off

from the house of the LORD;

the priests are in mourning,

those who minister before the LORD.

10The field is ruined;

the land mourns.

For the grain is destroyed,

the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails.

11Be dismayed, O farmers,

wail, O vinedressers,

over the wheat and barley,

because the harvest of the field has perished.

12The grapevine is dried up,

and the fig tree is withered;

the pomegranate, palm, and apple—

all the trees of the orchard—are withered.

Surely the joy of mankind has dried up.

Alas for the day!

For the Day of the LORD is near,

and it will come

as destruction from the Almighty.b

16Has not the food been cut off

before our very eyes—

joy and gladness

from the house of our God?

17The seeds lie shriveled beneath the clods;

the storehouses are in ruins;

the granaries are broken down,

for the grain has withered away.

18How the cattle groan!

The herds wander in confusion

because they have no pasture.

Even the flocks of sheep are suffering.

19To You, O LORD, I call,

for fire has consumed the open pastures

and flames have scorched all the trees of the field.

20Even the beasts of the field pant for You,

for the streams of water have dried up,

and fire has consumed the open pastures.

And shows me the 1st trump has sounded by the time of the A of D.

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

This all seems to be a logical and scripturally based reasoning as to the sequential nature of the seals, trumpets and bowls as well as them representing the judgements of God on the earth. Starting with the declaration at the sixth seal that His wrath is come, at least 1/2 hour later, probably a little longer, the trumpets are handed to the angels and the wrath begins. This continues through to the end of the seventh bowl when it is done. Revelation 16:17

Trumps are not called wrath. In my mind when something is explicitly named and another thing is not, and the Lord God Himself is saying it, then it wasn't an oversight or mistake. Trumps and seal are not wrath, only the bowls are.

On 9/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, Triton57 said:

 

I don't feel that I'm taking scripture out of context or putting words in God's mouth to force the wrath to extend beyond the explicit call-outs of that wrath, but maybe I'm just missing something.

Maybe it's just the nature of mankind requiring an interpretation based on long ingrained perceptions and the experience of life in this natural realm. I admit that a succession of seals, trumps, and bowls would be neat, orderly and easy to digest. But nothing prohibits a conjunction in successive concurrence of a portion of the sets and evidence exists of just such a melding of some elements.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:15 PM, Triton57 said:

As I mentioned in the Tribulation Nuance post, I think there's a lot the different timing views agree on, it's just the definition of key terms that causes division and strife. I understand the pre-trib view, I just don't agree with it at this time like I used to before self-study. I don't see how the point of the parable of the 10 virgins and the church being cast into great tribulation would be a definitive sign of a pre-trib catching away of the bride.

The 5 Virgins who do not make it go through the 70th week, which will lead to them being in  the greatest evert troubles, and maybe to them not making Heaven. Jesus told the Disciples you must endure until the end. When Noah was shut up into the Ark, even before the rains came, those outside the arks fate was already decided, even before the Rains then Floods came. So, if you know 5 of the 10 "Church Virgins" will not make the Rapture then why wouldn't they be warned as a whole that they could be in danger of going through this greatest ever troubles? I mean half the "Church" is not going to make the wedding call, so it sees an appropriate warning. You seem to take the warning and assume the whole church will be in tribulation, when Paul tells us we will be saved from the Wrath of God. 

If you miss the Rapture there is no other outlet/time to leave earth. When Noah was shut up, no one else got in. Once you do not enter the ark (get Raptured Pre Trib) you will go through the flood (tribulation). The timing tells are not hard to comprehend, you even showed by citing Rev. 19 it can only be Pre Trib but you do not understand it yet. I for the life of me can't understand why people want to intermingle the Churches calling of Service with Israel's calling of Service, Paul clearly states that when the TIME of the Gentiles are COME FULL, then all Israel will be saved, that does not mean every Jew, it means Israel as a Nation is saved, because every tribe has on average, a 1/3 who come to Christ Jesus. 

We will not be here during the 70th week, that is Israel time to repent, our jobs on earth are done. Ok, BELOW, I am going to prove to you 100 percent that the 70th week, and the [mostly] Gentile Church Age can not cross over according to Jesus' own instructions, in so doing I must teach in depth on the Matt. 24 Mt. of Olives sermon by Jesus called the Olivet Discourse. Most people just do not get what Jesus is saying in Matt. 24:4-14, they WAY TO MUCH try to tie it to the end times, which it vaguely speaks of, but overall the Disciples are Jesus' focus in Matt. 24:4-14, and he teaching them 100 percent how to help the church survive what is coming, until it becomes their time to set an example of the Church with their deaths (save John). In so doing, it becomes 100 percent clear the Church will not be here for the 70th week. Think THE END IS NOT YET in vs. 6 and think WHAT BRINGS THE END in vs. 14 and think WHAT THE END IS !!

 

Matthew 24 the Disciples guide to help the Fledgling Church survive

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, (1)Tell us, when shall these things be?(temples destruction) and what shall be (2)the sign of thy coming, and of the (3)end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;(speaking about 70 AD events ONLY) and shall deceive many.

6 And ye(Disciples) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

{{{ Above is 70 AD (well 67-70 AD) events only, not the end time Anti-Christ or "false christ" types in the end times, but these are only 70 AD false christs which fulfill John 5:43's prophecy unto the Pharisees. Jesus specifically says (VERY IMPORTANT), the End is not yet or is by and by meaning LATER ON. That end Jesus is referring unto is the 70th week, it is VERY, VERY Important to grasp this. I will show 100 percent how we the Church are not here for the end by Jesus' own prophecy.

Those rumors of wars was the 70 AD Roman invasion of the "Fourth Beast" where the Pharisees put forth men as messianic political leaders to try and save them from Rome, to no avail of course. BELOW in verses 7-8 Jesus tries to emphasis this is NOT THE END by painting the Disciples a picture of the many many, many things that must happen before THE END or 70th week comes, this verses 7-8 are barley germane to the Olivet Discourse, yet people try to say its all about the end times, its not, its about the Disciples lives on this earth, and how they are to help a fledgling church survive, and Jesus saw the most danger coming from the 70 AD events.

If the Disciples had rushed back thinking, this is Jesus come again, they would have been killed, and of course the fledgling church would have rushed back to fight for their Lord with them, and the Disciples and the Church would have all died and the church would have been killed off in its infancy !!  So, Jesus had to give the disciples a fool-proof understanding, so he is like, no, no, no, do not rush back when you hear of these wars and false christs, that will not be me, the END (70th week) is much, much, much later on, there will be much famine, many, many wars, and many many earthquakes and much pestilence and it will get progressively worse over time like the Birth Pangs of a woman. So, all verses 7-8 is, is a demonstration of (GET THIS) why the END is much, much later on down the road, it s not the 70 AD events. Jesus paints them a picture they have to understand, but alas, verse 14 is the 100 percent fool-proof understanding the Disciples need to help the church survive past 70 AD. }}}

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

{{{ As I stated, we have people who place ball the emphases on what could be considered "throw away verses" by Jesus, because it really has very little to do with what Jesus lesson is here to the Disciples, Jesus needs to get them to understand that 70 AD is NOT THE END (70th week events) and thus it is not him returning again, so he shows them the many things that must happen and how things get progressively worse over time, he does so with verses 7-8. But as Jesus warns in vs. 6, THE END IS NOT YET (70th week) but is by and by. Then Jesus goes into the details of how the Disciples will all die, save John. }}]

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:(Disciples) and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

{{{ This is really simple stuff when we do not think its END TIME FULFILLED Prophecy. This was Jesus FOREWARNING the Disciples they would all be killed for his names sake. Why? So they would be ready when it came, vs. 13 shows why Jesus forewarned them, Jesus did not wanting them turning into another Judas, so telling them ahead of time had them prepared to die for their Lord and for the Churches example, after all we overcame the World/Satan by our blood Amen (Rev. 12). Who is THEY in  verse 9? who are these false prophets? Well, who was the Culture Clash against?

The false gods served by the peoples, namely Jupiter, Zeus and many other gods the Romans and Greeks worshiped. It was an Oracle (Woman) of a false god who made a Decree that made the Romans start slaughtering the Christians, because the Christian God Jesus was taking away all of their patrons that they had built up over much time, their gods (Demons) were no match for the Gospel, which was going to cleanse the Western Civilizations up via the Good News of Jesus Christ, Amen. And the Church did just that over time, we gave the Roman Beast the "Mortal Wound" and Rome became the Conveyor Belt of the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the whole world. So, the Disciples were despised and hated of many nations who had what? State Sponsored [False] Religion. The MANY who were offended and betrayed one another is more than likely half stepping Christians who were lukewarm in their faith, once the killing started, they started ratting out their brothers in the faith. And because they loved sin, their hearts were cold, and thus they killed the Christians at the stake via fire. }}}

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

{{{ This is Jesus warning the Disciples after he just told them they would all be killed that they MUST ENDURE until the end [of their lives]. Like Paul says, its an endurance race we run, not a sprint. Now BELOW, the most important verse, the one that 100 percent proves the Church is not on this earth for the 70th week end times. }}}

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

{{{ So, Jesus makes 100 percent sure the Disciples CAN NOT BE DECIEVED, and rush back to the 70 AD events, where they would be killed along with the fledgling church, he does so by telling them the Temples Destruction Events and Wars will not be THE END (70th week vents) and then in verse 14 he gives them an understanding of what has to happen before THE END comes. He says the Gospel must be preached unto ALL THE WORLD, and the Disciples knew about India, China and the Scythians (Russia today) so they knew 100 percent they would never reach those nations with the Gospel during their lives, so they knew 100 percent they would never see Jesus Second Coming, so they knew 100 percent that 70 AD was not the 70th week events. But alas, Jesus tells us when the 70th week will come, when the Gospel has been preached unto ALL THE WORLD, only then can the 70th week come, and what is the Churches Mission on this earth? Yo take the Gospel unto the world, thus our mission is complete, thus we are no longer need on this earth during the 70th week, thus we will be raptured to Heaven pre 70th week. Its sad people really, really think Matt. 24:4-14 is about THE END TIMES, and the Seals during the 7oth week, it is not. }}}

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Triton57 said:

You would seem to agree then that Yeshua is speaking of Daniel 12:1, 11 in regards to the unparalleled time that begins after Michael stands. Would you also agree that in addition to a desolating abomination, the daily is taken away as well?

It is taken away first, 1290 days before the AD is placed; explained in detail here:

 

11 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I also understand the daily (H8548 - tāmîḏ) and sacrifice (H2077 - zeḇaḥ) and oblation (H4503 -minḥâ) aren't the same words in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 9:27 respectively. Does that mean they aren't conveying the same message?

Yes. No blood sacrifice/zebach is ever mentioned in the End Times before the Parousia.

11 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Anyway, do you have a historical fulfillment that requires the 70th week to be completed already? What was the purpose of the 70 weeks prophecy for Israel and Jerusalem in your perspective? You would posit that all things were fulfilled in the 70 weeks prophecy or that God is now done dealing with Israel?

The 70th week was fulfilled in every detail during the Jewish War of 66-73. Thoroughly explained here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

and here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

[Revelation Man]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:15 PM, Triton57 said:

The only real difference as far as timing between you as I as I understand it revolves around the catching away being before the week or at the sixth seal, the DOTL or the day of Christ for believers. It is a time of both destruction and wrath for those who reject Yeshua and the blessed hope for them that love God. Both of our views are before that time, yours is just 3.5 years before and mine is immediately before and realistically part of it.

Again, the Sixth Seal is mere Symbolic Imagery, there is no Sixth Seal Judgment, its Prophetic in nature, just like Joel 2:31.

On 9/4/2023 at 8:31 PM, Triton57 said:

I don't think I had thought about taking the destruction of Jerusalem as anything but sudden destruction. It can't be the full 42 months of his reign because the DOTL doesn't start until after the start of the great tribulation, but it could be close I suppose. I'm not sure I'm ready to make that connection personally though.

The Troubles of Jacob lasts for 42 months, God's Wrath lasts for the exact same 42 months. How long does the Woman (Israel) in Rev. 12 hide for ? 1260 days. Jerusalem is not going to be destroyed, Jesus will rule from there, it will be conquered, but not destroyed.

The DOTL begins it all, the Anti-Christ can not go forth until the Asteroid hits.

On 9/4/2023 at 8:31 PM, Triton57 said:

Do you think people with no belief when confronted with death will not worship the beast, whether or not they mean it in their hearts? Regardless the mark is the second death sentence for them that do.

I do not think that is what God is saying in Rev. 13, he is saying men can only serve 2 masters, you chose God or the World, which is Satan. The reason this has to be nuanced is God is showing us the whole of mankind, the Anti-Christ is only the E.U. President and they only Conquer the Mediterranean Sea Region, its a myth that he rules the Whole World. Yes, those in his area will be mandated to worship the Beast as GOD or die, but not elsewhere. 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:31 PM, Triton57 said:

Just like the tightening of the noose currently underway through systems like potentially FedNow or other such interconnected systems, I think the mark may take the framework being built today to be used for the dragon's purposes. They're trying to be able to track and restrict purchases based on social agendas while at the same time looking to further digitize currency so bartering will be all that's left for those who don't buy into the system. Taking control of that and turning the knobs from the popular social agenda of the day to anyone without the mark would likely be a small task once that infrastructure is in place.

Yes, tat will happen in the E.U. and the Mediterranean Sea Region he conquers for sure. The Americas will be the 1/3 that burns however. Tat is why the Kings are all kings of the East that come against God in Babylon, both Americas will be desroyed by fires. 

[Triton57]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:31 AM, Revelation Man said:

Quote

I agree the bride must depart before the DOTL and the antichrist must both confirm the covenant with many and later declare himself God in the temple before the DOTL.

This was Paul's understanding but remember, "Here a little there a little" is a way of studying for a reason. Paul was not per se called unto Prophecy, I think Daniel and John were more-so called unto Prophecy and of course Jesus would be the ultimate authority on Prophecy. So  what do those three say? Well, tbh, it seems they do not say this even is a "Man" per se but an IMAGE instead.

 

I try not to discern between the authors who was called into prophecy or not.

 

2 Peter 1:19-21

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

I believe it is critical to take each one at their word, them each being guided by the Spirit. In many cases the combination of different perspectives being told of the same prophecy enlarge our understanding because God is outside of time and knows all. This is the epitome of "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little," trust all God's Word and verify.

[Triton57]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:31 AM, Revelation Man said:

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

{{{ Notice this  passage above says the Anti-Christ CAUSES the Sacrifice to be taken away (This is Jesus Worship being forbidden by the way) and the tribute to stop, so it is something the Anti-Christ for sure AT LEAST causes to happen }}}

 

Where do you get from scripture that the sacrifice being taken away is Jesus worship being forbidden?

[Triton57]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:41 PM, Revelation Man said:

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand:}

{{{ Jesus infers this is an Image STANDING in the temple where ot ought not to be standing, he never describes this as a Man standing there, as a matter of fact, Jesus knows the 1290 AoD happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ is even allowed to go forth conquering at the 1260 events }}}

 

I would say Yeshua infers that the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place. I wouldn't say this means the abomination of desolation is not a man of sin declaring himself to be God. Would you say that Paul stating that he is sitting in the temple is not accurate because Yeshua says he stands in the temple? Is it possible that while spewing his blasphemies that he may stand as well?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

He is officially "revealed" when he is allowed to, at a point in time defined by God when the one that withholds is taken out of the way. He that withholds is explicitly doing so to reveal him at his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:6

 

It seems to me from scripture the point of the abomination of desolation is idolatry desecrating the temple of God. Historically we saw in 167 BC a physical idol was placed in the temple to be worshipped, in the future a man of sin will idolize himself above God and demand everyone else does as well. The point is the desecration of holy space. Will the third temple be considered holy by God? I don't know, but I don't think it really matters because the Spirit has told us in prophecy that God considers it blasphemy for the man of sin to declare himself God, wherever he is, but doing it in what represents God's temple while also stopping the daily sacrifice seems like a pretty definitive time that points to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet and set to be revealed at a particular time. That's good enough for me.

 

I think there's another possibility regarding the 1,290 days and 42 months/3 1/2 years. Both start at the abomination of desolation when the antichrist declares himself god in the temple and demands those in Judea who do not agree are killed. From the AoD to Christ's return in 42 months.

 

Israel, for 30 or so days after the AoD are being killed and fleeing Judea until they are taken to the wilderness and protected for 1,260 days from the dragon.

 

This means Christ returns 42 months after the AoD and 30 days later Israel comes out of the wilderness into the Promised Land.

[Triton57]

On 9/5/2023 at 7:12 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth(earth means Israel, Sea means Gentile nation); and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. {A Jewish traitor, he will be a False Prophet like unto Jason}

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. {The WOUND was to the 7 Headed Figurative Beast, Rome was the Wound, the A.C. by Conquering Israel will "Heal the Wound".}

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

{{{ So, Daniel 9:27 says he CAUSES this AoD to come to pass, but this is why knowing the AoD's true timing is 30 days before the Beast comes to power is so very, very important. The 1335, 1290 and 1260 are the KEY to all end time prophetic time lines being understood !! So , "IF WE KNOW" the 1290 is 30 days before the 1260 we therefore "KNOW" that it can not be the Anti-Christ physically standing in the temple of God !! See why its so important?

 

I agree, I think he may play the part of false prophecy, attempting to fulfill the role of the forerunner to the false messiah, Elijah the prophet making way. He called fire down from heaven too. Although he is also said to exercise the power of the first beast before him so maybe it won't play out quite like that.

 

Malachi 4:5-6

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

Revelation 13:11-14

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

I can't say I "KNOW" the 1,290 is 30 days before the 1,260 because according to scripture the abomination of desolation is the common point between Daniel and Yeshua, with the man of sin declaring himself God linked by Paul and the unparalleled great tribulation Yeshua, Jeremiah, and Daniel all agree on. If the AoD is the central point then separating the 1,290 and 1,260 is speculation based on the idea that it's not a man in the temple, but the image of the beast.

 

Also, the first mention of an image related to the beast is when the false prophet tells them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the beast and that he has power to give life to the image of the beast so it speaks and causes any that don't worship it to be killed. I have no doubt the image will be part of this time after the revealing, perhaps coincidentally with it, but there's no mention of timing related to it there. If the man of sin is going to be revealed, I expect this proud and haughty man to make himself personally the center of that revealing as Paul states and rely on the image only after he's desolated the temple. The revealing is related to him in the temple showing that he's God as I see it.

 

Revelation 14's interlude I think may be about the time of the transition from the time of Jacob's trouble in Judea where the dragon is going after the woman in Revelation 12:13-16 to the protection of the woman and catching away of the bride before God's wrath is poured out. You see in that chapter the two harvests where the earth is reaped and then the vine of the earth is gathered and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God symbolizing the time after the harvest of the bride. It's in this chapter we see the 144,000 further described and the angel with the Gospel stating the hour of God's judgment is come and Babylon is fallen. At this same time another angel warns if any worship the beast, his image and receive the mark, will drink the wine of the wrath of God.

 

Revelation 15 shows just before the seven bowls filling up the wrath of God are poured out, those that had gotten victory over the beast, image, mark, and number of his name singing. Either they have overcome him in the way of 1 John 2:12-14 and are the caught up bride or this is a vision outside of time since Revelation 20:4-5 states that it's after Christ's return that those killed after the catching away during the tribulation are resurrected in addition to the beast given power over the saints for 42 months.

 

All of this, with possibly the exception of the 144,000 and overcomers of the beast being a vision out of time to describe these more, are at the transition period when God's wrath has arrived and the warnings are going out. In my understanding, this would be the same time the 144,000 are protected and sealed and the bride is taken before the wrath at the sixth seal. I believe this indicates that initial 30 days or so of Jacob's trouble is brought on suddenly by the dragon realizing he has little time and going after the woman only to have her protected from him. Then for the remaining 1,230 days or so of his reign of the earth, the image and the mark and the tribulation of the saints left behind and shut out of the marriage (Matthew 25:1-13) begins, the hour of temptation when they will have to decide whether to lose their life to save it or save their life and lose it and which part of the church is cast into. Revelation 2:22

 

I believe Revelation 12:7-16 speaks to the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble when the restrainer is removed, allowing the revealing of the man of sin and the dragon is cast from heaven and give the beast his power and great authority. The false prophet gets his power and authority from the beast.

 

Revelation 13:4-5

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

 

I think the idolatry all comes back to the dragon using the man of sin puppet to get the worship he wants to steal from God, the revealing of the man of sin when he is in the temple declaring himself to be God.

[Triton57]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:41 PM, Revelation Man said:

Then Jesus tells us when you see the AoD standing in the holy place, as spoke by Daniel (who got it from the Angels & Jesus/Man in Linen) and his instruction in verses 16-21 is to flee Judea and not look back. Question, is it logical that an all knowing God would give a WARNING SIGN to Israel to Flee AFTER the Beast or Anti-Christ had already conquered them? The 1290 is not the Beast/A.C. its the False Prophet making an IMAGE as Rev. 13 shows us. So, the Jews have 30 days to flee unto the Petra/Bozrah safe zone before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel to become The End Time Beast. So, it gets nuanced over the years and everyone goes with Paul's statement over the Jesus, Daniel and John. }}}

 

I agree the remnant Jews will have 30 days to flee to the wilderness, it's just the 1,290 and 1,260 are shifted to both start at the AoD. I do believe God provided a warning to the remnant Jews BEFORE the beast and that's why they flee.

 

Matthew 24:15-16

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

I believe as the believers in Israel see the forewarnings God gave they will be, along with the two witnesses, essentially telling the future that will happen when this man allowing the rebuilding of the temple and defeating Israel's enemies declares himself God in the temple. Those with ears and the believers in Judea will heed the warning given almost 2,000 years before it happened. Those who do not heed the warning will be the natural branches cut off in unbelief or killed before they can escape. I would say that is significant forewarning.

 

Revelation 12:14-16

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

 

I believe Israel will be supernaturally escaping by the will of God. The eagle is used many times to refer to swiftness and indeed a very similar kind of situation.

 

Exodus 19:3-5

And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

 

I think to the Jews who have just gone through a revival of belief in the Old Covenant will be recognizing these and will eventually turn to Yeshua and accept Him.