Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

 

 

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

All of this is correct, but in all of the following, ...

He descends from heaven then the living meet the dead in the air...He didn't descend from the air so the living could meet him in the air...heaven and the air are not the same thing

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, AdHoc.

 

Sorry, but this understanding of man is incorrect: The man was NOT created "tripartite." He was made of FLESH and God made that flesh to BREATHE and in breathing, he BECAME a "living soul," that is, a "living, air-breathing, creature!"

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): 
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice: the text does NOT say "the LORD God formed THE BODY OF THE MAN of the dust of the ground." It says "The LORD God formed MAN of the dust of the ground." The man IS the body!

Here's the Hebrew of this verse:

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

This is transliterated into ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayyaah:

Translated word-for-word, this becomes:

7 And-formed YHWH God [d.o.->]-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed in-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] into-a-breathing-creature living:

Notice that the word "ruwach" meaning "wind," or "breath" by analogy, does not even appear in this verse!

The "breath" - the "wind" (Hebrew: ruwach) - of an individual is what keeps the body (Hebrew: geviyah) a "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh, an "air-breathing creature"), but it was started breathing by a "puff" of air. Thus, the "soul" is the COMBINATION of the "body" and the "breath." When a person dies, he or she no longer breathes and ceases to be a "soul." He ceases to be an "air-breathing creature!"

There's NO SUCH THING as an "immortal soul" apart from the body! It's not until God RESURRECTS the individual, re-creating the body, to be an immortal body, that the person becomes an "immortal soul!"

Sorry, but this, too, is wrong. The resurrection that occurred in Matthew 27:52-53 was a simple restarting of a person's body breathing again. These individuals, like Eleazar ("Lazarus"), would die again; they were NOT resurrected to NEW life! The ONLY ONE who had such a resurrection was Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") Himself:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (SINGULAR) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (SINGULAR); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Just because "firstfruits" has an "s" at the end, does NOT mean that the word is plural! Drawn out, He is the "first of the fruits," and in Greek, it is the word "aparchee" (using "ee" for an eta), a singular noun.

This is only true IF one is NOT using the word "hadees" as in Greek mythology! The word means the "unseen" and was frequently used to translate the Hebrew word "sh'owl" (or "sheol"), which means, "asked about."  Why would ANY NT writer or speaker use such a word as in the Greek pantheon?! It does NOT refer to the "Underworld," a "place where the god Hades ruled." It's talking about the GRAVE, which is PRECISELY what Peter was talking about.

It sounds like you have it right, here. One should remember, however, that we live in a THREE-dimensional world, with TIME making a fourth dimension. One cannot represent that accurately on a two-dimensional chart, where one of the dimensions is used for the passage of time.

Again, since "ouranos" means "the sky," and the ablative case in Greek has the same ending as the genitive case, then "hee basileia toon ouranoon" means "the kingdom from the skies." It's the Kingdom that comes down to earth when the KING comes down to earth.

So, no, this "judgment" is also upon the earth, and this "judgment" is not a true judgment. It is simply whether any of those "ten virgins" are READY to go in! (This parable is in Matthew 25, verses 1 through 13, as part of the Olivet Discourse.)

I believe you are EXACTLY RIGHT here!

I don't believe that there are ANY other "men" above the sky right now. We frankly do NOT know what happened to Chanowkh ("Enoch") or to "Eliyahuw" ("Elijah") after they disappeared, but we DO know that it was written that ...

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (rescue).

So, it's not right to ASSUME that they are present in the New Jerusalem, as Yeeshuwa` is.

While there are 2 GENERAL Resurrections yet to come, it's also important to remember that Yeeshuwa` said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life!" There will be resurrections throughout the Millennium, and possibly more after that! After all, the leaves of the Tree of Life are for "the healing of the nations!" I think we generally have too broad a belief in a "Heaven." We're told,

Revelation 21:1-9 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = a "sky new") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: ho prootos ouranos = "the first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of-the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." [Yeeshuwa` talking ABOUT God.]

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new." [GOD talking.]

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful!" [Yeeshuwa` telling Yochanan to write!]

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." [GOD talking.]

I'm flattered that you took so much time and effort to reply. Thank you. And thank you for going into the detail you did. Few can do this.

My answer is as follows.

In Genesis 2:7 God forms man from the dust. That is one thing. Then God breathes. the breath of God gives vitality BOTH temporal and eternal (Jn.20:22). God's breath is the second thing. The result of this action on God's part was a SOUL. Because the soul of man never existed before and came into being wit this action, it is "created". Thus, in Isaiah 47:3 the inspired record shows three separate actions to make man.

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Notwithstanding the wording of Genesis 2:7, the three parts of man are used consistently throughout scripture. Thus, when Paul prays for the Thessalonians that they may be kept alive to the rapture, he prays that they will be kept "whole". The "whole" man is spirit, soul and body - according to the text in 5:23.

At His death, our Lord Jesus sent His spirit to the Father, His soul descended to Hades, and His body was placed in a tomb. These are then three distinct parts each with a different destination.

We all have our views on things, but I would not say that "Hades" is Greek mythology. It is the divinely inspired record of the place of the souls of dead men. According the Acts Chapter 2 our Lord Jesus was there, and David was still there as Peter spoke.

The spirit of man is also a PLACE. Man's design is identical to the Temple. the body is the outer court, the soul is the Holy Place and the spirit is the Holy of Holies. When a man believes and confesses, God enters the man - but only the spirit (Jn.3.6). In John 4:24 it replaces Mt. Gerizim (a PLACE) for the Samaritans and it re-PLACES Mt Moriah for Israel.

In 1st Corinthians 5 a brother is accused of incest. With Paul's authority among them, he recommends the death penalty - for a specific reason. The reason; To preserve the Lord's holiness in the face of a sin WITHIN the body (1st Cor.6:18-20).

All this points to a Tripartite man with a SOUL caught between two warring entities - the spirit versus the flesh (Gal.5:17). 

[Diaste]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:03 PM, transmogrified said:

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

Or....Jesus is coming with His 'holy ones', which are the angels of heaven, in force, to rescue the elect. 

 

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Or....Jesus is coming with His 'holy ones', which are the angels of heaven, in force, to rescue the elect. 

It’s not “OR” all his angels, but “ALL” his holy ones.. saints and angels are both translated holy ones so he comes with all his holy ones would be all the holy angels and all his holy saints…The point being he brings those that sleep in Jesus with him-those that sleep in Jesus are resurrected saints-not angels

[transmogrified]

The thing I was wanting to show was that in order for all the resurrected saints to come back with Jesus they must first all ascend up to heaven.. meaning they have to get up there before they can come down… The bride includes both old and New Testament saints and she descends down from heaven… the bride is not angels but saints … 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It’s not “OR” all his angels, but “ALL” his holy ones.. saints and angels are both translated holy ones so he comes with all his holy ones would be all the holy angels and all his holy saints…The point being he brings those that sleep in Jesus with him-those that sleep in Jesus are resurrected saints-not angels

But it solves the problem of how 'trib saints get up there' to come back with Jesus. They don't. The holy ones are the angels, the elect are who is rescued, also holy ones, but not the great army. 

It's possible, but I don't recall, that the elect saints are likened to the same ones that come back with Jesus in Rev 19. 

The elect saints are likened to an army of followers, but I don't remember seeing them as akin to an army that goes into battle.

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's possible, but I don't recall, that the elect saints are likened to the same ones that come back with Jesus in Rev 19.

They that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful… these are saints ..not angels..  the bride is described as both old and New Testament saints.. God does not marry a physical building made up of gates and foundations made up of literal precious stones… 

The point is the bride does not fit the pre trib description as being only saints who lived from Pentecost until before the tribulation—- Total fabrication— 

When God showed John the bride it was NOT described as  - “And I saw the bride- part of the saints descending down from heaven… yea, even those who lived from Pentecost till before the rapture…”ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 
 

ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… in order to come back with Jesus you have to in immortal bodies… Pre trib does not even have all of trib saints changed and none of them ascend up because they allegedly missed the rapture.. all this is false… 

The bride is all the saints and they all descended down from heaven meaning they all had to get up there first… 

And yes the saints are called “ The armies that were in heaven” and yes they were called and chosen and faithful and yes he comes with ten thousands of his saints  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The fine linen she was clothed in is the righteousness of the saints and those armies that followed him were clothed in fine linen clean and white- saints - not angels 

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

They are not called armies for no reason… 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

They that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful… these are saints ..not angels..  the bride is described as both old and New Testament saints.. God does not marry a physical building made up of gates and foundations made up of literal precious stones… 

I know. It sounds strange, doesn't it?

Yet,

Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.

Where is the bride described as OT and NT saints? I can't even find the word string 'bride of Christ' in any version I search. I do find 'bride of the Lamb' but only in Rev 19 and Rev 20.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The point is the bride does not fit the pre trib description as being only saints who lived from Pentecost until before the tribulation—- Total fabrication— 

The conclusions of pretrib are all fabrications. imo.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When God showed John the bride it was NOT described as  - “And I saw the bride- part of the saints descending down from heaven… yea, even those who lived from Pentecost till before the rapture…”ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 

True. It was the holy city of Jerusalem.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… in order to come back with Jesus you have to in immortal bodies… Pre trib does not even have all of trib saints changed and none of them ascend up because they allegedly missed the rapture.. all this is false… 

Agree.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The bride is all the saints and they all descended down from heaven meaning they all had to get up there first… 

And yes the saints are called “ The armies that were in heaven” and yes they were called and chosen and faithful and yes he comes with ten thousands of his saints  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

In Jude those saints are 'hagios' so it's ambiguous. Angels are also dressed in white linen.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The fine linen she was clothed in is the righteousness of the saints and those armies that followed him were clothed in fine linen clean and white- saints - not angels 

"For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints."

Angels are also dressed in white.

And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.  John 20

"And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen,  Rev 15

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

They are not called armies for no reason… 

I would need to have the connection made that shows the elect saints are a fighting force and that a great war, such as the one you reference above, is in their destiny.

From Rev 2-3 I see a whole lot of the destiny of the saints and nothing in there says the elect saints are going to be returning with Jesus from heaven to fight the bloodiest battle that has ever occurred in all history. 

Like in Rev 20 where it's said the ones who faced the beast live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, no warring is mentioned. That would have been a good spot to mention it.

Or in Rev 7 when the destiny of the saints is described.

Or in Rev 11 where the reward for the servants is described.

Just saying, I do not see the connection. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Diaste

[transmogrified]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:52 AM, Diaste said:

I know. It sounds strange, doesn't it?

Yet,

Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.

 

So here God is showing John the bride and then he describes her as a city...but the details of the city describes in an analogy what the bride is made up...she (the bride of Christ) has 12 foundations and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb...this means New Testament saints...then she is shown to have 12 gates and on the twelve gates are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel...this is showing Old Testament saints...but see, this is the BRIDE, the one and only BRIDE of Christ...pre trib attempts at the impossible of making God have two brides which is preposterous....Paul said there is ONE BODY...this is even more clear when looking at the Olive tree analogy given by Paul...Jesus said 'I am the true vine, and ye are the branches...' WHEN did he say this? Did he say you will BE the branches after my death, burial and resurrection? Of course not...Even in the analogy Paul gave he said Israel was the natural branches and they were broken off because of unbelief...do you see that? Pre trib and others point to the olive tree as if Israel is the tree and we are somehow grafted into Israel...NO...NO...NO...absolutely not...we are heirs together with Israel...the commonwealth of Israel... JESUS IS THE VINE...NOT ISRAEL!!!

So what does that mean? It means the true believers of the Old Testament were IN CHRIST EVEN BEFORE WE WERE...as it is easy to see we were LATER grafted in, but the point is, what were we grafted into? We were grafted INTO CHRIST, the same JESUS CHRIST that they were broken off of because of their unbelief...

But anyway, this is one of the reasons why it can be said that because they were the natural branches and were in Christ back then it is also apparent they died in Christ, just as they were living in Christ...

This is also seen when they are grafted back into the vine at the second coming...it says God will pour out upon them the spirit of grace and supplication and BY ACCEPTING JESUS AT THAT TIME, THEY ARE AGAIN GRAFTED INTO THE SAME JESUS, THE SAME TRUE VINE, THE SAME OLIVE TREE,  THAT THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FROM...

So rather than having two brides, we have ONE TREE and two branches...this eliminates all the confusion...and Paul said he would not have us ignorant of this mystery, lest we be wise in our own conceits...and guess what has happened because of being ignorant of this mystery? We have a massive amount of people who are wise in their own conceits.

ONE BRIDE, ONE CHURCH, ONE BODY...and we can see even with what Paul said that we are what? We are all baptized into that one body...we are all grafted into that that one body that already existed before Jesus came and died on the cross.

So seeing we have ONLY ONE BRIDE consisting of both Old and New Testament saints, it would only make sense that John saw ONE BRIDE that had 12 gates and 12 foundations...not one bride having 12 gates and another bride having 12 foundations...but as ridiculous as this sounds, this is just one more fallacy that shows up because of injecting a rapture into the picture before the time...you end up having two comings, two judgments, an additional trip up to heaven, Jesus coming with only part of the saints, some of the saints are not changed at all, and some of them do not ascend up to heaven...

On 10/11/2023 at 1:52 AM, Diaste said:

Where is the bride described as OT and NT saints? I can't even find the word string 'bride of Christ' in any version I search. I do find 'bride of the Lamb' but only in Rev 19 and Rev 20.

Rev. 22:9-14

 

On 10/11/2023 at 1:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 10/10/2023 at 8:53 AM, transmogrified said:

When God showed John the bride it was NOT described as  - “And I saw the bride- part of the saints descending down from heaven… yea, even those who lived from Pentecost till before the rapture…”ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 

True. It was the holy city of Jerusalem.

Yes, in this setting God specifically tells John 'I will show you the bride, the lambs wife...and then he sees this city...it is not a physical building he is marrying...his wife, or his people, is being described as a city...

On 10/11/2023 at 1:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 10/10/2023 at 8:53 AM, transmogrified said:

The bride is all the saints and they all descended down from heaven meaning they all had to get up there first… 

And yes the saints are called “ The armies that were in heaven” and yes they were called and chosen and faithful and yes he comes with ten thousands of his saints  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

In Jude those saints are 'hagios' so it's ambiguous. Angels are also dressed in white linen.

Yes, so the word 'hagios' can be misleading in the sense that it allegedly carries the meaning of 'angels' rather than 'saints.' But the word 'hagios' is one transliteration of 'holy' or 'saint' but there is a difference between a transliteration and a translation...a different translation implies a different meaning, whereas a transliteration is a grammatical construct making it applicable to a receptor language...but the meaning stays the same...

For example, look in Strongs on the various transliterations of this word...

Strong's Greek 40
235 Occurrences

ἁγία — 14 Occ.
ἅγιαι — 1 Occ.
ἁγίαις — 3 Occ.
ἁγίαν — 6 Occ.
ἁγίας — 3 Occ.
ἅγιε — 1 Occ.
ἁγίῳ — 26 Occ.
ἁγίων — 39 Occ.
ἁγιωτάτῃ — 1 Occ.
ἅγιοι — 8 Occ.
ἁγίοις — 19 Occ.
ἅγιον — 47 Occ.
ἅγιος — 13 Occ.
ἁγίου — 42 Occ.
ἁγίους — 12 Occ.

The above is from Bible Hub website but it shows these transliterations of the same word.. one definition is 'holy' and the other definition is 'saint'...it is never used in and of itself as a definition of an 'angel' rather the meaning of 'holy' is used in connection to what is referring to, such as his  'holy prophets,' in contrast to there were 'false prophets, or the 'holy spirit,' in contrast to an 'unclean spirit,'

Strongs has 'Hagios'  defined as:

most holy, saint.

From hagos (an awful thing) (compare hagnos, thalpo); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

This is how the word is translated in the NASB:

Holy (92), holy (62), Holy of Holies (1), holy one (5), holy ones (1), holy place (7), most holy (1), saint (1), saints (59), saints' (1), sanctuary (2).

You can see in both versions, the word 'hagios' itself is never translated 'angel' as angel is a different word, the word 'hagios' is either translated 'saint' or 'holy'...it might be self explanatory but there could be 'evil angels', but there is never an 'evil saint.'

So the one description of the bride with 12 foundations and 12 gates would represent both Jew and Gentile believers, the scripture in Jude would include believers even before Abraham such as Abel and Noah.

So the reason the scripture in Jude is explicitly saints is because there is no other object or entity being described, in other words in Jude it does not say 'the Lord will come with all his holy (adjective) 'angels', but rather he will come with all his 'saints,' which word needs no adjective as the word 'saint' is already descriptive of what kind of person it would be.

It is not to say that there are no angels coming with him, as Matthew 25 does say 'when the Son of man shall come, and all the holy angels with him...' but in Jude it is expressly stating 'saints' and who will be executing judgment and convincing the ungodly...

For example the first transliteration on the list would be 

ἁγία  which occurs 14 times. This is used as an adjective describing a noun or a noun phrase...

1) HOLY ground...Acts 7:33

2) HOLY branches...Romans 11:16

3) HOLY calling...2 Tim. 1:9

4) HOLY place...Heb. 9:12

The next one on the list would be ἅγιαι and would only occur one time but again being used as an adjective describing what kind of woman was being talked about, i.e. a 'holy woman.'

1) 1 Peter 3:5

Here are the transliterations being used as adjectives only, such as a 'holy' person, place or thing:

1) ἁγία

2) ἅγιαι

3) ἁγίαν

4) ἁγίας

5) ἅγιε

6) ἁγίῳ

7) ἁγιωτάτῃ

8) ἅγιος

9) ἁγίου

10)

 

Transliterations used as both an adjective defining a noun and also translated as 'saints:'

1) ἁγίων

2) ἅγιοι

3) ἅγιοι

4) ἅγιοι

5) ἁγίους

The one word in Jude is ἁγίαις and is only used in two other places...

1) Romans 1: 2 "....prophets in the holy scriptures..." The word 'holy' describing an attribute of the scriptures that they were 'holy.'

2) 2 Peter 3:11 "...to be in [all] holy conversation and..." The word 'holy' describing what type of conversation we should have...

But in Jude there is no noun attached to the word ἁγίαις, unless it was added by the translators...as in the following:

ESV - “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

NASB20- “Behold, the Lord has come with [fn]many thousands of His holy ones,

RSV - "Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads,

But we must take some of these versions with a grain of salt, knowing that in order to copyright a version some words must be changed or added and sometimes the words may make a statement more clear with today's English or the chosen word may actually obscure it.

For example if the original wording was he would come with 'someone' and these who he was coming with were also being described as being 'holy' then it could be understood to mean both angels and saints, or just angels, or just saints, but in the absence of the word 'ones' the word would revert to being a noun itself, i.e. he would be referring to 'saints' and no one else. This is not to say he is not coming with angels as well, but this would not be the verse that would show that.

This link in Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/text/jude/1-14.htm shows the word 'ones' in the phrase 'amidst holy ones,' is in brackets meaning it was added by the translators  ....

Text Analysis

Go to Parallel Greek

Strong's Greek English Morphology 4395 [e] Προεφήτευσεν* Proephēteusen Prophesied V-AIA-3S 1161 [e] δὲ de then Conj 2532 [e] καὶ kai also Conj 3778 [e] τούτοις toutois as to these DPro-DMP 1442 [e] ἕβδομος hebdomos [the] seventh Adj-NMS 575 [e] ἀπὸ apo from Prep 76 [e] Ἀδὰμ Adam Adam, N-GMS 1802 [e] Ἑνὼχ Henōch Enoch, N-NMS 3004 [e] λέγων legōn saying: V-PPA-NMS 3708 [e] Ἰδοὺ Idou Behold, V-AMA-2S 2064 [e] ἦλθεν ēlthen has come V-AIA-3S 2962 [e] Κύριος Kyrios [the] Lord N-NMS 1722 [e] ἐν en amidst Prep 40 [e] ἁγίαις hagiais holy [ones] Adj-DFP 3461 [e] μυριάσιν myriasin myriads N-DFP 846 [e] αὐτοῦ, autou of His, PPro-GM3S

Also in Strongs the word [ones] is in brackets

holy [ones]
ἁγίαις (hagiais)
Adjective - Dative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 40: Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. From hagos; sacred.

Also the NASB adds the word 'ones' to their translation then uses the word 'hagios' as an adjective that would then describe these 'ones,' whoever they may be, as being 'holy.'

NASB Lexicon

NASB ©	Greek	Strong's	Origin
[It was] also	καὶ (kai)	2532: and, even, also	a prim. conjunction
about these		3778: this	probably from a redupl. of ho,, used as a demonstrative pronoun
men [that] Enoch,	Ἑνὼχ (enōch)	1802: Enoch, a patriarch	of Hebrew origin Chanok
[in] the seventh	ἕβδομος (ebdomos)	1442: seventh	ord. from hepta
[generation] from Adam,	Ἀδὰμ (adam)	76: Adam, the first man	of Hebrew origin Adam
prophesied,	Ἐπροφήτευσεν (eprophēteusen)	4395: to foretell, tell forth, prophesy	from prophétés
saying,	λέγων (legōn)	3004: to say	a prim. verb
"Behold,	Ἰδοὺ (idou)	2400: look, behold	from eidon, used as a demonstrative particle
the Lord	κύριος (kurios)	2962: lord, master	from kuros (authority)
came	ἦλθεν (ēlthen)	2064: to come, go	a prim. verb
with many thousands	μυριάσιν (muriasin)	3461: ten thousand, a myriad	from murios
of His holy ones,	ἁγίαις (agiais)	40: sacred, holy	from a prim. root

So what I am getting at, is in the absence of a noun such as 'ones' the word should be left translated as 'saints' and not be made ambiguos by adding the word 'ones' into the phrase, and leave other scriptures to define what role the angels will play in this scenario.

One scripture that might be used to counter that the saints are referred to here is in Isaiah  ...

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

At what seems to be face value no one would be coming with him to execute vengeance, but Jude plainly states he would come WITH then thousands of his saints TO EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL..The enigma is done away with when we read that he is not saying no one came with him, but rather that the people that were not with him were in fact the object of his wrath. Of course this is referring to Armageddon where he slays the armies of the beast and the blood comes up to the horses bridles...as it states, 'of the people there was none with me...for I will tread THEM (the people who were not with him, i.e. the armies of the beast) in mine anger...'

 

In Revelation 19 :19 it also states the beast makes war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.

The one scripture in Revelation 19:14 states the 'armies' (plural) that were in heaven followed him, which seems to imply there would be more than one army, one being the army of saints and the other one of angels...but of course this may be a translator choice of words, because the same word 'army' (singular) is used in Rev. 19: 19. There may be some grammatical reason for one being singular and the other plural, but seeing that both groups are coming with Jesus, it would make sense that they could be referred to as singular and also in the plural.

Also in Psalm 149: 6 it states:

"Let the high praises of God be in their moutb, and a two edged sword in their hand; to execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the juidgment written; this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.'

 

 

[The Light]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:03 PM, transmogrified said:

Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

Yes. There is one rapture for the Church to get up there and a different rapture for the tribulation saints to get up there. The Word is very clear on this though few understand.