The 7th Trump is the Last Trump

[WilliamL]

On 9/2/2023 at 3:38 AM, Diaste said:

I simply have a difficult time finding a last trump after the one and only last trump, in a series of trumps...

Your presumption being that the seven angelic trumpets are the only  trumpets in the End Times that will be part of a series. 

Whereas I say that this eschatos/last (not seventh) God-sounded trumpet is connected to the first God-sounded trumpet of judgement blown on Mount Sinai. As Paul teaches in Heb. 12:8ff.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

[Shilohsfoal]

14 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Your presumption being that the seven angelic trumpets are the only  trumpets in the End Times that will be part of a series. 

Whereas I say that this eschatos/last (not seventh) God-sounded trumpet is connected to the first God-sounded trumpet of judgement blown on Mount Sinai. As Paul teaches in Heb. 12:8ff.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

The day of redemption isnt till Christ comes.

 

²⁷ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

That's when the last trump is blown which is the seventh trump in revelation.Looking at revelation ,them that be in judea not only flee to the mountains but are hiding in the caves of the mountains at the time the saints are sealed in their foreheads.

[WilliamL]

25 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The day of redemption isnt till Christ comes.

 

Which comes at the sixth seal, immediately before the announcement of 'God's wrath is come.'

[Shilohsfoal]

53 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Which comes at the sixth seal, immediately before the announcement of 'God's wrath is come.'

Last time I read revelation 6,it spoke of the wrath of the Lamb and then mentioned the saints being sealed in their foreheads afterward.

But that the order in revelation

Now if you notice,the two witnesses ascend into heaven in a cloud before the 7th Trump is blown.That cloud being the heavens departing as a scroll being rolled together after the 6th seal is opened.

Probably not good news for them seeing they are ascending to heaven without first putting on immortality on a day when the heavens are burning with a fervent heat.

That's going to be painful.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Now if you notice,the two witnesses ascend into heaven in a cloud before the 7th Trump is blown.That cloud being the heavens departing as a scroll being rolled together after the 6th seal is opened.

Probably not good news for them seeing they are ascending to heaven without first putting on immortality on a day when the heavens are burning with a fervent heat.

At the last trumpet all are changed...meaning all the NT saints, the two prophets as well as the OT saints.

The two prophets did not ascend up to heaven in a cloud in fleshly bodies...Paul specifically says that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...that is incorruptible not corruptible...the dead are RAISED incorruptible...not they are going to be made incorruptible sometime after they are raised from the dead...the change happens to both living and the dead at the exact same time...when it says the dead rise first it is meaning they rise up to the air before the living do...

The two prophets laid dead in the streets for 3.5 days...then what happened? The spirit of life from God entered into them and they did what? They stood upon their feet...they were not resurrected and then sometime later given an immortal body...i.e. they did NOT ascend up to heaven in a mortal body...as paul said, the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS IS THE CHANGE THAT HAPPENS TO BOTH THE LIVING AND THE DEAD...THEY ARE BOTH CHANGED AT THE VERY SAME TIME..meaning both groups get immortal bodies at the last trump...not before the last trump, not after the last trump, but AT THE LAST TRUMP...

When it says they rose up to heaven in a cloud and then it says 'and the seventh angel sounded.' does NOT MEAN they rose up before the trumpet sounded...Paul makes it explicitly clear that ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP. So these two witnesses are the dead in Christ..they died just like every mortal being would die...but they are resurrected and changed at exactly the same time everyone else is...at the last trump.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Your presumption being that the seven angelic trumpets are the only  trumpets in the End Times that will be part of a series. 

Whereas I say that this eschatos/last (not seventh) God-sounded trumpet is connected to the first God-sounded trumpet of judgement blown on Mount Sinai. As Paul teaches in Heb. 12:8ff.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

And I think not. The contrast is made by Paul excising the assembly of Mt. Sinai transplanting it with the true assembly in Christ, as your blog states. 

I'm not necessarily saying it's the only trumps but it is the only ones I see in all of eschatological prophecy. It's kinda like unicorns, isn't it? There isn't evidence for unicorns.

If you can find written in the prophecies where there is another series of trumps associated with the end of the age, the coming of Christ and the gathering of the elect, please cite the passages and I'll check it out.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone who can add simple math (you don't want too it seems) can see the Rapture can only be Pre Trib. Before the Seals are ever opened we see the Church in Heaven, Rev. 4:4 and how they got there Rev. 4:1.

No mention of 'church' in the cited passages. I see John going up, I see elders. No vast congregation here.

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

And we see they have the VERY GIFTS Promised to those who OVERCAME in  Rev. 2:10 (Crowns) Rev. 3:5 (White Robes) Rev. 3:20-21 (they sit at God's Throne).

It's logically fallacious to conclude only those who are promised crowns can wear crowns and that equates to only one specific group wearing crowns.

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

And as Rev. 5:9-10 says they are REDEEMED by God (can't be Angels). 

A more accurate reading

Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign upon the earth.

In any case, equating the elders with the congregation just doesn't pan out. 

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

And as 1 Cor. 15 CLEARLY SHOWS, no man save Elijah and Moses, goes to heaven until the Rapture, the Dead RISE FIRST, then the living in Christ arise a blink of an eye later (meaning in essence at the exact same time, AT THE VERY END). So, who are those seen in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened? Well of course it can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Church, the very people we see in Rev. 19 before they get their White Robes and then AFTER they get married to the Lamb they return with Jesus to defeat who? The Beast and all his minions who is still on earth.

Gosh no.

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its merely adding simple math to a simple timeline. However if we get the cart before the horse we can't see clearly. 

Then perhaps you should desist.

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

At the last trumpet all are changed...meaning all the NT saints, the two prophets as well as the OT saints.

The two prophets did not ascend up to heaven in a cloud in fleshly bodies...Paul specifically says that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...that is incorruptible not corruptible...the dead are RAISED incorruptible...not they are going to be made incorruptible sometime after they are raised from the dead...the change happens to both living and the dead at the exact same time...when it says the dead rise first it is meaning they rise up to the air before the living do...

The two prophets laid dead in the streets for 3.5 days...then what happened? The spirit of life from God entered into them and they did what? They stood upon their feet...they were not resurrected and then sometime later given an immortal body...i.e. they did NOT ascend up to heaven in a mortal body...as paul said, the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS IS THE CHANGE THAT HAPPENS TO BOTH THE LIVING AND THE DEAD...THEY ARE BOTH CHANGED AT THE VERY SAME TIME..meaning both groups get immortal bodies at the last trump...not before the last trump, not after the last trump, but AT THE LAST TRUMP...

When it says they rose up to heaven in a cloud and then it says 'and the seventh angel sounded.' does NOT MEAN they rose up before the trumpet sounded...Paul makes it explicitly clear that ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP. So these two witnesses are the dead in Christ..they died just like every mortal being would die...but they are resurrected and changed at exactly the same time everyone else is...at the last trump.

In order as it is written.They ascended into heaven.Then the seventh Trump sounded his horn.If you want to rewrite it,that's up to you.

 

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

In order as it is written.They ascended into heaven.Then the seventh Trump sounded his horn.If you want to rewrite it,that's up to you.

The definition of “then” can mean “at that time” or it can also mean immediately after” so there would be no contradiction of what John wrote with what Paul said in Corinthians.. It other words when it says “then the seventh angel sounded “ it could have been translated “at that time”  the seventh angel sounded.. 

And it is important to realize that when anyone is raised from the dead at the second coming they are raised incorruptible… so when it says they are raised incorruptible it does not mean they are raised in corruptible bodies -corruptible bodies and incorruptible bodies are two different things. The two prophets were raised in incorruptible bodies just like Paul said ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. The change is defined as This mortal MUST put on immortality.. so we are told when this change from mortal to immortality takes place would be at the resurrection of the dead for it states the dead are raised incorruptible .. the two prophets were dead in Christ.. they were raised at the last trump so they were raised incorruptible and ascended up to heaven in glorified bodies that would never die.. what did Jesus say? IN THE RESURRECTION they are as the angels of God in heaven.. WHEN? IN THE RESURRECTION.. That’s how they are raised from the dead - as the angels of heaven who never die.. not at any other point than IN the resurrection… The two prophets were partakes of the first resurrection and no one is raised in corruption… ALL ARE CHANGED FROM MORTAL TO IMMORTALITY   

 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

The definition of “then” can mean “at that time” or it can also mean immediately after” so there would be no contradiction of what John wrote with what Paul said in Corinthians.. It other words when it says “then the seventh angel sounded “ it could have been translated “at that time”  the seventh angel sounded.. 

And it is important to realize that when anyone is raised from the dead at the second coming they are raised incorruptible… so when it says they are raised incorruptible it does not mean they are raised in corruptible bodies -corruptible bodies and incorruptible bodies are two different things. The two prophets were raised in incorruptible bodies just like Paul said ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. The change is defined as This mortal MUST put on immortality.. so we are told when this change from mortal to immortality takes place would be at the resurrection of the dead for it states the dead are raised incorruptible .. the two prophets were dead in Christ.. they were raised at the last trump so they were raised incorruptible and ascended up to heaven in glorified bodies that would never die.. what did Jesus say? IN THE RESURRECTION they are as the angels of God in heaven.. WHEN? IN THE RESURRECTION.. That’s how they are raised from the dead - as the angels of heaven who never die.. not at any other point than IN the resurrection… The two prophets were partakes of the first resurrection and no one is raised in corruption… ALL ARE CHANGED FROM MORTAL TO IMMORTALITY   

 

I'm the person who said "then".Your quoting me.The bible says 

 

^"14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

This verse devides the second woe from the third.The two witnesses ascend before this verse and the seventh Trump sounds after it.

 

 

 

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.